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Egalitarianism is Stupid

jimtimmy
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10/16/2011 10:23:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
People are naturally different and unequal in most every way. Some people are smarter, taller, and more social than others. People are simply not the same.

The same goes for cultures and groups. Egalitarians also happen to thinkthat all ideaologies and religions are "Equal" in some sense. Islam is no worse than Christianity, according to these people.

Egalitarians also have a tendency to ignore reality to pursue their egalitarian ideas. They ignore economic laws and the genetic influences on Human Behavior in order to achieve their ends...
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/16/2011 10:27:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Doesn't it all depend on what you are using as a measuring stick?

Of course we aren't equal, but isn't prejudice counterproductive towards the growth of those who might be superior?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
jimtimmy
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10/16/2011 11:58:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/16/2011 10:27:45 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Doesn't it all depend on what you are using as a measuring stick?

Of course we aren't equal, but isn't prejudice counterproductive towards the growth of those who might be superior?

Isn't about prejudice.... Its about a false sense of equality...
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CosmicAlfonzo
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10/17/2011 1:04:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I just said that we aren't equal. You'd have to be brain dead to think we were all equal.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/17/2011 1:08:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Egalitarianism, Alfonzo, is the prejudice that we are all equal.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/17/2011 3:16:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Egalitarianism is meant to be equality under the law, equal opportunity, to all get a chance to roll the die, to all get a fair deal.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
socialpinko
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10/17/2011 3:26:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Been reading Rothbard have ya?
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Ragnar_Rahl
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10/17/2011 3:29:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 3:16:11 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Egalitarianism is meant to be equality under the law, equal opportunity, to all get a chance to roll the die, to all get a fair deal.

Those are four different conceptions-- or pseudoconceptions perhaps.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
innomen
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10/17/2011 3:36:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 3:16:11 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Egalitarianism is meant to be equality under the law, equal opportunity, to all get a chance to roll the die, to all get a fair deal.

-Jefferson, essentially.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/17/2011 3:45:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 3:29:34 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/17/2011 3:16:11 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Egalitarianism is meant to be equality under the law, equal opportunity, to all get a chance to roll the die, to all get a fair deal.

Those are four different conceptions-- or pseudoconceptions perhaps.

Contained under the same term.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Kinesis
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10/17/2011 4:10:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
People are naturally different and unequal in most every way. Some people are smarter, taller, and more social than others. People are simply not the same.

No-one denies this. It's a complete strawman. The point is, from a moral viewpoint these things are arbitrary. People don't choose their genetic dispositions, and nor do they choose the society or place in society that they are born into. Factors outside the control of the individual account for the majority of their success in life. In what sense, then, does anyone 'deserve' to be rich at the expense of other people? Egalitarianism is founded on the claim that rich people to a large extent do not deserve to be rich, nor poor people to be poor. There is therefore no objection in that regard (though there are practical concerns) to levelling the playing field between the rich and poor, in terms of career opportunities and wealth reallocation.
Kinesis
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10/17/2011 4:15:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The same goes for cultures and groups. Egalitarians also happen to thinkthat all ideologies and religions are "Equal" in some sense. Islam is no worse than Christianity, according to these people.

This is false. Rather, an egalitarian would hold that we should allow religious freedom to the extent that that freedom does not infringe on the freedoms of others and that people of different religions should be accorded the same basic rights. There are obviously many egalitarians who are Christians, or hold other religious beliefs, and believe that competing religions are false. It isn't true that egalitarians hold that all ideologies are equal - obviously, they regard egalitarianism as superior to other ideologies.
jimtimmy
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10/17/2011 9:23:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 4:10:27 AM, Kinesis wrote:
People are naturally different and unequal in most every way. Some people are smarter, taller, and more social than others. People are simply not the same.

