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9-9-9 Cain

Lordknukle
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10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.
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Joseph_Mengele
Posts: 388
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10/1/2011 9:24:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Haha! That was good.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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10/2/2011 12:18:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 9:24:14 PM, Joseph_Mengele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Haha! That was good.

I'm supportive of flat tax's and even I thought this was funny
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
DanT
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10/2/2011 1:40:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

It would be great.

The flat tax generates more revenue than the progressive tax. I did a report on the benifits of the Flat tax in a College Math course last spring and I passed the class with a 4.0 (A), and the paper got full credit.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/2/2011 7:44:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 12:18:13 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:24:14 PM, Joseph_Mengele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Haha! That was good.

I'm supportive of flat tax's and even I thought this was funny

Isn't a flat tax a regressive tax?
I guess it depends on how you do it...
DanT
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10/2/2011 1:51:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 7:44:48 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/2/2011 12:18:13 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:24:14 PM, Joseph_Mengele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Haha! That was good.

I'm supportive of flat tax's and even I thought this was funny

Isn't a flat tax a regressive tax?
I guess it depends on how you do it...

No a regressive tax is one that takes a greater portion of income from those in lower levels than from those in upper income levels.

A progressive tax is one that takes a greater portion of income from those in upper levels than from those in lower income levels.

A Flat tax is one that takes the same portion of income from those in lower levels as from those in upper income levels.

For example

Say 5 people make $100,000, while 10 people make $50,000

Regressive

$100,000 is at a 10% bracket
$50,000 is at a 20% bracket

Both Brackets pay $10k in taxes

Revenue = $150,000.00

Progressive

$100,000 is at a 20% bracket
$50,000 is at a 10% bracket

The Upper Bracket pays $20k
The Lower Bracket pays $5k

Revenue = $150,000.00

Flat

Both incomes is at a 15% bracket

The Upper Bracket pays $15k
The Lower Bracket pays $7.5k

Revenue = $150,000.00
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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10/2/2011 3:28:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Cain also wants to decrease federal spending which might make this tax plan effective
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/2/2011 3:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 3:28:45 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Cain also wants to decrease federal spending which might make this tax plan effective

Yes, but one can't just cut all the departments with a snap of the finger. Also, he doesn't give too much specifics of what departments he wants to get rid of, or what programs he wants to remove. I'm very warily of a candidate that makes promises to cut taxes but does not explain the equivalent spending he or she will cut. Cutting taxes would be great, but only if it doesn't increase the deficit. Otherwise it's just a future tax and/or a future cut.
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/3/2011 3:22:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 3:32:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/2/2011 3:28:45 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Cain also wants to decrease federal spending which might make this tax plan effective

Yes, but one can't just cut all the departments with a snap of the finger. Also, he doesn't give too much specifics of what departments he wants to get rid of, or what programs he wants to remove. I'm very warily of a candidate that makes promises to cut taxes but does not explain the equivalent spending he or she will cut. Cutting taxes would be great, but only if it doesn't increase the deficit. Otherwise it's just a future tax and/or a future cut.

He was explicitly asked what department he'd cut first. He said he'd start with the EPA.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ore_Ele
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10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/3/2011 12:32:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

The middle class pays 25 - 28% income tax. Cain will lower that to 9%.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/3/2011 12:39:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 12:32:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

The middle class pays 25 - 28% income tax. Cain will lower that to 9%.

That doesn't refute anything I said. What is the average tax rate of the bottom 50%? After deductions and all?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/3/2011 12:45:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 12:39:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:32:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

The middle class pays 25 - 28% income tax. Cain will lower that to 9%.

That doesn't refute anything I said. What is the average tax rate of the bottom 50%? After deductions and all?

Even the bottom class ($0 - $15,000) pay 10% income tax. Thats straight from the IRS website. Cain will lower that to 9%.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

the Gross National Income of the US is $14.011 Trillion as of 2009 according to the World Bank.
http://www.google.com...

That is $1,260,990,000,000.00 from both the Individual tax, and the Corporate Income tax.

In 2009 income taxes brought in $1,053.5 billion of revenue
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com...

