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Contradiction of the anti DP argument

phantom
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10/1/2011 7:31:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
First, I am con death penalty so this isn't for the purpose of supporting the DP, just to point out a contradiction many anti DP people say.

One argument against the DP is that life in prison punishes the prisoner more than capital punishment.

An even more common argument is that the death penalty is cruel and barbaric.

But these contradict each other. If the DP is cruel and life in prison is not, why is life in prison a worse punishment?

If the DP is barbaric wouldn't that punish murderers more?
If the DP is barbaric and life in prison is a worse punishment, than life in prison must be barbaric as well.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
thett3
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10/1/2011 7:44:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is why I'm Pro DP. Innocence is the only compelling argument I can see
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
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10/1/2011 7:48:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What if I believe the death penalty is not cruel and barbaric, but I do believe it is better than life in prison?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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10/1/2011 7:50:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 7:48:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
What if I believe the death penalty is not cruel and barbaric, but I do believe it is better than life in prison?

better in what respect?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
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10/1/2011 7:52:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 7:50:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:48:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
What if I believe the death penalty is not cruel and barbaric, but I do believe it is better than life in prison?

better in what respect?

Better, as in the death penalty is less suffering and torture. Life in prison is agony of the mind and spirit, an often equal vice to that of physical suffering.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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10/1/2011 7:55:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 7:52:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:50:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:48:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
What if I believe the death penalty is not cruel and barbaric, but I do believe it is better than life in prison?

better in what respect?

Better, as in the death penalty is less suffering and torture. Life in prison is agony of the mind and spirit, an often equal vice to that of physical suffering.

I would tend to disagree. I think most of the people capable of committing capital murder are not capable of feeling guilt. If you read up on how truly cruel and horrifying most capital murders are...I honestly can't imagine anyone with any moral sense whatsoever committing those crimes. Plus 96% of those sentenced to die fight their sentence
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
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10/1/2011 8:02:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 7:55:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:52:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:50:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:48:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
What if I believe the death penalty is not cruel and barbaric, but I do believe it is better than life in prison?

better in what respect?

Better, as in the death penalty is less suffering and torture. Life in prison is agony of the mind and spirit, an often equal vice to that of physical suffering.

I would tend to disagree. I think most of the people capable of committing capital murder are not capable of feeling guilt. If you read up on how truly cruel and horrifying most capital murders are...I honestly can't imagine anyone with any moral sense whatsoever committing those crimes. Plus 96% of those sentenced to die fight their sentence

Heres the thing, and I'm not speaking from some higher knowledge, just practicality. When people don't support a position, they manipulate facts and statistics to help their case. Who is it that told you that most capital murders are inhumane? How did they find that information? You can make statistics say anything you want them to say with just some guidance. Some criminals deserve the utmost punishment without having to suffer mentally. The Davis capital murder for example, was done fairly quickly, and they put him under before doing it. I wouldn't be so quick to believe the people telling you that most capital deaths are immoral. :/
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
phantom
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10/1/2011 8:05:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 7:44:53 PM, thett3 wrote:
This is why I'm Pro DP. Innocence is the only compelling argument I can see

The argument that life in prison is a worse punishment is quite minor. Why do you disagree just because of one argument?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
thett3
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10/1/2011 8:05:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:02:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:55:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:52:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:50:06 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:48:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
What if I believe the death penalty is not cruel and barbaric, but I do believe it is better than life in prison?

better in what respect?

Better, as in the death penalty is less suffering and torture. Life in prison is agony of the mind and spirit, an often equal vice to that of physical suffering.

I would tend to disagree. I think most of the people capable of committing capital murder are not capable of feeling guilt. If you read up on how truly cruel and horrifying most capital murders are...I honestly can't imagine anyone with any moral sense whatsoever committing those crimes. Plus 96% of those sentenced to die fight their sentence

Heres the thing, and I'm not speaking from some higher knowledge, just practicality. When people don't support a position, they manipulate facts and statistics to help their case. Who is it that told you that most capital murders are inhumane? How did they find that information? You can make statistics say anything you want them to say with just some guidance. Some criminals deserve the utmost punishment without having to suffer mentally. The Davis capital murder for example, was done fairly quickly, and they put him under before doing it. I wouldn't be so quick to believe the people telling you that most capital deaths are immoral. :/

Sentencing guidelines require aggravating factors to impose the Death Penalty. It varies from State to State, but other than (I believe) Florida the decision to sentence someone to die must be unanimous
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

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#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
phantom
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10/1/2011 8:06:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 7:48:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
What if I believe the death penalty is not cruel and barbaric, but I do believe it is better than life in prison?

