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Race and Intelligence

jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 5:28:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
As many of you may know, different races have different IQs.

Some people say that these differences are a result of environment, but they are not.

Why?

The evidence is overhwhelming... I was going to write all the reasons here... But there is no need. Rushton and Jensen summarized here:

"1. The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, both in the U. S. and in Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.

2. Race Differences are Most Pronounced on Tests that Best Measure the General Intelligence Factor (g). Black-White differences, for example, are larger on the Backward Digit Span test than on the less g loaded Forward Digit Span test.

3. The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.

4. Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.

5. Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.

6. Racial Admixture Studies. Black children with lighter skin, for example, average higher IQ scores. In South Africa, the IQ of the mixed-race "Colored" population averages 85, intermediate to the African 70 and White 100.

7. IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.

8. Race Differences in Other "Life-History" Traits. East Asians and Blacks consistently fall at two ends of a continuum with Whites intermediate on 60 measures of maturation, personality, reproduction, and social organization. For example, Black children sit, crawl, walk, and put on their clothes earlier than Whites or East Asians.

9. Race Differences and the Out-of-Africa theory of Human Origins. East Asian-White-Black differences fit the theory that modern humans arose in Africa about 100,000 years ago and expanded northward. During prolonged winters there was evolutionary selection for higher IQ created by problems of raising children, gathering and storing food, gaining shelter, and making clothes.

10. Do Culture-Only Theories Explain the Data? Culture-only theories do not explain the highly consistent pattern of race differences in IQ, especially the East Asian data. No interventions such as ending segregation, introducing school busing, or "Head Start" programs have reduced the gaps as culture-only theory would predict. "

http://www.rense.com...

Before anyone resorts to Ad Hominem on Rushton and Jensen, this research is just a compilation of research and findings by other scientists...
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jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 5:29:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:28:41 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
As many of you may know, different races have different IQs.

Some people say that these differences are a result of environment, but they are not.

Why?

The evidence is overhwhelming... I was going to write all the reasons here... But there is no need. Rushton and Jensen summarized here:

"1. The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, both in the U. S. and in Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.

2. Race Differences are Most Pronounced on Tests that Best Measure the General Intelligence Factor (g). Black-White differences, for example, are larger on the Backward Digit Span test than on the less g loaded Forward Digit Span test.

3. The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.

4. Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.

5. Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.

6. Racial Admixture Studies. Black children with lighter skin, for example, average higher IQ scores. In South Africa, the IQ of the mixed-race "Colored" population averages 85, intermediate to the African 70 and White 100.

7. IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages--Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100.

8. Race Differences in Other "Life-History" Traits. East Asians and Blacks consistently fall at two ends of a continuum with Whites intermediate on 60 measures of maturation, personality, reproduction, and social organization. For example, Black children sit, crawl, walk, and put on their clothes earlier than Whites or East Asians.

9. Race Differences and the Out-of-Africa theory of Human Origins. East Asian-White-Black differences fit the theory that modern humans arose in Africa about 100,000 years ago and expanded northward. During prolonged winters there was evolutionary selection for higher IQ created by problems of raising children, gathering and storing food, gaining shelter, and making clothes.

10. Do Culture-Only Theories Explain the Data? Culture-only theories do not explain the highly consistent pattern of race differences in IQ, especially the East Asian data. No interventions such as ending segregation, introducing school busing, or "Head Start" programs have reduced the gaps as culture-only theory would predict. "

http://www.rense.com...




Before anyone resorts to Ad Hominem on Rushton and Jensen, this research is just a compilation of research and findings by other scientists...

And, as a side note, I would gladly debate this topic with anyone...
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000ike
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10/22/2011 5:40:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Are you arguing that BECAUSE one is Black he automatically has lower IQ?...because I can name some famous African Americans right off the bat that are smarter than you by far.