$1,261.0 Billion - $1,053.5 billion = $207.5 billion more in revenue.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/3/2011 1:07:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 12:45:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:39:12 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:32:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

The middle class pays 25 - 28% income tax. Cain will lower that to 9%.

That doesn't refute anything I said. What is the average tax rate of the bottom 50%? After deductions and all?

Even the bottom class ($0 - $15,000) pay 10% income tax. Thats straight from the IRS website. Cain will lower that to 9%.

lol, no they don't. They have the standard deduction which reduces their income tax owed to 0 or near 0 (the average for the bottom 50% is about 2.7% taxes). If you go to Cain's website, you'll see no plans on keeping the standard deduction, only charitible deductions. Of course, you're also adding a 9% sales tax.

http://www.hermancain.com...
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.


the Gross National Income of the US is $14.011 Trillion as of 2009 according to the World Bank.
http://www.google.com...

That is $1,260,990,000,000.00 from both the Individual tax, and the Corporate Income tax.

In 2009 income taxes brought in $1,053.5 billion of revenue
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com...

$1,261.0 Billion - $1,053.5 billion = $207.5 billion more in revenue.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,325
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10/3/2011 1:12:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I seriously doubt any form of consumption tax will ever come to pass as long as there are rich people who have so much heavy investment in political warchests to pay for the loopholes they enjoy.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/3/2011 2:12:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.

Actually the bolded it fact.

The tax rate is the income tax
The the amount owed is what you pay in taxes

everyone who earns a income is taxed, but not everyone who earns a income owes taxes.

In fact around half of American households, pay no income tax at all.

Some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those who pay, without first raising it on those who don't.


the Gross National Income of the US is $14.011 Trillion as of 2009 according to the World Bank.
http://www.google.com...

That is $1,260,990,000,000.00 from both the Individual tax, and the Corporate Income tax.

In 2009 income taxes brought in $1,053.5 billion of revenue
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com...

$1,261.0 Billion - $1,053.5 billion = $207.5 billion more in revenue.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/3/2011 2:14:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 2:12:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.

Actually the bolded it fact.

The tax rate is the income tax
The the amount owed is what you pay in taxes

everyone who earns a income is taxed, but not everyone who earns a income owes taxes.

In fact around half of American households, pay no income tax at all.

Some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those who pay, without first raising it on those who don't.


the Gross National Income of the US is $14.011 Trillion as of 2009 according to the World Bank.
http://www.google.com...

That is $1,260,990,000,000.00 from both the Individual tax, and the Corporate Income tax.

In 2009 income taxes brought in $1,053.5 billion of revenue
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com...

$1,261.0 Billion - $1,053.5 billion = $207.5 billion more in revenue.


If your smart when filing your taxes you can end up being owed money while making $60k a year.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/3/2011 2:54:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 2:14:09 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 2:12:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.

Actually the bolded it fact.

The tax rate is the income tax
The the amount owed is what you pay in taxes

everyone who earns a income is taxed, but not everyone who earns a income owes taxes.

In fact around half of American households, pay no income tax at all.

Some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those who pay, without first raising it on those who don't.


the Gross National Income of the US is $14.011 Trillion as of 2009 according to the World Bank.
http://www.google.com...

That is $1,260,990,000,000.00 from both the Individual tax, and the Corporate Income tax.

In 2009 income taxes brought in $1,053.5 billion of revenue
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com...

$1,261.0 Billion - $1,053.5 billion = $207.5 billion more in revenue.


If your smart when filing your taxes you can end up being owed money while making $60k a year.

There's a lot you have to do during the year to be able to achieve that. You can't wait until 4/15 and assume that you can get it all back.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/3/2011 3:01:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 2:12:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.

Actually the bolded it fact.

The tax rate is the income tax
The the amount owed is what you pay in taxes

So the tax rate goes down, but the amount owed goes up. That just means that the rate is nothing but political garbage. That's like a CEO saying "I only have an income of $200,000 a year," when they get $3.8 million in stock option benefits. It's deceptive, dishonest, and some other negative d-word that I can't think of right now.


everyone who earns a income is taxed, but not everyone who earns a income owes taxes.

Not true. You can claim "exempt" so that you are not taxed, then when how much you owe swings around, you still don't owe any money. Also, when you are taxed from your paycheck, it attempts to factor in the standard deductions, and not just taxes at your tax rate.