?? Then your pro DP..
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
thett3
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10/1/2011 8:06:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:05:15 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:44:53 PM, thett3 wrote:
This is why I'm Pro DP. Innocence is the only compelling argument I can see

The argument that life in prison is a worse punishment is quite minor. Why do you disagree just because of one argument?

I disagree because I find all anti-DP arguments except innocence to be weak
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
phantom
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10/1/2011 8:18:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:06:55 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:05:15 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:44:53 PM, thett3 wrote:
This is why I'm Pro DP. Innocence is the only compelling argument I can see

The argument that life in prison is a worse punishment is quite minor. Why do you disagree just because of one argument?

I disagree because I find all anti-DP arguments except innocence to be weak

I find allot of pro death penalty arguments are weak.

Deterrence is the best argument but most criminologists don't even believe in it.

"Eighty-eight percent of the country's top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide, according to a new study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology and authored by Professor Michael Radelet, Chair of the Department of Sociology at the University of Colorado-Boulder, and Traci Lacock, also at Boulder."

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
thett3
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10/1/2011 8:27:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:18:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:06:55 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:05:15 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:44:53 PM, thett3 wrote:
This is why I'm Pro DP. Innocence is the only compelling argument I can see

The argument that life in prison is a worse punishment is quite minor. Why do you disagree just because of one argument?

I disagree because I find all anti-DP arguments except innocence to be weak

I find allot of pro death penalty arguments are weak.

Deterrence is the best argument but most criminologists don't even believe in it.

"Eighty-eight percent of the country's top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide, according to a new study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology and authored by Professor Michael Radelet, Chair of the Department of Sociology at the University of Colorado-Boulder, and Traci Lacock, also at Boulder."

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...

I always debate deterrence but I don't personally believe it to be true...not in the United States. We take far too long, and execute far too few. But countries like Saudi Arabia or Singapore with swift and certain Death penalties have practically no crime. I also remember reading (may or may not be true) that a lot of pirates used to be in the South China Sea, but China started executing all pirates immediately and publicly, and now pirates don't go there anymore.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
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10/1/2011 8:32:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why live if you are not exactly living and you KNOW you will not live? Would you be able to live life in a secluded all grey cage until you die, given horrible food, horrible treatment, shackles on your feet etc? Would you not go mad? How is this a weak argument? Death is better than torture. Death is more humane than torture. The death penalty is justified.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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10/1/2011 8:34:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:32:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Why live if you are not exactly living and you KNOW you will not live? Would you be able to live life in a secluded all grey cage until you die, given horrible food, horrible treatment, shackles on your feet etc? Would you not go mad? How is this a weak argument? Death is better than torture. Death is more humane than torture. The death penalty is justified.

Why are you undecided on the Death Penalty then?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
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10/1/2011 8:36:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:34:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:32:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Why live if you are not exactly living and you KNOW you will not live? Would you be able to live life in a secluded all grey cage until you die, given horrible food, horrible treatment, shackles on your feet etc? Would you not go mad? How is this a weak argument? Death is better than torture. Death is more humane than torture. The death penalty is justified.

Why are you undecided on the Death Penalty then?

I'm waiting for someone to convince me from this argument. I want to see if there is a valid refutation of this before entirely adopting it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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10/1/2011 8:36:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:36:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:34:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:32:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Why live if you are not exactly living and you KNOW you will not live? Would you be able to live life in a secluded all grey cage until you die, given horrible food, horrible treatment, shackles on your feet etc? Would you not go mad? How is this a weak argument? Death is better than torture. Death is more humane than torture. The death penalty is justified.

Why are you undecided on the Death Penalty then?