No-one denies this. It's a complete strawman. The point is, from a moral viewpoint these things are arbitrary. People don't choose their genetic dispositions, and nor do they choose the society or place in society that they are born into. Factors outside the control of the individual account for the majority of their success in life. In what sense, then, does anyone 'deserve' to be rich at the expense of other people? Egalitarianism is founded on the claim that rich people to a large extent do not deserve to be rich, nor poor people to be poor. There is therefore no objection in that regard (though there are practical concerns) to levelling the playing field between the rich and poor, in terms of career opportunities and wealth reallocation.

Factors outside of the control of the individual don't account for the majority of the success in their life. Factors outside of the control account for the ENTIRE amount of success in someone's life.

Secondly, a person is just what happens when two people have unprotected sex. This is all a person is. People aren't born with rights to anything. All welfare programs are essentially child support...

So, you could say that no one "deserves" to be rich... In the same manner, you could also say that no one deserves to not be poor... You egalitarians say morality is relative... Then, why should we value equality above other things?
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darkkermit
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10/17/2011 10:37:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 3:29:34 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 10/17/2011 3:16:11 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Egalitarianism is meant to be equality under the law, equal opportunity, to all get a chance to roll the die, to all get a fair deal.

Those are four different conceptions-- or pseudoconceptions perhaps.

In truth, none of these concepts exist. It is impossible for everyone to have 'equal opportunity' since we all live in different locations, come from different backgrounds, and live in areas with different laws and different infrastructure. Same with equal under the law, since every nation has different laws.
Open borders debate:
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Kinesis
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10/17/2011 11:22:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 9:23:44 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Factors outside of the control account for the ENTIRE amount of success in someone's life.

Uh, no, they don't. Me choosing to stab myself in the head right now would fairly drastically alter my chances of success in later life.

Secondly, a person is just what happens when two people have unprotected sex. This is all a person is. People aren't born with rights to anything. All welfare programs are essentially child support...

wtf?

So, you could say that no one "deserves" to be rich... In the same manner, you could also say that no one deserves to not be poor... You egalitarians say morality is relative... Then, why should we value equality above other things?

How does egalitarianism entail moral relativism?
Kinesis
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10/17/2011 11:24:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 10:37:17 AM, darkkermit wrote:
In truth, none of these concepts exist. It is impossible for everyone to have 'equal opportunity' since we all live in different locations, come from different backgrounds, and live in areas with different laws and different infrastructure. Same with equal under the law, since every nation has different laws.

This is just quibbling with details. Obviously perfect equality can never be achieved - however, that doesn't mean we can't institute policies to level the playing field to a much greater extent than at present. Society can be much more equal, even if it will never be perfectly equal.
jimtimmy
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10/17/2011 2:37:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:22:10 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 10/17/2011 9:23:44 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Factors outside of the control account for the ENTIRE amount of success in someone's life.

Uh, no, they don't. Me choosing to stab myself in the head right now would fairly drastically alter my chances of success in later life.

Why do you chose to stab yourself over not stabbing yourself?

I don't know... Maybe, its because you were born into a terrible place or you have terrible genes.... Or, maybe, you just wanted to stab yourself... Which you were predisposed to do...

Secondly, a person is just what happens when two people have unprotected sex. This is all a person is. People aren't born with rights to anything. All welfare programs are essentially child support...

wtf?

Welfare Programs are based on the premise that by being born, people have a "right" to certain resourcess. Nobody ever explains why this is.

So, you could say that no one "deserves" to be rich... In the same manner, you could also say that no one deserves to not be poor... You egalitarians say morality is relative... Then, why should we value equality above other things?

How does egalitarianism entail moral relativism?

Egalitarians believe that all ideaologies and beliefs are equal, nothing can be better than anything else. This is somewhat similiar to Moral Relativism... where no objective morality exists...
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Mikeee
Posts: 234
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10/17/2011 2:38:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/16/2011 10:23:33 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
People are naturally different and unequal in most every way. Some people are smarter, taller, and more social than others. People are simply not the same.

The same goes for cultures and groups. Egalitarians also happen to thinkthat all ideaologies and religions are "Equal" in some sense. Islam is no worse than Christianity, according to these people.

