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The Failure of Socialism

jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?
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DetectableNinja
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9/21/2011 4:26:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
inb4 "Oh, it wasn't REAL socialism/communism!"
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/21/2011 4:26:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Bolsheviks are their heros.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
FREEDO
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9/21/2011 4:35:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Socialism is not what failed. Centralization is what failed. In Democratic Socialism, the centralization of power inherent in Capitalism is undone. What Soviet Russia did is take the authority away from the businessmen and give to bureaucrats. Neither are good.

As for Communism, you wouldn't even ask if you knew anything about it.
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fnord
Ore_Ele
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9/21/2011 4:43:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:26:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
inb4 "Oh, it wasn't REAL socialism/communism!"

Do you think putting "inb4" makes the statement any less true?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
DetectableNinja
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9/21/2011 4:46:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:43:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:26:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
inb4 "Oh, it wasn't REAL socialism/communism!"

Do you think putting "inb4" makes the statement any less true?

That may be, but the point is that it's a mega cop-out.

It seems that nothing is real _______ until it actually works.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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9/21/2011 4:48:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:46:03 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:43:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:26:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
inb4 "Oh, it wasn't REAL socialism/communism!"

Do you think putting "inb4" makes the statement any less true?

That may be, but the point is that it's a mega cop-out.

It seems that nothing is real _______ until it actually works.

Well he did say "attempt"
Ore_Ele
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9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 4:49:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:43:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:26:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
inb4 "Oh, it wasn't REAL socialism/communism!"

Do you think putting "inb4" makes the statement any less true?

DetectableNinja pointed out the key problem with this argument...

Socialists basically say that socialism, by definition, works...

Therefore, anything that doesn't work is not socialism...

This may or be not be true about socialism...

But, it is irrelevant. Socialist ideas could never work in the real world, and this HAS been proven...

Past socialist experiments may not have achieved what socialists wanted. This is because of a bad theory, not bad implementation
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Ore_Ele
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9/21/2011 4:50:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:48:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:46:03 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:43:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:26:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
inb4 "Oh, it wasn't REAL socialism/communism!"

Do you think putting "inb4" makes the statement any less true?

That may be, but the point is that it's a mega cop-out.

It seems that nothing is real _______ until it actually works.

Well he did say "attempt"

But what was "attempted" wasn't real socialism. Look at the USSR. When it started, it began "attempting" real socialism and it grew and grew and grew. However, it eventually started to drive away from socialism, so as it began moving away from socialism and just standard totalitarian dicatorship, it could no longer be considered an "attempt" as it was now "attempting" something else.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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9/21/2011 4:51:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.

That is true if you compare Cuba to Haiti.

Then I guess you could talk about the failed attempts of democracy in Haiti.
jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 4:51:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.

So, the Soviet Union and Cuba are examples of Socialism working... Is that what socialists call success?

And, if socialist policies have made the US and EU so much better off, why is it that the more socialist countries are WORSE off than the less socialist countries...?

It seems that countries have reached success DESPITE socialismm...
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/21/2011 4:51:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:46:03 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:43:04 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:26:37 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
inb4 "Oh, it wasn't REAL socialism/communism!"

Do you think putting "inb4" makes the statement any less true?

That may be, but the point is that it's a mega cop-out.

It seems that nothing is real _______ until it actually works.

It's a mega cop-out if that is the entire argument.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.
jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 4:53:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.

So you do enjoy the waiting lines and virtually non existant Med Technology?

Im glad to hear it...
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Ore_Ele
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9/21/2011 4:54:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:51:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.

That is true if you compare Cuba to Haiti.

Then I guess you could talk about the failed attempts of democracy in Haiti.

Well, you could compare Cuba to pretty much all of the islands in the area, not just Haiti. It was a while back, but someone was talking about the emigration rate of Cuba showing that people didn't like it, even though if you look at the emigration rate of all the other island, Cuba was about 1/3 of the others.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
DetectableNinja
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9/21/2011 4:55:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.

1) Have you even tried American healthcare where you have to pay?

2) That's SEMI-socialism, which does work.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 4:56:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:54:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:51:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.

That is true if you compare Cuba to Haiti.

Then I guess you could talk about the failed attempts of democracy in Haiti.

Well, you could compare Cuba to pretty much all of the islands in the area, not just Haiti. It was a while back, but someone was talking about the emigration rate of Cuba showing that people didn't like it, even though if you look at the emigration rate of all the other island, Cuba was about 1/3 of the others.