I'm waiting for someone to convince me from this argument. I want to see if there is a valid refutation of this before entirely adopting it.

I was CON death penalty before hearing this argument.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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10/1/2011 8:42:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:36:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:34:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:32:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
Why live if you are not exactly living and you KNOW you will not live? Would you be able to live life in a secluded all grey cage until you die, given horrible food, horrible treatment, shackles on your feet etc? Would you not go mad? How is this a weak argument? Death is better than torture. Death is more humane than torture. The death penalty is justified.

Why are you undecided on the Death Penalty then?

I'm waiting for someone to convince me from this argument. I want to see if there is a valid refutation of this before entirely adopting it.

Well prison is not exactly like that....at all. It's alot more "humane"

Like I said, the vast majority of DR inmate fight tooth and nail to bring it down to LWOP. I believe LWOP is by far the more merciful sentence (which is exactly why I'm opposed to it in many cases)
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
DanT
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10/2/2011 1:48:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 7:31:07 PM, phantom wrote:
First, I am con death penalty so this isn't for the purpose of supporting the DP, just to point out a contradiction many anti DP people say.

One argument against the DP is that life in prison punishes the prisoner more than capital punishment.

An even more common argument is that the death penalty is cruel and barbaric.

But these contradict each other. If the DP is cruel and life in prison is not, why is life in prison a worse punishment?

If the DP is barbaric wouldn't that punish murderers more?
If the DP is barbaric and life in prison is a worse punishment, than life in prison must be barbaric as well.

I'm sorry but isn't the point of Prison rehabilitation?
Somewhere along the line that point has been lost.

If you can't rehabilitate them, than fry them, shoot them, or string them; they are a danger to society, and a burden on the tax payer.

Also American Prisons are not punishment, they are sleep away camps for criminals.

I have a family member was was in Prison (family black sheep), he was released when the charges was dropped, after only a couple months. According to him, "it was just like summer camp", and several times he has said he "liked it better in prison".
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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10/2/2011 1:50:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 1:48:29 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:31:07 PM, phantom wrote:
First, I am con death penalty so this isn't for the purpose of supporting the DP, just to point out a contradiction many anti DP people say.

One argument against the DP is that life in prison punishes the prisoner more than capital punishment.

An even more common argument is that the death penalty is cruel and barbaric.

But these contradict each other. If the DP is cruel and life in prison is not, why is life in prison a worse punishment?

If the DP is barbaric wouldn't that punish murderers more?
If the DP is barbaric and life in prison is a worse punishment, than life in prison must be barbaric as well.


I'm sorry but isn't the point of Prison rehabilitation?
Somewhere along the line that point has been lost.

If you can't rehabilitate them, than fry them, shoot them, or string them; they are a danger to society, and a burden on the tax payer.


Also American Prisons are not punishment, they are sleep away camps for criminals.

I have a family member was was in Prison (family black sheep), he was released when the charges was dropped, after only a couple months. According to him, "it was just like summer camp", and several times he has said he "liked it better in prison".

Also the officer who arrested us said that the Prison cook was a 4 star gourmet chef
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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10/2/2011 1:51:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 1:50:03 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/2/2011 1:48:29 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:31:07 PM, phantom wrote:
First, I am con death penalty so this isn't for the purpose of supporting the DP, just to point out a contradiction many anti DP people say.

One argument against the DP is that life in prison punishes the prisoner more than capital punishment.

An even more common argument is that the death penalty is cruel and barbaric.

But these contradict each other. If the DP is cruel and life in prison is not, why is life in prison a worse punishment?

If the DP is barbaric wouldn't that punish murderers more?
If the DP is barbaric and life in prison is a worse punishment, than life in prison must be barbaric as well.


I'm sorry but isn't the point of Prison rehabilitation?
Somewhere along the line that point has been lost.

If you can't rehabilitate them, than fry them, shoot them, or string them; they are a danger to society, and a burden on the tax payer.


Also American Prisons are not punishment, they are sleep away camps for criminals.

I have a family member was was in Prison (family black sheep), he was released when the charges was dropped, after only a couple months. According to him, "it was just like summer camp", and several times he has said he "liked it better in prison".

