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Does Congress have the authority to define?

Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/1/2011 9:38:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...

This is a loaded question. The Congress obviously has the authority to define marriage, the way it has the authority to define just about anything. I don't see how this is relevant to the actual debate of what's at hand: ascribing equal rights to homosexual couples as are afforded to heterosexual couples. I don't think gay people really care about the word marriage IF civil unions afforded equal rights and protections as marriage - but they don't. Gays will still call their relationships "marriage" (and their partners "husbands" or "wives") regardless of how the government defines the term.
President of DDO
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/1/2011 12:16:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Congress obviously has the authority to define marriage,
Wat Lwerd?

Con in that debate was a moron, does Chuz want an actual debate?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/1/2011 1:23:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 12:16:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The Congress obviously has the authority to define marriage,
Wat Lwerd?

Authority =/= Rightful Authority

You might not think the government should have the authority to take taxes but they do anyway.
President of DDO
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/1/2011 1:25:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...

No but the 10th Amendments give the States Authority to define it.

Also the 1st amendment gives the churches a right to define it.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/1/2011 1:31:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 1:23:20 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 10/1/2011 12:16:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The Congress obviously has the authority to define marriage,
Wat Lwerd?

Authority =/= Rightful Authority

You might not think the government should have the authority to take taxes but they do anyway.

Power=/= authority. The constitution authorizes nothing of the sort. Naturalization has to do with how to become a citizen not how to be married.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/1/2011 1:49:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 1:25:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...

No but the 10th Amendments give the States Authority to define it.

Also the 1st amendment gives the churches a right to define it.

Also when you , "The last lines of Article 1, Section 8 say:

"Section 8.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

You completely raped the constitution.
1st off, that was at the beginning of Article Section 8, not the end.

Now lets look at it by each statement shall we?

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;"

General Welfare is defined by the center for civics education as, "Good of society as a whole; common or public good."
http://www.civiced.org...

In other words, "Congress has the power to tax, in order to finance legislation that provides for the common good. "

Statement number 2;

"but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

In other words, "All taxes shall be be consistent in every state".

The second clause you misread was;

"To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;"

naturalization is defined by Princeton as "the proceeding whereby a foreigner is granted citizenship"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

So "to establish consistent laws on granting citizenship, and consistent laws regarding bankruptcies, in every state;"

The 3rd clause you misread, which is another common mistake, was;

"To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.""

necessary is defined by Princeton as, "unavoidable"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
Proper is defined by Princeton as, "having all the qualities typical of the thing specified"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

In other words, "To makes laws that are unavoidably needed in order to execute the listed powers of congress, or any other Department of the Federal Government."
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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10/1/2011 10:45:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 1:49:14 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/1/2011 1:25:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...

No but the 10th Amendments give the States Authority to define it.

Also the 1st amendment gives the churches a right to define it.


Also when you , "The last lines of Article 1, Section 8 say:

"Section 8.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

You completely raped the constitution.
1st off, that was at the beginning of Article Section 8, not the end.

Now lets look at it by each statement shall we?

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;"

General Welfare is defined by the center for civics education as, "Good of society as a whole; common or public good."
http://www.civiced.org...

In other words, "Congress has the power to tax, in order to finance legislation that provides for the common good. "


Statement number 2;

"but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

In other words, "All taxes shall be be consistent in every state".

The second clause you misread was;

"To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;"

naturalization is defined by Princeton as "the proceeding whereby a foreigner is granted citizenship"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

So "to establish consistent laws on granting citizenship, and consistent laws regarding bankruptcies, in every state;"


The 3rd clause you misread, which is another common mistake, was;

"To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.""

necessary is defined by Princeton as, "unavoidable"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
Proper is defined by Princeton as, "having all the qualities typical of the thing specified"
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

In other words, "To makes laws that are unavoidably needed in order to execute the listed powers of congress, or any other Department of the Federal Government."

I don't know where you are getting that I had mis-read any of the above.

Your summary is pretty much how I myself read Article 1, Section 8.

However, I disagree with your standard you added at the end by saying that Congress only has the powers and authority to make laws which are "unavoidably needed." And you can add to the fact that many who are defending the more traditional definition of marriage (ie, One man One woman) would see "Doma" for example as being more "necessary" than you may want to believe it to be.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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10/1/2011 11:00:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...