Or, are you arguing that the majority of Black people have lower IQs, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they are Black? In which case, I would tell you that that may or may not be true, but is not a very offensive claim, it is rather the rhetoric with which you assert it that gives it an offensive quality.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
CosmicAlfonzo
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10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.
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000ike
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10/22/2011 5:50:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

If you read what he wrote carefully, you find that he actually did not come to any conclusion He didn't say "This proves that Black people are genetically less intelligent" or "Black people are thus, for the most part, stupid." He merely bombarded the issue with a plethora of IQ statistics that one could easily nullify with the mention of IQ testing limitations, inaccuracy, and poverty.

Forget about discrimination, the data isn't even SOUND yet.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 5:51:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:40:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
Are you arguing that BECAUSE one is Black he automatically has lower IQ?...because I can name some famous African Americans right off the bat that are smarter than you by far.

Or, are you arguing that the majority of Black people have lower IQs, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they are Black? In which case, I would tell you that that may or may not be true, but is not a very offensive claim, it is rather the rhetoric with which you assert it that gives it an offensive quality.

I can name a lot of people that understand averages better than you... I am not arguing that at alll... I am saying that Blacks have a lower average Intelligence that whites... That is all
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socialpinko
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10/22/2011 5:51:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

Do you mean being for it morally or legally? Because while I personally am against racial discrimination in private industry(restarurants, gyms, etc.) I am also against it being legally prohibited.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 5:53:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:50:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

If you read what he wrote carefully, you find that he actually did not come to any conclusion He didn't say "This proves that Black people are genetically less intelligent" or "Black people are thus, for the most part, stupid." He merely bombarded the issue with a plethora of IQ statistics that one could easily nullify with the mention of IQ testing limitations, inaccuracy, and poverty.

Forget about discrimination, the data isn't even SOUND yet.

Actually, you are totally wrong... Poverty doesn't cause low IQ... Low IQ tends to cause poverty.... Testing Limitations? Sure, they exist... But, they are not enough of an issue to "nullify" anything...

Inaccuracy... ditto
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000ike
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10/22/2011 5:54:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:51:27 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:40:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
Are you arguing that BECAUSE one is Black he automatically has lower IQ?...because I can name some famous African Americans right off the bat that are smarter than you by far.

Or, are you arguing that the majority of Black people have lower IQs, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they are Black? In which case, I would tell you that that may or may not be true, but is not a very offensive claim, it is rather the rhetoric with which you assert it that gives it an offensive quality.

I can name a lot of people that understand averages better than you... I am not arguing that at alll... I am saying that Blacks have a lower average Intelligence that whites... That is all

lol I never asserted you to be arguing anything. I was asking you a question, if you read carefully. Okay, if your argument is that and that ONLY, then its not very bad or racist. Provided that you make note and retain the knowledge that IQ is, by and large, a product of class.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 5:56:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:54:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:51:27 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:40:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
Are you arguing that BECAUSE one is Black he automatically has lower IQ?...because I can name some famous African Americans right off the bat that are smarter than you by far.

Or, are you arguing that the majority of Black people have lower IQs, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they are Black? In which case, I would tell you that that may or may not be true, but is not a very offensive claim, it is rather the rhetoric with which you assert it that gives it an offensive quality.

I can name a lot of people that understand averages better than you... I am not arguing that at alll... I am saying that Blacks have a lower average Intelligence that whites... That is all

lol I never asserted you to be arguing anything. I was asking you a question, if you read carefully. Okay, if your argument is that and that ONLY, then its not very bad or racist. Provided that you make note and retain the knowledge that IQ is, by and large, a product of class.

IQ is an explanation of Class... not a product of it...
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000ike
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10/22/2011 6:03:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:51:54 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

Do you mean being for it morally or legally? Because while I personally am against racial discrimination in private industry(restarurants, gyms, etc.) I am also against it being legally prohibited.