Egalitarians also have a tendency to ignore reality to pursue their egalitarian ideas. They ignore economic laws and the genetic influences on Human Behavior in order to achieve their ends...

One theory, developed by Jared Diamond, of the development of inequality is partly due to agriculture. No civilization has a monopoly of smarter people. All people have different traits, but the same traits can be found in different people throughout the world. The answer my be as simple as geography. Not all places have an abundance of easily to grow and diet sustaining plants. Almost every civilization attempted farming at one point, but in some places it was easier than others, just because of the different plants that could be grown.

http://video.google.com...
darkkermit
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10/17/2011 6:58:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:24:49 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 10/17/2011 10:37:17 AM, darkkermit wrote:
In truth, none of these concepts exist. It is impossible for everyone to have 'equal opportunity' since we all live in different locations, come from different backgrounds, and live in areas with different laws and different infrastructure. Same with equal under the law, since every nation has different laws.

This is just quibbling with details. Obviously perfect equality can never be achieved - however, that doesn't mean we can't institute policies to level the playing field to a much greater extent than at present. Society can be much more equal, even if it will never be perfectly equal.

Sure, but do you level it up or do you level it down. Personally, leveling it down just makes people suffer more.
Open borders debate:
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sadolite
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10/17/2011 7:04:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You all live in the country that allows anyone to achieve anything they want if they put their mind to it. The problem is all the people who try half assed and fail. Then they expect someone else to pick up their half assed slack. And then socialism was born.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
jimtimmy
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10/17/2011 7:07:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 7:04:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
You all live in the country that allows anyone to achieve anything they want if they put their mind to it. The problem is all the people who try half assed and fail. Then they expect someone else to pick up their half assed slack. And then socialism was born.

Not true... Corporations write regulations to keep competitors out of the market... And, they are quite successful...
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sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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10/17/2011 7:14:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 7:07:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:04:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
You all live in the country that allows anyone to achieve anything they want if they put their mind to it. The problem is all the people who try half assed and fail. Then they expect someone else to pick up their half assed slack. And then socialism was born.

Not true... Corporations write regulations to keep competitors out of the market... And, they are quite successful...

That is an excuse not to try and give up. How did those who got where they are get past all the same crap. Do you think that crap is something new in the corporate world. There is always someone smarter that can get around it and someone always does because they put their mind to it and don't give up. You already gave up. You will never be successful because you have already put an excuse and a barrier in your way to not be successful. CEO's count on people like you to give up. You are one less person to worry about at the corporate level
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/17/2011 7:25:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 7:14:51 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:07:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:04:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
You all live in the country that allows anyone to achieve anything they want if they put their mind to it. The problem is all the people who try half assed and fail. Then they expect someone else to pick up their half assed slack. And then socialism was born.

Not true... Corporations write regulations to keep competitors out of the market... And, they are quite successful...

That is an excuse not to try and give up. How did those who got where they are get past all the same crap. Do you think that crap is something new in the corporate world. There is always someone smarter that can get around it and someone always does because they put their mind to it and don't give up. You already gave up. You will never be successful because you have already put an excuse and a barrier in your way to not be successful. CEO's count on people like you to give up. You are one less person to worry about at the corporate level

Ya, and they rule the state... Really, we shouldnt have a state
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sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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10/17/2011 7:30:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 7:25:22 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:14:51 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:07:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:04:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
You all live in the country that allows anyone to achieve anything they want if they put their mind to it. The problem is all the people who try half assed and fail. Then they expect someone else to pick up their half assed slack. And then socialism was born.

Not true... Corporations write regulations to keep competitors out of the market... And, they are quite successful...