You do know that even Fidel Castro has admitted that Cuba's socialist model in unsustainable...
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/21/2011 4:57:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:53:56 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.

So you do enjoy the waiting lines and virtually non existant Med Technology?


Im glad to hear it...

Have you ever been to a country with universal health care?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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9/21/2011 4:57:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:57:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:53:56 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.

So you do enjoy the waiting lines and virtually non existant Med Technology?


Im glad to hear it...

Have you ever been to a country with universal health care?

Which reminds me, I was going to debate you on it.

I'll send you challenge when I get back from vacation.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 4:58:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:57:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:53:56 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.

So you do enjoy the waiting lines and virtually non existant Med Technology?


Im glad to hear it...

Have you ever been to a country with universal health care?

I've been to Spain, Ireland, UK, France, Italy, and Germany....
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jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 4:59:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:57:40 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:57:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:53:56 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.

So you do enjoy the waiting lines and virtually non existant Med Technology?


Im glad to hear it...

Have you ever been to a country with universal health care?

Which reminds me, I was going to debate you on it.

I'll send you challenge when I get back from vacation.

Look forward to it
President of DDO
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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9/21/2011 5:00:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, semi-socialism, semi-capitalism or anything else is usually what one refers to, and certainly all that I would advocate. I've not used American healthcare, but you just have to look at the studies done across the board which bears this out. I have to laugh though. According to the O.P, Pinochet was an example of success. Also, since someone mentioned Cuba, the Cuban healthcare system is rated 37th best in the world, the US is at 36th.
jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 5:04:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 5:00:02 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Well, semi-socialism, semi-capitalism or anything else is usually what one refers to, and certainly all that I would advocate. I've not used American healthcare, but you just have to look at the studies done across the board which bears this out. I have to laugh though. According to the O.P, Pinochet was an example of success. Also, since someone mentioned Cuba, the Cuban healthcare system is rated 37th best in the world, the US is at 36th.

The fact that you still worship that one debunked study makes me laugh...

Oh, and nice straw man with Pinochet...

I see you haven't changed much since our debate...
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unitedandy
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9/21/2011 5:05:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:58:23 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:57:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:53:56 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:52:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Yep. Socialised medicine sucks. We hate getting first rate universal healthcare over here. Come and give us the crappy insurance healthcare which costs more and implodes when you try to use it.

So you do enjoy the waiting lines and virtually non existant Med Technology?



Im glad to hear it...

Have you ever been to a country with universal health care?


I've been to Spain, Ireland, UK, France, Italy, and Germany....

If you've been to the UK and used the NHS, you'll know that it is supported across the board politically and throughout the country. This is undeniable. Indeed, there was a study which showed 90% support for the NHS in Britain. As for waiting lines and so forth, I've not really experienced it myself at all, but there is an option for folks to go private. Hardly anyone does though. And the medical technology thing is just BS.
Ore_Ele
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9/21/2011 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:51:50 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.

So, the Soviet Union and Cuba are examples of Socialism working... Is that what socialists call success?

Compare 1910 Russia to 1960 USSR. Yes, it was a success, giving that they bore the brunt of two World Wars (while the US got to play from a safe distance), and they still came out as a super power.

Compare Cuba to it's fellow islands and consider all that the US has done to try to make Cuba fail. Yes, that is a success.


And, if socialist policies have made the US and EU so much better off, why is it that the more socialist countries are WORSE off than the less socialist countries...?

They are not. Sweden's unemployment has been dropping (from a peak of 9% last year down to 7.5% this year and still dropping).

http://www.google.com...

Norway saw a massive boom to their unemployment from this global crisis. It shot all the way up to 3.5% but is now back down to about 3.2%.

http://www.google.com...

Denmark, though did see a massive hit of unemployment, going from 3% up to almost 8%, but it too is going back down, now at 7%.

http://www.google.com...

It seems the country that can't get its people back to work is the country that has a government that is all tied up and not able to do anything. Funny thing is, when the government does nothing (either by choice or by conflicting parties), free marketists say the economy should start soaring.


It seems that countries have reached success DESPITE socialismm...

Yep, that must be it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
unitedandy
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9/21/2011 5:10:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 5:04:44 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 5:00:02 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Well, semi-socialism, semi-capitalism or anything else is usually what one refers to, and certainly all that I would advocate. I've not used American healthcare, but you just have to look at the studies done across the board which bears this out. I have to laugh though. According to the O.P, Pinochet was an example of success. Also, since someone mentioned Cuba, the Cuban healthcare system is rated 37th best in the world, the US is at 36th.