You know, If man had an individualist nature perhaps your anarchy, let everyone do as they wish, philosophy would be fair and sensible. Unfortunately, man never achieves happiness through isolated morals. Life is about imposing some form of morality on others, some code by which we ought to behave. Even natural rights, freedom, they all fall under this category. The notion of letting people do as they wish is simply not in the interest of man or in the interest of the HAPPINESS of man and the success of man. It can't happen, and frankly, nothing says or indicates that it should.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DanT
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10/22/2011 6:07:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
>.< That is racist.

(n) racism (the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

The truth is, every race has their geniuses, and every race has their idiots.

That said some races are more likely to have superior intelligence. For example being the Mediterranean Race and Semites are more likely to be more intelligent.

This is not due to race, so much as it's due to the fact that intelligence is genetic.
If every race had 5 people, and race x had 2 geniuses, and race y had 1 genius, than race x would have a 40% chance of being intelligent while race y only has a 20% chance.
Thus it has nothing to do with race, so much as the composition of the races.

Another example would be;

Let's say 3 in 5 Texans are obese, and 2 in 5 Floridians are obese.
This does not mean Texans are fatter then Floridians; it simply means Texas has more obese people in their population, than Florida.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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10/22/2011 6:41:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:28:41 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
As many of you may know, different races have different IQs.

As you know IQs are not a true measure of intelligence

Some people say that these differences are a result of environment, but they are not.

Intelligence is a Genotype
IQ scores are a Phenotype

Hence IQ scores are partly environment partly genetic, while intelligence is fully genetic.


Why?

The evidence is overhwhelming... I was going to write all the reasons here... But there is no need. Rushton and Jensen summarized here:

"1. The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, both in the U. S. and in Asia,

That is due to a higher Average intelligence

even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture.

Irrelevant

Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100;

Notice the word Average.

If I have 9 people, 3 with an IQ of 110, another 3 an IQ of 120, and another 3 an IQ of 130, the average would be 120.

If I had another group of 9 people, 4 with an IQ of 130, 3 with an IQ of 120, and 2 with an IQ of 60, the average IQ would be 111.

Group 2 has more people with high IQs but has a lower Average IQ.... Get my drift?

and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.


Example of Phenotype.

Genotype + Environment = Phenotype

IQ scores is Phenotype
Intelligence is Genotype

2. Race Differences are Most Pronounced on Tests that Best Measure the General Intelligence Factor (g). Black-White differences, for example, are larger on the Backward Digit Span test than on the less g loaded Forward Digit Span test.

3. The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.


Those types of twin experiments are crap.

I have a identical twin brother who has a lower IQ score than me. I qualified for the Gifted Class, he didn't. I have high processing skills, he has slow processing skills.

Some mental issues are not genetic, but rather environmental or even Phenotype.

In my brother's case I had more placenta in the womb, and as a result I got the stronger brain.

4. Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.


LOL........ Myth!!!!!

correlation does not equal causation

Brain size has nothing to do with intelligence.
The average Neandertal brain was actually larger than the brains of most Homo Sapiens.
Also the Male Human brain is 10% larger than the Female brain, with 4% more brain cells.



Before anyone resorts to Ad Hominem on Rushton and Jensen, this research is just a compilation of research and findings by other scientists...

It's nothing more than false assumptions, using a highly flawed test.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 7:03:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 6:03:36 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:51:54 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

Do you mean being for it morally or legally? Because while I personally am against racial discrimination in private industry(restarurants, gyms, etc.) I am also against it being legally prohibited.

You know, If man had an individualist nature perhaps your anarchy, let everyone do as they wish, philosophy would be fair and sensible. Unfortunately, man never achieves happiness through isolated morals. Life is about imposing some form of morality on others, some code by which we ought to behave. Even natural rights, freedom, they all fall under this category. The notion of letting people do as they wish is simply not in the interest of man or in the interest of the HAPPINESS of man and the success of man. It can't happen, and frankly, nothing says or indicates that it should.

I don't believe in objective morals and I don't believe in rights. Happiness is irrelevant. It is simply a label we put on a feeling that Human Beings sometimes get.