That is an excuse not to try and give up. How did those who got where they are get past all the same crap. Do you think that crap is something new in the corporate world. There is always someone smarter that can get around it and someone always does because they put their mind to it and don't give up. You already gave up. You will never be successful because you have already put an excuse and a barrier in your way to not be successful. CEO's count on people like you to give up. You are one less person to worry about at the corporate level

Ya, and they rule the state... Really, we shouldnt have a state

You just reaffirm what I have just said in my previous comment. You are definitely no one to worry about on any level of work place competition. Forget the corporate level all together. You will be easily passed over for promotions at any job you do. You will always finish last.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/17/2011 7:34:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 7:30:26 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:25:22 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:14:51 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:07:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:04:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
You all live in the country that allows anyone to achieve anything they want if they put their mind to it. The problem is all the people who try half assed and fail. Then they expect someone else to pick up their half assed slack. And then socialism was born.

Not true... Corporations write regulations to keep competitors out of the market... And, they are quite successful...

That is an excuse not to try and give up. How did those who got where they are get past all the same crap. Do you think that crap is something new in the corporate world. There is always someone smarter that can get around it and someone always does because they put their mind to it and don't give up. You already gave up. You will never be successful because you have already put an excuse and a barrier in your way to not be successful. CEO's count on people like you to give up. You are one less person to worry about at the corporate level

Ya, and they rule the state... Really, we shouldnt have a state

You just reaffirm what I have just said in my previous comment. You are definitely no one to worry about on any level of work place competition. Forget the corporate level all together. You will be easily passed over for promotions at any job you do. You will always finish last.

Really?

Our society isn't nearly as fair and equitable as you think...
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sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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10/17/2011 7:49:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 7:34:09 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:30:26 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:25:22 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:14:51 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:07:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/17/2011 7:04:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
You all live in the country that allows anyone to achieve anything they want if they put their mind to it. The problem is all the people who try half assed and fail. Then they expect someone else to pick up their half assed slack. And then socialism was born.

Not true... Corporations write regulations to keep competitors out of the market... And, they are quite successful...

That is an excuse not to try and give up. How did those who got where they are get past all the same crap. Do you think that crap is something new in the corporate world. There is always someone smarter that can get around it and someone always does because they put their mind to it and don't give up. You already gave up. You will never be successful because you have already put an excuse and a barrier in your way to not be successful. CEO's count on people like you to give up. You are one less person to worry about at the corporate level

Ya, and they rule the state... Really, we shouldnt have a state

You just reaffirm what I have just said in my previous comment. You are definitely no one to worry about on any level of work place competition. Forget the corporate level all together. You will be easily passed over for promotions at any job you do. You will always finish last.

Really?

Our society isn't nearly as fair and equitable as you think...

Who told you life was fair? Life is a dog eat dog world. What do you think, you work 40 hours a week at a job and you earned something? Man are you living a delusion. Nothing is fair nothing is free nothing will be handed to you. You have a right to "try". That does not mean people will coddle you and show you the way. "They" are the competition me all other people. "They" will do anything they can to trip you up legal or illegal to prevent you from succeeding past them. Grow up and get a clue. It is up to you to wade your way through and work around all the obstacles that get in your way to your goal. And yes you to will have to trip people up and use tactics both legal and illegal to attain your goals. The key is learning how to succeed without anyone noticing you are stepping on their toes. The higher you go the more brutal it gets. That's why there are so few rich people. Not everyone can handle the pressure of high finance especially you. That's not fair whaaaaa what a joke.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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10/17/2011 10:54:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Two ways to live your life.

1. Bite your lip and live your life in this dog eat dog world. "A man's gotta eat".
2. Wave your flag, live your life in hope that people would stop eating eachother "whats the point of life if you don't try to improve the lives of future people?"
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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10/17/2011 11:26:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal.

I guess these guys were just full of SHlT.
Rob
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/17/2011 11:53:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:26:38 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal.

I guess these guys were just full of SHlT.

I guess they were...
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sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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10/18/2011 6:53:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/17/2011 11:26:38 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal.

I guess these guys were just full of SHlT.

"that all men are created equal"

With regard to the law. Unless you have a good lawyer then you become better.

As far as brains, No men are equal. As far as ambition, no men are equal, as far as business savy, no men are equal, as far as physical presence no men are equal.

The falicy is that if you try you will succede. 99% never try hard enough the other 1% did. I will do nothing to help a future generation being taught "entitlement".
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%