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Anarchy in the real world

Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/20/2011 4:44:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have a question (well, two) to the few Anarchists we have left here on DDO, regardless if you are AnCap or AnCom.

Somalia has been in a state of anarchy for the past 20 years now. Since their government fell in 1991, there has not been a replacement government established (currently, we can ignore the TFG that impotently formed in 2004, but even if we count that, there was 13 years of nothing before that).

The question that I have, is did Somalia form an Anarchist Capitalist (or Communist) society?

If not, why did one not form?

If Anarchy does not naturally rest in equilibrium as AnCap (or AnCom), what safe guards does AnCap (or AnCom) have to prevent it from slipping into a somalia type of anarchy?

Similary, we can ask anti-anarchists (such as myself, I'm not familiar enough with Somalia to give an answer, but I've started researching), if people naturally form governments, why has no government formed? Or at least, why is it taking so long?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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9/20/2011 5:00:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:44:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I have a question (well, two) to the few Anarchists we have left here on DDO, regardless if you are AnCap or AnCom.

Somalia has been in a state of anarchy for the past 20 years now. Since their government fell in 1991, there has not been a replacement government established (currently, we can ignore the TFG that impotently formed in 2004, but even if we count that, there was 13 years of nothing before that).


The question that I have, is did Somalia form an Anarchist Capitalist (or Communist) society?

If not, why did one not form?

If Anarchy does not naturally rest in equilibrium as AnCap (or AnCom), what safe guards does AnCap (or AnCom) have to prevent it from slipping into a somalia type of anarchy?


Similary, we can ask anti-anarchists (such as myself, I'm not familiar enough with Somalia to give an answer, but I've started researching), if people naturally form governments, why has no government formed? Or at least, why is it taking so long?

My answer would be that the time frame of something being "long" of "short" is relative. You may personally think that 13 years is long politically or socially, when I think it is short. The fact is that some group will raise to control others at some point. This is probably already the reality in Somalia I'm sure. Officially recognizing such a group as an official Somalian government is a different story however. The land (Somalia) that the old authority governed is now up for grabs. Each one of those areas are now governed differently and in reality the authority of land and it's borders have changed. New group authority will rise and claim a part, parts, or all of the land once known as Somalia eventually. The details of how this takes place and the time frame in which it takes place will unfold continuously.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/20/2011 6:21:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:44:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I have a question (well, two) to the few Anarchists we have left here on DDO, regardless if you are AnCap or AnCom.

Somalia has been in a state of anarchy for the past 20 years now. Since their government fell in 1991, there has not been a replacement government established (currently, we can ignore the TFG that impotently formed in 2004, but even if we count that, there was 13 years of nothing before that).


The question that I have, is did Somalia form an Anarchist Capitalist (or Communist) society?

If not, why did one not form?

If Anarchy does not naturally rest in equilibrium as AnCap (or AnCom), what safe guards does AnCap (or AnCom) have to prevent it from slipping into a somalia type of anarchy?


Similary, we can ask anti-anarchists (such as myself, I'm not familiar enough with Somalia to give an answer, but I've started researching), if people naturally form governments, why has no government formed? Or at least, why is it taking so long?

Somalia isn't exactly Anarchy, but it is as close to Anarchy as any country is in the world today....

They are much closer to An Cap than An Com.

A true Anarchist society would be nether An cap or An com, everything would be voluntary... so people could make communes if they want, or they can stay in capitalist society

Somalia has actually done quite well in comparison to other poor African countries under Anarchy...
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/20/2011 7:09:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When I was an Ancap, when I was an Ancom and still now, I have always held Somalia to be an Ancap society.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/20/2011 7:16:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I didn't realize that The Childrens Health Insurance Reauthorization Act was a stupid thing to do. I didn't realize that stopping insurance companies from dropping the elderly and those prone to illness was a stupid thing to do. Shame on the man! I also didn't realize, though cliche, still quite a point, that the assassination of Bin Laden was a act of idiocy. Oh darn him, he's killing our blessed country.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/20/2011 7:17:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 7:16:51 PM, 000ike wrote:
I didn't realize that The Childrens Health Insurance Reauthorization Act was a stupid thing to do. I didn't realize that stopping insurance companies from dropping the elderly and those prone to illness was a stupid thing to do. Shame on the man! I also didn't realize, though cliche, still quite a point, that the assassination of Bin Laden was a act of idiocy. Oh darn him, he's killing our blessed country.

sorry wrong thread x)
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/21/2011 12:10:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Somalia had outside help before it formed the government. An question to think about is whether it would have formed the government if there was no outside help. Should outside help be given at all?