Now, I do oppose the state (with some qualifications). The reason for this is that the state is emergent... It is not some Omnipotent institution with an ability to control man... It simply has the ability to legitamitley use force to try to control man...

Based on my personal subjective moral sense, I think that the state's monopoly on force is immoral...
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000ike
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10/22/2011 7:18:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 7:03:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 6:03:36 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:51:54 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

Do you mean being for it morally or legally? Because while I personally am against racial discrimination in private industry(restarurants, gyms, etc.) I am also against it being legally prohibited.

You know, If man had an individualist nature perhaps your anarchy, let everyone do as they wish, philosophy would be fair and sensible. Unfortunately, man never achieves happiness through isolated morals. Life is about imposing some form of morality on others, some code by which we ought to behave. Even natural rights, freedom, they all fall under this category. The notion of letting people do as they wish is simply not in the interest of man or in the interest of the HAPPINESS of man and the success of man. It can't happen, and frankly, nothing says or indicates that it should.

I don't believe in objective morals and I don't believe in rights. Happiness is irrelevant. It is simply a label we put on a feeling that Human Beings sometimes get.

Now, I do oppose the state (with some qualifications). The reason for this is that the state is emergent... It is not some Omnipotent institution with an ability to control man... It simply has the ability to legitamitley use force to try to control man...

Based on my personal subjective moral sense, I think that the state's monopoly on force is immoral...

When the state is controlled by the people, your argument falls apart. Furthermore, Happiness is irrelevant? What? Happiness is the reason for ALL human endeavors. Are you joking?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 7:27:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 7:18:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 7:03:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 6:03:36 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:51:54 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

Do you mean being for it morally or legally? Because while I personally am against racial discrimination in private industry(restarurants, gyms, etc.) I am also against it being legally prohibited.

You know, If man had an individualist nature perhaps your anarchy, let everyone do as they wish, philosophy would be fair and sensible. Unfortunately, man never achieves happiness through isolated morals. Life is about imposing some form of morality on others, some code by which we ought to behave. Even natural rights, freedom, they all fall under this category. The notion of letting people do as they wish is simply not in the interest of man or in the interest of the HAPPINESS of man and the success of man. It can't happen, and frankly, nothing says or indicates that it should.

I don't believe in objective morals and I don't believe in rights. Happiness is irrelevant. It is simply a label we put on a feeling that Human Beings sometimes get.

Now, I do oppose the state (with some qualifications). The reason for this is that the state is emergent... It is not some Omnipotent institution with an ability to control man... It simply has the ability to legitamitley use force to try to control man...

Based on my personal subjective moral sense, I think that the state's monopoly on force is immoral...

When the state is controlled by the people, your argument falls apart. Furthermore, Happiness is irrelevant? What? Happiness is the reason for ALL human endeavors. Are you joking?

But, the state is not controlled by the people... It is an institution controlled by people that that the majority chooses to control it... Not the people... Or, maybe you're referring to Monarchy?

And, happiness is just a human feeling that humans sometimes get. There is no objective reason that happiness is superior to depression or anger. And, I would say that many human endeavors are more influenced by things like jealousy and anger...
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Wnope
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10/22/2011 8:17:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When we talk about average IQ differences, it helps to think of it in terms of distributions as opposed to a simple mean calculation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org...

This graph is not totally accurate, but it demonstrates a point about comparing IQ between populations.

The area between the ascending red line and descending purple line represents a percentage of black and white students who IQ scores are indistinguishable.

If the percentage of black and whites between that area rises to, say, 80% of each distribution, then although there is a difference between the races, the IQ results from a majority will show indistinguishable test scores.
jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 9:03:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 8:17:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
When we talk about average IQ differences, it helps to think of it in terms of distributions as opposed to a simple mean calculation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org...

This graph is not totally accurate, but it demonstrates a point about comparing IQ between populations.

The area between the ascending red line and descending purple line represents a percentage of black and white students who IQ scores are indistinguishable.