Also the officer who arrested us said that the Prison cook was a 4 star gourmet chef

I meant the officer who arrested him said to us (his family) that the prison cook.....

typo my record is spotless
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
JuiceSqueeze
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10/2/2011 2:32:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
death penalty is extremely expensive. DP trials cost millions and drag on for decades. economically-speaking life sentences are cheaper $$$.

US spends more on prisons and the justice system than education. how about that?
DanT
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10/2/2011 3:52:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 2:32:51 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
death penalty is extremely expensive. DP trials cost millions and drag on for decades. economically-speaking life sentences are cheaper $$$.

US spends more on prisons and the justice system than education. how about that?

Well maybe they should speed up the sentencing..... Again not about punishment, it's about rehabilitation; if you can't rehabilitate them than fry their a**!

Also the Justice system needs serious reforms!!!

For example, alcoholism as an excuse to commit a crime....
So the alcoholic is an addict, well so are allot of crack heads.... once you open the door for alcoholism to excuse one of a crime, than you open the door for every other addiction.
Next thing you know we will have sex addicts claiming they only raped a girl because they are addicted to sexual stimulation.

Another example is the number of frivolous law suits, and there are some really dumb ones, that actually win in court.

Like when people sue McDonald's because they are fat or sue a doctor who delivered their baby because the child was born mentally retarded, or when people sue a company for letting them go when they receive a injury that prevents them from doing their job.

Honestly our Justice system has turned into a 3 ring circus.....

But again in regards to the DP; The whole point of prison is rehabilitation; I oppose Life sentencing more than the Death Penalty, because it's a waste of space, and defeats the whole purpose of the correctional facilities.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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10/2/2011 3:54:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 2:32:51 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
death penalty is extremely expensive. DP trials cost millions and drag on for decades. economically-speaking life sentences are cheaper $$$.

US spends more on prisons and the justice system than education. how about that?

By the way; Life sentencing also gets dragged on for decades due to appeals. The only difference is the deadline for the DP is shorter than the LS.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
JuiceSqueeze
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10/2/2011 5:12:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 3:54:54 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/2/2011 2:32:51 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
death penalty is extremely expensive. DP trials cost millions and drag on for decades. economically-speaking life sentences are cheaper $$$.

US spends more on prisons and the justice system than education. how about that?

By the way; Life sentencing also gets dragged on for decades due to appeals. The only difference is the deadline for the DP is shorter than the LS.

false.

*Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.

*The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

the reforms suggested by users here to right the wrongs of DP trials and process will cost at least 200 million

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...

so there is no debate that DP costs many times more than life in prison sentences from every possible angle. but then one can debate if the DP actually deters violence. studies of the last 30 years show there is no correlation between the death penalty and ratio of homicide.

take texas for example:

" Texas has the largest death row and has executed almost twice as many people as the next leading state. Houston alone accounts for 10% of all people executed in the United States since 1976.(49) Yet, the murder rates in three of Texas' major cities rank among the nation's top 25 cities. In all three, Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth, the number of murders increased significantly last year.(50)"

death penalty takes away jobs and starves local government of tax revenue:

"New Jersey, for example, laid off more than 500 police officers in 1991.(8) At the same time, it was implementing a death penalty which would cost an estimated $16 million per year,(9) more than enough to hire the same number of officers at a salary of $30,000 per year.

In Florida, a mid-year budget cut of $45 million for the Department of Corrections forced the early release of 3,000 inmates.(10) Yet, by 1988 Florida had spent $57.2 million to accomplish the execution of 18 people.(11) It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole.(12) In contrast, Professors Richard Moran and Joseph Ellis estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates.(13)

Ten other states also reported early release of prisoners because of overcrowding and underfunding.(14) In Texas, the early release of prisoners has meant that inmates are serving only 20 percent of their sentences and re-arrests are common.(15) On the other hand, Texas spent an estimated $183.2 million in just six years on the death penalty.(16)"

http://www.fnsa.org...