That is simply a matter of Court opinion at the current time. PastorFred's punk-a55 pwned me with that a few years ago in our drug war battles. If I ever see PastorFred around here for a rematch it will be on. He's been avoiding me.
Rob
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/1/2011 11:01:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It doesn't matter whether you think DOMA is necessary and proper, only whether it's necessary and proper in regard to one of the enumerated powers. Which one is that again?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/1/2011 11:18:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is necessary to define what is considered the "right". Congress enacts laws that aren't strictly in the constitution, so congress gets it power from force not the constitution, which is just a piece of paper.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/1/2011 11:21:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 11:18:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
It is necessary to define what is considered the "right". Congress enacts laws that aren't strictly in the constitution, so congress gets it power from force not the constitution, which is just a piece of paper.

Does Congress have the authority to define?|

What's wrong with this picture?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/1/2011 11:25:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 11:21:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:18:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
It is necessary to define what is considered the "right". Congress enacts laws that aren't strictly in the constitution, so congress gets it power from force not the constitution, which is just a piece of paper.

Does Congress have the authority to define?|

What's wrong with this picture?

hehe, I thought the question was:
"Does Congress have the right to define?"

Ah, to think I could've accepted the debate and won on semantics.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/2/2011 12:47:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 11:00:54 PM, Lasagna wrote:
At 10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...

That is simply a matter of Court opinion at the current time. PastorFred's punk-a55 pwned me with that a few years ago in our drug war battles. If I ever see PastorFred around here for a rematch it will be on. He's been avoiding me.

After all we are a Kritarchy >.<
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/2/2011 7:51:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 2:33:58 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
Okay, so...

Does the United States Congress have the authority to "define marriage" under Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution? Or not?

http://www.debate.org...

Not really, that is why people are pushing for an amendment. If the amendment goes through, it does not matter what the rest of the constitution ambiguously says...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/2/2011 11:16:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 11:25:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:21:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:18:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
It is necessary to define what is considered the "right". Congress enacts laws that aren't strictly in the constitution, so congress gets it power from force not the constitution, which is just a piece of paper.

Does Congress have the authority to define?|

What's wrong with this picture?

hehe, I thought the question was:
"Does Congress have the right to define?"
That wouldn't make your response make sense either, as power is also different from rights.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/2/2011 11:21:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 11:16:51 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:25:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:21:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:18:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
It is necessary to define what is considered the "right". Congress enacts laws that aren't strictly in the constitution, so congress gets it power from force not the constitution, which is just a piece of paper.

Does Congress have the authority to define?|

What's wrong with this picture?

hehe, I thought the question was:
"Does Congress have the right to define?"
That wouldn't make your response make sense either, as power is also different from rights.

Well we already know that Congress has the power to do it, it already has, but we don't know if it has the right to, which is different. Most Americans believe that Congress rights to govern are derived from the constitution.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/2/2011 11:57:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 11:21:55 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/2/2011 11:16:51 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:25:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:21:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:18:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
It is necessary to define what is considered the "right". Congress enacts laws that aren't strictly in the constitution, so congress gets it power from force not the constitution, which is just a piece of paper.

Does Congress have the authority to define?|

What's wrong with this picture?

hehe, I thought the question was:
"Does Congress have the right to define?"
That wouldn't make your response make sense either, as power is also different from rights.

Well we already know that Congress has the power to do it, it already has, but we don't know if it has the right to, which is different. Most Americans believe that Congress rights to govern are derived from the constitution.

The ones who don't believe that are either high-school drop outs or Socialist/Communist die hearts
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/2/2011 3:45:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 11:57:06 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/2/2011 11:21:55 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/2/2011 11:16:51 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:25:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:21:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/1/2011 11:18:26 PM, darkkermit wrote:
It is necessary to define what is considered the "right". Congress enacts laws that aren't strictly in the constitution, so congress gets it power from force not the constitution, which is just a piece of paper.

Does Congress have the authority to define?|

What's wrong with this picture?

hehe, I thought the question was:
"Does Congress have the right to define?"
That wouldn't make your response make sense either, as power is also different from rights.

Well we already know that Congress has the power to do it, it already has, but we don't know if it has the right to, which is different. Most Americans believe that Congress rights to govern are derived from the constitution.

The ones who don't believe that are either high-school drop outs or Socialist/Communist die hearts

In the end the constitution is just a piece of paper :p.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...