If the percentage of black and whites between that area rises to, say, 80% of each distribution, then although there is a difference between the races, the IQ results from a majority will show indistinguishable test scores.

This is what I am saying... But, there is no reason to believe that IQ gaps will close.
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Wnope
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10/22/2011 10:55:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 9:03:01 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 8:17:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
When we talk about average IQ differences, it helps to think of it in terms of distributions as opposed to a simple mean calculation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org...

This graph is not totally accurate, but it demonstrates a point about comparing IQ between populations.

The area between the ascending red line and descending purple line represents a percentage of black and white students who IQ scores are indistinguishable.

If the percentage of black and whites between that area rises to, say, 80% of each distribution, then although there is a difference between the races, the IQ results from a majority will show indistinguishable test scores.

This is what I am saying... But, there is no reason to believe that IQ gaps will close.

Never said they would (it is arguable either way). However, it also means that, depending on the distribution of each race, the actual differences in IQ test is negligible.

Like I said, if 80% of the distribution for blacks and whites are in the same area, then really all of your discussion only pertains to 10% of blacks and 10% of whites. Other than that group, test scores are indistinguishable between races.
CosmicAlfonzo
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10/22/2011 10:59:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:50:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
If you read what he wrote carefully, you find that he actually did not come to any conclusion He didn't say "This proves that Black people are genetically less intelligent" or "Black people are thus, for the most part, stupid." He merely bombarded the issue with a plethora of IQ statistics that one could easily nullify with the mention of IQ testing limitations, inaccuracy, and poverty.

Forget about discrimination, the data isn't even SOUND yet.

This isn't relevant to what I'm asking. I'm saying, if it WAS proven beyond a reasonable doubt that a race was mentally inferior to another, do you think this somehow justifies legal discrimination.

At 10/22/2011 5:51:54 PM, socialpinko wrote:

Do you mean being for it morally or legally? Because while I personally am against racial discrimination in private industry(restarurants, gyms, etc.) I am also against it being legally prohibited.

No, I'm not talking about legal protection. Personally, I think if a business wants to deny a certain race from taking part in transactions, they will suffer the consequences of that. I don't think opening up a business with a sign on the store that says "No niggers" would fly well. If they don't lose business, they will certainly have to deal with protesters and crime.
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jimtimmy
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10/22/2011 11:01:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 10:55:44 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 10/22/2011 9:03:01 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 8:17:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
When we talk about average IQ differences, it helps to think of it in terms of distributions as opposed to a simple mean calculation.

http://upload.wikimedia.org...

This graph is not totally accurate, but it demonstrates a point about comparing IQ between populations.

The area between the ascending red line and descending purple line represents a percentage of black and white students who IQ scores are indistinguishable.

If the percentage of black and whites between that area rises to, say, 80% of each distribution, then although there is a difference between the races, the IQ results from a majority will show indistinguishable test scores.

This is what I am saying... But, there is no reason to believe that IQ gaps will close.

Never said they would (it is arguable either way). However, it also means that, depending on the distribution of each race, the actual differences in IQ test is negligible.

Like I said, if 80% of the distribution for blacks and whites are in the same area, then really all of your discussion only pertains to 10% of blacks and 10% of whites. Other than that group, test scores are indistinguishable between races.

Distribution seems the same for every race...
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SirLego
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10/22/2011 11:24:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:28:41 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
As many of you may know, different races have different IQs.

Some people say that these differences are a result of environment, but they are not.

you have not provide evidence to support this.

and yes it is raciest. I am glad you are voicing you opinion.

( I suspect you could get similar results with any group)
Wnope
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10/22/2011 11:28:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 11:24:10 PM, SirLego wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:28:41 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
As many of you may know, different races have different IQs.

Some people say that these differences are a result of environment, but they are not.


you have not provide evidence to support this.

and yes it is raciest. I am glad you are voicing you opinion.

( I suspect you could get similar results with any group)

There's a lot to say on the subject, but there is evidence to be considered.

http://psychology.uwo.ca...

