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We Are Not the State

jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.
President of DDO
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/21/2011 5:14:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
lol thats the point I make against Mestari in our secession debates. I completely agree.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/21/2011 4:44:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...

As far as the State is, we are customers and shareholders. Just like the shareholders of a company, we get to vote on who is incharge of the state/company.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/21/2011 4:52:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 4:44:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...

As far as the State is, we are customers and shareholders. Just like the shareholders of a company, we get to vote on who is incharge of the state/company.

Customers run companies... If they don't like what a company is doing, they stop buying the company's stuff... The state is the same way... Except, as you say, a majority can violently impose their will on minorities...
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/21/2011 5:06:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 4:52:49 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:44:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...

As far as the State is, we are customers and shareholders. Just like the shareholders of a company, we get to vote on who is incharge of the state/company.

Customers run companies... If they don't like what a company is doing, they stop buying the company's stuff... The state is the same way... Except, as you say, a majority can violently impose their will on minorities...

No, customers don't. They merely provide the road for the company, but they are not behind the wheel.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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10/21/2011 5:41:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:06:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:52:49 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:44:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...

As far as the State is, we are customers and shareholders. Just like the shareholders of a company, we get to vote on who is incharge of the state/company.

Customers run companies... If they don't like what a company is doing, they stop buying the company's stuff... The state is the same way... Except, as you say, a majority can violently impose their will on minorities...

No, customers don't. They merely provide the road for the company, but they are not behind the wheel.

Taxpayers are customers of the state, ergo, taxpayers aren't part of the state?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/21/2011 5:53:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:41:12 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 10/21/2011 5:06:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:52:49 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:44:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...

As far as the State is, we are customers and shareholders. Just like the shareholders of a company, we get to vote on who is incharge of the state/company.

Customers run companies... If they don't like what a company is doing, they stop buying the company's stuff... The state is the same way... Except, as you say, a majority can violently impose their will on minorities...

No, customers don't. They merely provide the road for the company, but they are not behind the wheel.

Taxpayers are customers of the state, ergo, taxpayers aren't part of the state?

Taxpayers are customers and shareholders. Just like shareholders, they have voting rights to dictate the control and direction of the company. I'm currently looking over the Winn-Dixie Notice of Annual Meeting of Shareholders. They are having a Board of Directors election this year, and it looks just like a political election (only less campaigning and slandering).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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10/21/2011 6:24:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Voluntaryists believe that if you vote, then you are the state. Participation in the system is acceptance of it.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/21/2011 6:32:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We are part of the State. The degree to which We have control over it is the degree to which We are it. The State is about half Us, I think.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/21/2011 6:40:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 6:24:37 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Voluntaryists believe that if you vote, then you are the state. Participation in the system is acceptance of it.

Which is odd, because people that vote tend to think that those that don't vote are accepting it (if you're not resisting, then you're accepting).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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10/23/2011 6:05:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:53:19 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 5:41:12 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 10/21/2011 5:06:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:52:49 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:44:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...

As far as the State is, we are customers and shareholders. Just like the shareholders of a company, we get to vote on who is incharge of the state/company.

Customers run companies... If they don't like what a company is doing, they stop buying the company's stuff... The state is the same way... Except, as you say, a majority can violently impose their will on minorities...

No, customers don't. They merely provide the road for the company, but they are not behind the wheel.

Taxpayers are customers of the state, ergo, taxpayers aren't part of the state?

Taxpayers are customers and shareholders. Just like shareholders, they have voting rights to dictate the control and direction of the company. I'm currently looking over the Winn-Dixie Notice of Annual Meeting of Shareholders. They are having a Board of Directors election this year, and it looks just like a political election (only less campaigning and slandering).

In many countries they aren't direct shareholders. The Electoral College in America, as well as the varying population per district often means that they don't all have equal shares as under a company. The metaphor of them being shareholders doesn't quite fit.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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10/23/2011 9:36:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/21/2011 5:06:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:52:49 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:44:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 4:38:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:33:18 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 2:20:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/21/2011 11:47:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/21/2011 12:26:25 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Statists say that "We" are the State... We aren't though...

The State is an institution that is legitamized by the population to aquire property in ways that nobody else can (taxation)...

Now, like all institutions, "We" do Legitimize the State... as in the state only exists because people support it...

But, the same is true of all corporations and businesses... They only exist because they supply what people demand....

So, no, "We" are not the State any more than "We" are the Corporations or "We" are any institution.

If you own a share of a company, you can say that "we (the shareholder) are the company" as you are the owners of the company.

I, as a customer, am the company

So are the shareholders, or the customers the company? Or both?

If "We" are the State, then it would be the customers...

As far as the State is, we are customers and shareholders. Just like the shareholders of a company, we get to vote on who is incharge of the state/company.

Customers run companies... If they don't like what a company is doing, they stop buying the company's stuff... The state is the same way... Except, as you say, a majority can violently impose their will on minorities...

No, customers don't. They merely provide the road for the company, but they are not behind the wheel.

And, taxpayers aren't behind the wheel of the state...
President of DDO