The fact that you still worship that one debunked study makes me laugh...

Oh, and nice straw man with Pinochet...

I see you haven't changed much since our debate...

That one debunked study, one after it by the oecd in 2007, another one after this in 2008, and even the source you used in the debate supporting what I said (and I'm saying) about UHC. But you're right. The CATO institute and Lasik eye surgery (a study I'm still waiting to see) is much more worthwhile than a WHO study in 2000, and similar studies across the board.

The Pinochet comments are there for folks to read.
Ore_Ele
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9/21/2011 5:10:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 4:56:43 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:54:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:51:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.

That is true if you compare Cuba to Haiti.

Then I guess you could talk about the failed attempts of democracy in Haiti.

Well, you could compare Cuba to pretty much all of the islands in the area, not just Haiti. It was a while back, but someone was talking about the emigration rate of Cuba showing that people didn't like it, even though if you look at the emigration rate of all the other island, Cuba was about 1/3 of the others.

You do know that even Fidel Castro has admitted that Cuba's socialist model in unsustainable...

So, it merely needs to be improved upon, that doesn't make it a failure.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/21/2011 5:14:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 5:10:01 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 5:04:44 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 5:00:02 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Well, semi-socialism, semi-capitalism or anything else is usually what one refers to, and certainly all that I would advocate. I've not used American healthcare, but you just have to look at the studies done across the board which bears this out. I have to laugh though. According to the O.P, Pinochet was an example of success. Also, since someone mentioned Cuba, the Cuban healthcare system is rated 37th best in the world, the US is at 36th.

The fact that you still worship that one debunked study makes me laugh...

Oh, and nice straw man with Pinochet...

I see you haven't changed much since our debate...

That one debunked study, one after it by the oecd in 2007, another one after this in 2008, and even the source you used in the debate supporting what I said (and I'm saying) about UHC. But you're right. The CATO institute and Lasik eye surgery (a study I'm still waiting to see) is much more worthwhile than a WHO study in 2000, and similar studies across the board.

The Pinochet comments are there for folks to read.

UN is corrupt. I would not trust a WHO study at face value at all.
Open borders debate:
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jimtimmy
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9/21/2011 5:16:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/21/2011 5:07:11 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:51:50 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:48:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/21/2011 4:25:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I know there are a lot of socialists on here... and a lot more leftists...

How do you guys deal with the complete failure of Socialism and Communism on every attempt?

The fact that it hasn't.

the USSR's model took Russia from a dirt poor country into a global superpower over a single generation.

The very fact that Cuba is doing well for itself, given the isolation that the US has imposed on it, and given it's location for hurricanes.

We can also point to where socialistic ideas (but not pure socialism) has been implimented and they've improved nations, like every European nation and the US.

So, the Soviet Union and Cuba are examples of Socialism working... Is that what socialists call success?

Compare 1910 Russia to 1960 USSR. Yes, it was a success, giving that they bore the brunt of two World Wars (while the US got to play from a safe distance), and they still came out as a super power.

Compare Cuba to it's fellow islands and consider all that the US has done to try to make Cuba fail. Yes, that is a success.


And, if socialist policies have made the US and EU so much better off, why is it that the more socialist countries are WORSE off than the less socialist countries...?

They are not. Sweden's unemployment has been dropping (from a peak of 9% last year down to 7.5% this year and still dropping).

http://www.google.com...

Norway saw a massive boom to their unemployment from this global crisis. It shot all the way up to 3.5% but is now back down to about 3.2%.

http://www.google.com...

Denmark, though did see a massive hit of unemployment, going from 3% up to almost 8%, but it too is going back down, now at 7%.

http://www.google.com...

It seems the country that can't get its people back to work is the country that has a government that is all tied up and not able to do anything. Funny thing is, when the government does nothing (either by choice or by conflicting parties), free marketists say the economy should start soaring.


It seems that countries have reached success DESPITE socialismm...

Yep, that must be it.

Um, why don't you take a country more comparable to the US, like France. How is social democracy doing there?

Plus, the US has a much higher per capita GDP than even the Scandinavian countries... except for Oil rich Norway...

And, Russians were not better off in 1960 than they would have been without socailism, they were much worse off....

Millions died in famines due to low agricultural productivity... and misappropriation of resources (economic calculation is impossible under socialism)...

And, the GDP figures are know known to be fudged... Remember when Samuelson's textbooks kept on saying that Soviet GDP was growing so much faster than US GDP, Yet somehow the Soviet Union GDP remained only half the US, year after year...
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