In fact around half of American households, pay no income tax at all.

Some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those who pay, without first raising it on those who don't.

And some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those making $20,000 a year while cutting taxes on those making $20,000,000 a year.

My point, however, is that the typical republican battle cry has been "no new taxes" and "no raising taxes" and now they are advocating something that will raise taxes on most americans.

If we still want to make the argument that there is a difference between tax rate and real taxes owed, then I can point out that when Obama tried only to close tax loopholes (not raising any tax rates), those were called tax increases by republicans.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/3/2011 3:20:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 3:22:14 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/2/2011 3:32:27 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/2/2011 3:28:45 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/1/2011 9:00:17 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I don't think the federal government can generate enough revenue with current expenditures with the 9-9-9 plan. It just sounds like one of those stupid pizza advertisements that big CEOs come up with.

Cain also wants to decrease federal spending which might make this tax plan effective

Yes, but one can't just cut all the departments with a snap of the finger. Also, he doesn't give too much specifics of what departments he wants to get rid of, or what programs he wants to remove. I'm very warily of a candidate that makes promises to cut taxes but does not explain the equivalent spending he or she will cut. Cutting taxes would be great, but only if it doesn't increase the deficit. Otherwise it's just a future tax and/or a future cut.

He was explicitly asked what department he'd cut first. He said he'd start with the EPA.

EPA only cuts 10 billion from the budget, approximately 3%. Plus, he'd start from scratch, so its not like he'd completely get rid of environmental protection. Such a proposition would be insane.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/3/2011 5:07:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 3:01:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 2:12:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.

Actually the bolded it fact.

The tax rate is the income tax
The the amount owed is what you pay in taxes

So the tax rate goes down, but the amount owed goes up. That just means that the rate is nothing but political garbage.

No the rate is the tax, but it is up to the person being taxed to claim the deductions, and exemptions offered, some people don't claim any deductions or exemptions because they don't want to be bothered.

a 9% tax is not much, it' only 1 month's salary.

That's like a CEO saying "I only have an income of $200,000 a year," when they get $3.8 million in stock option benefits. It's deceptive, dishonest, and some other negative d-word that I can't think of right now.

Or when someone who files their taxes but pays nothing at all, claims they paid into the welfare state, as a justification to milking it dry.



everyone who earns a income is taxed, but not everyone who earns a income owes taxes.

Not true. You can claim "exempt" so that you are not taxed,

When you file.... thus you the earner is taxed, even when you don't owe taxes.

then when how much you owe swings around, you still don't owe any money. Also, when you are taxed from your paycheck, it attempts to factor in the standard deductions, and not just taxes at your tax rate.

I know how the tax system works.

Gross Income - Adjustments = adjustable gross income
Adjustable gross income - deductions and exemptions = taxable income.
Taxable income * your tax bracket's tax rate = tax
Tax - tax credits = total tax
Total tax - payments or withholding = amount owed (or refunded)

So let's say you have an Adjustable gross income of $5,000, and deductions of $5,000

Your taxable income is now $0 at a tax rate of 10%

0 * 10% = $0 tax

Now let's say you have $50 tax credit

$0 - $50 = ($50) Total tax

Let's say you have $100 withholding

You are now owed $150, you made $5,000 and had a income tax of 10%


In fact around half of American households, pay no income tax at all.

Some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those who pay, without first raising it on those who don't.

And some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those making $20,000 a year while cutting taxes on those making $20,000,000 a year.

How many people make $20million a year?
To qualify for the top 1% you need a income of $380,354 a year.

$20,000 a year has to pay $1,800 in taxes. Big deal, that is not much money. That is about the cost of a single college course, along with material fees.

My point, however, is that the typical republican battle cry has been "no new taxes" and "no raising taxes" and now they are advocating something that will raise taxes on most americans.

There is no new taxes, they just revised a old tax.
Taxes was lowered but the deductions eliminated.

There is a difference between raising taxes, and eliminating deductions, and exemptions.


If we still want to make the argument that there is a difference between tax rate and real taxes owed, then I can point out that when Obama tried only to close tax loopholes (not raising any tax rates), those were called tax increases by republicans.