Personally, I think the debate is a little clouded by people focusing on outliers in the IQ distributions as opposed to the area intersecting two normal curves.
reasonable75
Posts: 211
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10/23/2011 12:40:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/22/2011 5:53:13 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:50:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

If you read what he wrote carefully, you find that he actually did not come to any conclusion He didn't say "This proves that Black people are genetically less intelligent" or "Black people are thus, for the most part, stupid." He merely bombarded the issue with a plethora of IQ statistics that one could easily nullify with the mention of IQ testing limitations, inaccuracy, and poverty.

Forget about discrimination, the data isn't even SOUND yet.

Actually, you are totally wrong... Poverty doesn't cause low IQ... Low IQ tends to cause poverty.... Testing Limitations? Sure, they exist... But, they are not enough of an issue to "nullify" anything...

Inaccuracy... ditto

This is laughably wrong. We know for instance that their are three major predictors on how high of an academic achievement level a person will have.

1. Income of their caregivers

2. Academic achievement level of their caregivers

3. Dollars per student for their school district

Is it by accident that school districts with higher funding(Usually liberal tendencies) have higher graduation rates?

Since southern states like Alabama (69%), Georgia (65.4%), Louisiana (63.5%), and Mississippi (63.9%), are all below 70% should I assume they're just inherently stupider? Perhaps people from the Northeast like Maine (79.1%), New Hampshire (83.4%), Vermont (89.3%), and Massachusetts (81.5%) are just naturally so intelligently superior?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com...

When we put infants through intelligence tests we see no significant difference form race to race. It's funny that Asians actually scored the worse in this particular paper:

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu...

Is it purely accident that IQ scores work out so perfectly with what we would expect if nurture had an effect on them?

Asians tend to score the highest on IQ tests and also tend to live in societies that highly value education. White's tend to live in societies a little less educationally emphasized, but tend to live in areas of high wealth. Blacks and Hispanics both tend to score lower, and also tend to live in areas of greater poverty.

The reliability of the IQ test as actually testing someone's "highest potential" is certainly in a lot of question. Psychologists and Cognitive scientists as a whole have known this for some time.(I press you to find one that says other wise.) In fact Alfred Binet (the creator of the original IQ test) felt his test was far too inaccurate, and was really only capable of spotting kids who needed extra help, not that those kids where inferior.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"There's a false assumption about science operating here. Science is not in principle committed to the idea that there's no after-life, or that the mind is identical to the brain, or that materialism is true. Science is completely open to whatever in fact is true." - Sam Harris

jimtimmy wrote:
"Look at me look at me look at me! I am a scary racist... trololololol. Oh noes somene is holding me to account for my sh1t."

Cerebral_Narcissist: "Cool story bro."
reasonable75
Posts: 211
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10/23/2011 12:44:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:40:55 AM, reasonable75 wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:53:13 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:50:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

If you read what he wrote carefully, you find that he actually did not come to any conclusion He didn't say "This proves that Black people are genetically less intelligent" or "Black people are thus, for the most part, stupid." He merely bombarded the issue with a plethora of IQ statistics that one could easily nullify with the mention of IQ testing limitations, inaccuracy, and poverty.

Forget about discrimination, the data isn't even SOUND yet.

Actually, you are totally wrong... Poverty doesn't cause low IQ... Low IQ tends to cause poverty.... Testing Limitations? Sure, they exist... But, they are not enough of an issue to "nullify" anything...

Inaccuracy... ditto

This is laughably wrong. We know for instance that their are three major predictors on how high of an academic achievement level a person will have.

1. Income of their caregivers

2. Academic achievement level of their caregivers

3. Dollars per student for their school district

Is it by accident that school districts with higher funding(Usually liberal tendencies) have higher graduation rates?

Since southern states like Alabama (69%), Georgia (65.4%), Louisiana (63.5%), and Mississippi (63.9%), are all below 70% should I assume they're just inherently stupider? Perhaps people from the Northeast like Maine (79.1%), New Hampshire (83.4%), Vermont (89.3%), and Massachusetts (81.5%) are just naturally so intelligently superior?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com...