Regardless, I am not an Anarchist and I don't believe Somalia's state of Anarchy was good for it.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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9/21/2011 6:17:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I find it amusing when listening to different people's semantics on what can be considered a "state" or "government". Any authority over people can be considered as such. The scale on which this is done and the official recognition of this by other entities of authority... This seems to be the difference in perspective on defining such concepts.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/21/2011 7:47:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
An argument can be made that Somalia has fared better under anarchy than it did when it had a central government. I'd say that Somalia currently operates more on the basis of an-cap than an-com. This is because profit-driven business models still exist.

The CIA factbook states, "Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has managed to survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless services in most major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on the continent. In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange services have sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500 million and $1 billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market offers a variety of goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels continue to operate, and militias provide security."

However what it really comes down to is this: Just because a country might be "better" under completely subjective standards, doesn't mean that you can provide a philosophical justification for a government monopoly. You can submit an example like Somalia as evidence for anarchy gone wrong, but an anarchist could cite examples of "successful" (by whatever standards) anarchist societies of both the an-cap and an-com variety.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/21/2011 7:57:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 7:47:39 PM, Danielle wrote:
An argument can be made that Somalia has fared better under anarchy than it did when it had a central government. I'd say that Somalia currently operates more on the basis of an-cap than an-com. This is because profit-driven business models still exist.

The CIA factbook states, "Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has managed to survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless services in most major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on the continent. In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange services have sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500 million and $1 billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market offers a variety of goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels continue to operate, and militias provide security."

However what it really comes down to is this: Just because a country might be "better" under completely subjective standards, doesn't mean that you can provide a philosophical justification for a government monopoly. You can submit an example like Somalia as evidence for anarchy gone wrong, but an anarchist could cite examples of "successful" (by whatever standards) anarchist societies of both the an-cap and an-com variety.

Comically, while their telecommunications is great, they only have clean water for 25% of the population and a 7% literacy rate. What it seems like is that a few are doing very well (they can make a cheap phone call anywhere in the nation), but the majority is dying away (or would be if we didn't have such a large humanitarian effort).

I personally maintain that most societies can work if and only if the vast majority of the people living in those societies willingly support that style. AnCap would work if you had a society of people that all supported AnCap. Communism would work if you had a society of people that all supported Communism. Socialism, Conservatism, Liberalism, etc. They would all work if the people living in them got behind them and supported them [near blindly].
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/21/2011 8:22:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 7:57:43 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Comically, while their telecommunications is great, they only have clean water for 25% of the population and a 7% literacy rate. What it seems like is that a few are doing very well (they can make a cheap phone call anywhere in the nation), but the majority is dying away (or would be if we didn't have such a large humanitarian effort).

I love that people create threads under the guise of asking legitimate questions when really their mind is already made up and they just want to argue lol.

That said, this is so misleading. According to the World Water Development Report, Belgium, Morocco and India are the countries that provide the worst water quality to their citizens. Notice that all 3 of these countries have a central government. It would be silly to suggest that a government is a prerequisite to decent water. In fact, water security is at extreme risk all over Asia and Africa which has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the environment. Dozens of countries have a water crisis and are not anarchistic.

Also, this plays into exactly what I said about the standards you are using to determine whether or not something is good. You can compare one society to another and prove that one is "better" by particular standards, but that still does not act as a justification for those societies. For one thing people have different standards for what qualifies as better. For another, suppose a society in which rape is legal provides the best quality of health care, education, etc. Does that mean that rape is not bad because those societies are "better off" and allow it?

Until a philosophical justification for the concept of government is established, then this is really a moot conversation.

I personally maintain that most societies can work if and only if the vast majority of the people living in those societies willingly support that style.

AnCap would work if you had a society of people that all supported AnCap. Communism would work if you had a society of people that all supported Communism. Socialism, Conservatism, Liberalism, etc. They would all work if the people living in them got behind them and supported them [near blindly].

Yes, obvious is obvious. Clearly if everyone in society agreed on everything (or at least governance) it would be as close to utopia as possible.
President of DDO