What tax loopholes? Be specific, provide a source, or don't bother.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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10/3/2011 5:11:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 5:07:00 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 3:01:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 2:12:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.

Actually the bolded it fact.

The tax rate is the income tax
The the amount owed is what you pay in taxes

So the tax rate goes down, but the amount owed goes up. That just means that the rate is nothing but political garbage.

No the rate is the tax, but it is up to the person being taxed to claim the deductions, and exemptions offered, some people don't claim any deductions or exemptions because they don't want to be bothered.

a 9% tax is not much, it' only 1 month's salary.

That's like a CEO saying "I only have an income of $200,000 a year," when they get $3.8 million in stock option benefits. It's deceptive, dishonest, and some other negative d-word that I can't think of right now.

Or when someone who files their taxes but pays nothing at all, claims they paid into the welfare state, as a justification to milking it dry.



everyone who earns a income is taxed, but not everyone who earns a income owes taxes.

Not true. You can claim "exempt" so that you are not taxed,

When you file.... thus you the earner is taxed, even when you don't owe taxes.

then when how much you owe swings around, you still don't owe any money. Also, when you are taxed from your paycheck, it attempts to factor in the standard deductions, and not just taxes at your tax rate.

I know how the tax system works.

Gross Income - Adjustments = adjustable gross income
Adjustable gross income - deductions and exemptions = taxable income.
Taxable income * your tax bracket's tax rate = tax
Tax - tax credits = total tax
Total tax - payments or withholding = amount owed (or refunded)

So let's say you have an Adjustable gross income of $5,000, and deductions of $5,000

Your taxable income is now $0 at a tax rate of 10%

0 * 10% = $0 tax

Now let's say you have $50 tax credit

$0 - $50 = ($50) Total tax

Let's say you have $100 withholding

You are now owed $150, you made $5,000 and had a income tax of 10%


In fact around half of American households, pay no income tax at all.

Some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those who pay, without first raising it on those who don't.

And some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those making $20,000 a year while cutting taxes on those making $20,000,000 a year.

How many people make $20million a year?
To qualify for the top 1% you need a income of $380,354 a year.

$20,000 a year has to pay $1,800 in taxes. Big deal, that is not much money. That is about the cost of a single college course, along with material fees.

My point, however, is that the typical republican battle cry has been "no new taxes" and "no raising taxes" and now they are advocating something that will raise taxes on most americans.

There is no new taxes, they just revised a old tax.
Taxes was lowered but the deductions eliminated.

There is a difference between raising taxes, and eliminating deductions, and exemptions.


If we still want to make the argument that there is a difference between tax rate and real taxes owed, then I can point out that when Obama tried only to close tax loopholes (not raising any tax rates), those were called tax increases by republicans.

What tax loopholes? Be specific, provide a source, or don't bother.

Also isn't it funny how it's raising taxes for the individual but when it comes to corporate income taxes Democrats group it together with outlays.

Like who ever made this chart;
http://www.americaforpurchase.com...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/3/2011 5:47:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 5:07:00 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 3:01:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 2:12:26 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 1:11:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.

however Unlike with the Progressive and Regressive tax system, the Flat tax eliminates deductions, and exemption; So your taxable income is your adjusted Gross income.

You just pointed out why the bolded is not factually correct. Thank you for pointing out that for most americans, you real tax rate (how much you owe when all is said and done) is going to go up.

Actually the bolded it fact.

The tax rate is the income tax
The the amount owed is what you pay in taxes

So the tax rate goes down, but the amount owed goes up. That just means that the rate is nothing but political garbage.

No the rate is the tax, but it is up to the person being taxed to claim the deductions, and exemptions offered, some people don't claim any deductions or exemptions because they don't want to be bothered.

Right, that makes up what portion of america? They'll bother to file taxes but not claim any deductions? Please, while the standard deduction may not get you the most deductions, it only adds 0 seconds to filing your taxes.


a 9% tax is not much, it' only 1 month's salary.

It's still far more than the effective rate of most americans.


That's like a CEO saying "I only have an income of $200,000 a year," when they get $3.8 million in stock option benefits. It's deceptive, dishonest, and some other negative d-word that I can't think of right now.

Or when someone who files their taxes but pays nothing at all, claims they paid into the welfare state, as a justification to milking it dry.