When we put infants through intelligence tests we see no significant difference form race to race. It's funny that Asians actually scored the worse in this particular paper:

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu...

Is it purely accident that IQ scores work out so perfectly with what we would expect if nurture had an effect on them?

Asians tend to score the highest on IQ tests and also tend to live in societies that highly value education. White's tend to live in societies a little less educationally emphasized, but tend to live in areas of high wealth. Blacks and Hispanics both tend to score lower, and also tend to live in areas of greater poverty.

The reliability of the IQ test as actually testing someone's "highest potential" is certainly in a lot of question. Psychologists and Cognitive scientists as a whole have known this for some time.(I press you to find one that says other wise.) In fact Alfred Binet (the creator of the original IQ test) felt his test was far too inaccurate, and was really only capable of spotting kids who needed extra help, not that those kids where inferior.



http://en.wikipedia.org...

We know for instance that *there are three major predictors
"There's a false assumption about science operating here. Science is not in principle committed to the idea that there's no after-life, or that the mind is identical to the brain, or that materialism is true. Science is completely open to whatever in fact is true." - Sam Harris

jimtimmy wrote:
"Look at me look at me look at me! I am a scary racist... trololololol. Oh noes somene is holding me to account for my sh1t."

Cerebral_Narcissist: "Cool story bro."
reasonable75
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10/23/2011 1:18:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:44:59 AM, reasonable75 wrote:
At 10/23/2011 12:40:55 AM, reasonable75 wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:53:13 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:50:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

If you read what he wrote carefully, you find that he actually did not come to any conclusion He didn't say "This proves that Black people are genetically less intelligent" or "Black people are thus, for the most part, stupid." He merely bombarded the issue with a plethora of IQ statistics that one could easily nullify with the mention of IQ testing limitations, inaccuracy, and poverty.

Forget about discrimination, the data isn't even SOUND yet.

Actually, you are totally wrong... Poverty doesn't cause low IQ... Low IQ tends to cause poverty.... Testing Limitations? Sure, they exist... But, they are not enough of an issue to "nullify" anything...

Inaccuracy... ditto

This is laughably wrong. We know for instance that their are three major predictors on how high of an academic achievement level a person will have.

1. Income of their caregivers

2. Academic achievement level of their caregivers

3. Dollars per student for their school district

Is it by accident that school districts with higher funding(Usually liberal tendencies) have higher graduation rates?

Since southern states like Alabama (69%), Georgia (65.4%), Louisiana (63.5%), and Mississippi (63.9%), are all below 70% should I assume they're just inherently stupider? Perhaps people from the Northeast like Maine (79.1%), New Hampshire (83.4%), Vermont (89.3%), and Massachusetts (81.5%) are just naturally so intelligently superior?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com...

When we put infants through intelligence tests we see no significant difference form race to race. It's funny that Asians actually scored the worse in this particular paper:

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu...

Is it purely accident that IQ scores work out so perfectly with what we would expect if nurture had an effect on them?

Asians tend to score the highest on IQ tests and also tend to live in societies that highly value education. White's tend to live in societies a little less educationally emphasized, but tend to live in areas of high wealth. Blacks and Hispanics both tend to score lower, and also tend to live in areas of greater poverty.

The reliability of the IQ test as actually testing someone's "highest potential" is certainly in a lot of question. Psychologists and Cognitive scientists as a whole have known this for some time.(I press you to find one that says other wise.) In fact Alfred Binet (the creator of the original IQ test) felt his test was far too inaccurate, and was really only capable of spotting kids who needed extra help, not that those kids where inferior.



http://en.wikipedia.org...