So not only does the DP cost more than life sentencing, it has in fact led to the increase of releasing violent offenders early because the money spent trying death penalty cases is money taken away from managing prisons, paying parole officers, and enforcing laws.

summary:

*DP does not stop crime
*DP is more expensive than life sentence conviction

and all this during a time of recession. i understand the nature of how some people view "justice" but we cannot look at this from an emotional perspective. law-abiding citizens, tax-payers, are being punished because politicians pander to voters who demand blood. even if it bankrupts the state and generates more violence.

now, if the USA were to go the way of China, where people are executed on the spot and don't get constitutional rights, then perhaps a strong argument can be made in favor of the DP. but currently it is fiscally irresponsible.
DanT
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10/2/2011 12:33:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 5:12:43 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
At 10/2/2011 3:54:54 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/2/2011 2:32:51 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
death penalty is extremely expensive. DP trials cost millions and drag on for decades. economically-speaking life sentences are cheaper $$$.

US spends more on prisons and the justice system than education. how about that?

By the way; Life sentencing also gets dragged on for decades due to appeals. The only difference is the deadline for the DP is shorter than the LS.

false.

*Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.

*The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

JFA estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.

The average time on death row, for those executed from 1973-1994, was 8 years
Using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP cases are still $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).
http://deathpenalty.procon.org...

According to Edwin H. Sutherland, PhD, late President of the American Sociological Society, and Donald R. Cressey, PhD, late Professor of Sociology at the University of California, Santa Barbara;
"It is not cheaper to keep a criminal confined, because most of the time he will appeal just as much causing as many costs as a convict under death sentence. Being alive and having nothing better to do, he will spend his time in prison conceiving of ever-new habeas corpus petitions, which being unlimited, in effect cannot be rejected as res judicata. The cost is higher."

Again the purpose is rehabilitation not punishment!

you seem to forget that we can reduce the cost by speeding up the execution.

http://www.heartsandminds.org...

The actual executions don't have to cost anything either, hanging has no cost, and volunteer firing squads have no cost, provided they use their own guns and ammunition.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
phantom
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10/2/2011 2:47:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 1:48:29 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/1/2011 7:31:07 PM, phantom wrote:
First, I am con death penalty so this isn't for the purpose of supporting the DP, just to point out a contradiction many anti DP people say.

One argument against the DP is that life in prison punishes the prisoner more than capital punishment.

An even more common argument is that the death penalty is cruel and barbaric.

But these contradict each other. If the DP is cruel and life in prison is not, why is life in prison a worse punishment?

If the DP is barbaric wouldn't that punish murderers more?
If the DP is barbaric and life in prison is a worse punishment, than life in prison must be barbaric as well.


I'm sorry but isn't the point of Prison rehabilitation?
Somewhere along the line that point has been lost.

I'm not sure what you're saying.

If you can't rehabilitate them, than fry them, shoot them, or string them; they are a danger to society,

A danger to society? The only people they can harm are their fellow inmates but that's part of the punishment of being in jail, other inmates making your life harder.

Except for the rare cases (which are getting rarer) when a prisoner escapes. And the chances that they will kill again are even smaller.

I find the argument that the DP keeps killers from striking again quite week.

and a burden on the tax payer.

False. DP is more expensive.


Also American Prisons are not punishment, they are sleep away camps for criminals.


I have a family member was was in Prison (family black sheep), he was released when the charges was dropped, after only a couple months. According to him, "it was just like summer camp", and several times he has said he "liked it better in prison".

Oh but wait. Your relative wasn't a murderer! You think spending the rest of your life with rapists and murderers or in solitary confinement is like a camp?! Get real.
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thett3
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10/2/2011 3:54:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 5:12:43 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
At 10/2/2011 3:54:54 AM, DanT wrote:
At 10/2/2011 2:32:51 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
death penalty is extremely expensive. DP trials cost millions and drag on for decades. economically-speaking life sentences are cheaper $$$.

US spends more on prisons and the justice system than education. how about that?

By the way; Life sentencing also gets dragged on for decades due to appeals. The only difference is the deadline for the DP is shorter than the LS.

false.

*Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.