Sure, I was comparing it to being simply dishonest, but if you want to compare it to fraud, go ahead. Claiming that the 9-9-9 plan will lower everyone's taxes is not just dishonest (as I implied), it is fraud (as you implied).




everyone who earns a income is taxed, but not everyone who earns a income owes taxes.

Not true. You can claim "exempt" so that you are not taxed,

When you file.... thus you the earner is taxed, even when you don't owe taxes.

When you start working at a company, you can file as "exempt" so that they don't take out any taxes over the year and you are responsible for it all yourself come tax day.


then when how much you owe swings around, you still don't owe any money. Also, when you are taxed from your paycheck, it attempts to factor in the standard deductions, and not just taxes at your tax rate.

I know how the tax system works.

Gross Income - Adjustments = adjustable gross income
Adjustable gross income - deductions and exemptions = taxable income.
Taxable income * your tax bracket's tax rate = tax
Tax - tax credits = total tax
Total tax - payments or withholding = amount owed (or refunded)

So let's say you have an Adjustable gross income of $5,000, and deductions of $5,000

Your taxable income is now $0 at a tax rate of 10%

0 * 10% = $0 tax

Now let's say you have $50 tax credit

$0 - $50 = ($50) Total tax

You should also know that most tax credits do will not take you below $0 owed.


Let's say you have $100 withholding

You are now owed $150, you made $5,000 and had a income tax of 10%

So your effective tax rate is -1%. While under the 9-9-9 plan, it stays at 9% and you would owe $350



In fact around half of American households, pay no income tax at all.

Some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those who pay, without first raising it on those who don't.

And some may say it's immoral to raise taxes on those making $20,000 a year while cutting taxes on those making $20,000,000 a year.

How many people make $20million a year?
To qualify for the top 1% you need a income of $380,354 a year.

The top 400 are all worth over $1 billion.


$20,000 a year has to pay $1,800 in taxes. Big deal, that is not much money. That is about the cost of a single college course, along with material fees.

When your annual bills are $19,700 it is a sh!t load of money. How many people do you think that make $20,000 (about $9.75 an hour FT) have an extra $1,800?


My point, however, is that the typical republican battle cry has been "no new taxes" and "no raising taxes" and now they are advocating something that will raise taxes on most americans.

There is no new taxes, they just revised a old tax.
Taxes was lowered but the deductions eliminated.

So the effective taxes are raised.


There is a difference between raising taxes, and eliminating deductions, and exemptions.


If we still want to make the argument that there is a difference between tax rate and real taxes owed, then I can point out that when Obama tried only to close tax loopholes (not raising any tax rates), those were called tax increases by republicans.

What tax loopholes? Be specific, provide a source, or don't bother.

someone is getting defensive.

"Any Republican who voted to remove such an unfair provision of the tax code would be accused of "raising taxes" - and incur the wrath of Grover Norquist."

http://www.azcentral.com...

http://www.npr.org...

There's plenty more. Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, has publically stated that closing loopholes is raising taxes and has gotten many congressmen to sign contracts saying they would oppose any such attempts.

This really isn't news.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/3/2011 7:11:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/3/2011 12:50:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 10/3/2011 12:17:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/1/2011 8:55:51 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
What do you guys think of the 9-9-9 tax plan that Herman Cain is advocating?

Personally, I am for it.

I think it is somewhat comical. I hear republicans shouting from the hill tops not to raise taxes. Yet this would raise taxes for most americans. I mean, sure, it is fine to support it, but you can't really say "I want the 9-9-9 deal" from one side of your mouth and then "don't raise taxes" from the other side.

9% Flat tax would actually lower income taxes on everyone in the US.


It is still regressive...

If I pay 9% on products, over all more percentage of my income will be paying taxes while a rich person pays very little compared to his income... It is regressive.
comoncents
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10/3/2011 7:16:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/2/2011 1:51:02 PM, DanT wrote:

A fair tax is regressive.

For example we have a 5% sales tax in Virginia.

Compare incomes of 90,000 and 45,000.

5% is a "fair tax" but we both pay $240 dollars a year

240/90,000= .25%
240/45,000= .53%

The less you make the larger the percent of income must be paid by poorer people. Fair Tax is regressive.