*The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

the reforms suggested by users here to right the wrongs of DP trials and process will cost at least 200 million

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...

so there is no debate that DP costs many times more than life in prison sentences from every possible angle. but then one can debate if the DP actually deters violence. studies of the last 30 years show there is no correlation between the death penalty and ratio of homicide.

take texas for example:

" Texas has the largest death row and has executed almost twice as many people as the next leading state. Houston alone accounts for 10% of all people executed in the United States since 1976.(49) Yet, the murder rates in three of Texas' major cities rank among the nation's top 25 cities. In all three, Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth, the number of murders increased significantly last year.(50)"

death penalty takes away jobs and starves local government of tax revenue:

"New Jersey, for example, laid off more than 500 police officers in 1991.(8) At the same time, it was implementing a death penalty which would cost an estimated $16 million per year,(9) more than enough to hire the same number of officers at a salary of $30,000 per year.

In Florida, a mid-year budget cut of $45 million for the Department of Corrections forced the early release of 3,000 inmates.(10) Yet, by 1988 Florida had spent $57.2 million to accomplish the execution of 18 people.(11) It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole.(12) In contrast, Professors Richard Moran and Joseph Ellis estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates.(13)

Ten other states also reported early release of prisoners because of overcrowding and underfunding.(14) In Texas, the early release of prisoners has meant that inmates are serving only 20 percent of their sentences and re-arrests are common.(15) On the other hand, Texas spent an estimated $183.2 million in just six years on the death penalty.(16)"

http://www.fnsa.org...

So not only does the DP cost more than life sentencing, it has in fact led to the increase of releasing violent offenders early because the money spent trying death penalty cases is money taken away from managing prisons, paying parole officers, and enforcing laws.

summary:

*DP does not stop crime
*DP is more expensive than life sentence conviction

and all this during a time of recession. i understand the nature of how some people view "justice" but we cannot look at this from an emotional perspective. law-abiding citizens, tax-payers, are being punished because politicians pander to voters who demand blood. even if it bankrupts the state and generates more violence.

now, if the USA were to go the way of China, where people are executed on the spot and don't get constitutional rights, then perhaps a strong argument can be made in favor of the DP. but currently it is fiscally irresponsible.

A. Criminal justice is always expensive.
B. If it's only about the money, why bother to prosecute criminals at all?
C. If you do more research into those cost analysis's, you'll find that the benefits are procured by mixing the death row population with normal prisoners. Which simply will not happen.
D. Abolishing the death penalty carries no solvency, because if LWOP was the harshest penalty than the extra trial/appeals money would be spent in LWOP cases.
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unitedandy
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10/2/2011 7:38:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In most contentious political issues, reasonable folks on either side can see the merits of the opposing case. The DP is perhaps only second to SSM where I admit to be totally unable to feel the force of affirming the DP. Of the top of my head, I can think of lots of reasons why one would oppose it:

1. Barbaic and inhumane
2. Unreasonable BoP
3. Innocence
4. Cost and time
5. Repentence

I honestly don't see even a mildly good argument in favour of it. Perhaps, one of you Pro DPers could enlighten me.
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/2/2011 8:08:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 7:38:03 PM, unitedandy wrote:
In most contentious political issues, reasonable folks on either side can see the merits of the opposing case. The DP is perhaps only second to SSM where I admit to be totally unable to feel the force of affirming the DP. Of the top of my head, I can think of lots of reasons why one would oppose it:

1. Barbaic and inhumane
Meaningless.

2. Unreasonable BoP
Huh?

3. Innocence
If someone innocent is sentenced to life in prison, they no more get to keep their life than someone who is executed, unless they escape. Since the death penalty puts the emotional weight of this on the court, the courts are more likely to take measures to prevent conviction of the innocent. The Death Penalty, saving innocents from a lifetime of rape and captivity.

4. Cost and time
More than 100% of the difference in cost is spent protecting the innocent in courts. I say more than 100% because the penalty itself is absurdly cheaper than prison.

Since protecting the innocent is something that should be done anyway, then unless the costs are useless for protecting the innocent, we have evidence that life imprisonment is causing courts to become negligient.

If the costs are useless, then they can be done away with for the death penalty and the death penalty will be cheaper.

I'm not sure which of those is the case, but one of them has to be, and either one speaks in favor of the death penalty.

5. Repentence
That's a religious consideration, not a legal one, courts cannot read minds.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.