We know for instance that *there are three major predictors

This is not to mention that there is more diversity within any given race then in between them, making many realize that from a biological standpoint race doesn't hold up as a strong category.

http://faculty.sgc.edu...
"There's a false assumption about science operating here. Science is not in principle committed to the idea that there's no after-life, or that the mind is identical to the brain, or that materialism is true. Science is completely open to whatever in fact is true." - Sam Harris

jimtimmy wrote:
"Look at me look at me look at me! I am a scary racist... trololololol. Oh noes somene is holding me to account for my sh1t."

Cerebral_Narcissist: "Cool story bro."
jimtimmy
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10/23/2011 9:34:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:40:55 AM, reasonable75 wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:53:13 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:50:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/22/2011 5:46:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Now the real question is whether or not you support things such as legal discrimination base on race.

Whether or not blacks are genetically less intelligent, they are sentient beings, and if you treat them as anything less than human, I couldn't be for that.

If you read what he wrote carefully, you find that he actually did not come to any conclusion He didn't say "This proves that Black people are genetically less intelligent" or "Black people are thus, for the most part, stupid." He merely bombarded the issue with a plethora of IQ statistics that one could easily nullify with the mention of IQ testing limitations, inaccuracy, and poverty.

Forget about discrimination, the data isn't even SOUND yet.

Actually, you are totally wrong... Poverty doesn't cause low IQ... Low IQ tends to cause poverty.... Testing Limitations? Sure, they exist... But, they are not enough of an issue to "nullify" anything...

Inaccuracy... ditto

This is laughably wrong. We know for instance that their are three major predictors on how high of an academic achievement level a person will have.

1. Income of their caregivers

2. Academic achievement level of their caregivers

3. Dollars per student for their school district

Is it by accident that school districts with higher funding(Usually liberal tendencies) have higher graduation rates?

Since southern states like Alabama (69%), Georgia (65.4%), Louisiana (63.5%), and Mississippi (63.9%), are all below 70% should I assume they're just inherently stupider? Perhaps people from the Northeast like Maine (79.1%), New Hampshire (83.4%), Vermont (89.3%), and Massachusetts (81.5%) are just naturally so intelligently superior?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com...

When we put infants through intelligence tests we see no significant difference form race to race. It's funny that Asians actually scored the worse in this particular paper:

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu...

Is it purely accident that IQ scores work out so perfectly with what we would expect if nurture had an effect on them?

Asians tend to score the highest on IQ tests and also tend to live in societies that highly value education. White's tend to live in societies a little less educationally emphasized, but tend to live in areas of high wealth. Blacks and Hispanics both tend to score lower, and also tend to live in areas of greater poverty.

The reliability of the IQ test as actually testing someone's "highest potential" is certainly in a lot of question. Psychologists and Cognitive scientists as a whole have known this for some time.(I press you to find one that says other wise.) In fact Alfred Binet (the creator of the original IQ test) felt his test was far too inaccurate, and was really only capable of spotting kids who needed extra help, not that those kids where inferior.



http://en.wikipedia.org...

You're the one who is laughably wrong... The reason that school disctricts with higher funding might have higher graduation rates is not accident... It is because the people of that disctrict ahve more influence in government, because they have higher incomes...

You obviously don't understand elementary science on this issue... It is well known that Genetics get stronger as people get older... This is fact... so, it is no surprise taht infants had no to very small IQ differences....

Um, have you ever wandered why Asians live in societies that "value" education or why blacks don't?

Because, that is their nature... Dumber cultures value education a lot less... I thought that was pretty obvious... And, blacks and hispanics live in poverty because of their lower IQs...

And, IQ has major correlation with life outcomes...
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nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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10/23/2011 12:43:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You're quoting Rushton? Seriously?

It's amazing how people purport a veil of "science" to hide behind their bigotry. Especially when their methods are completely unscientific and unsupported by science. Brain size is correlated with intelligence? Lololololol
jimtimmy
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10/23/2011 1:22:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 12:43:46 PM, nonentity wrote:
You're quoting Rushton? Seriously?

It's amazing how people purport a veil of "science" to hide behind their bigotry. Especially when their methods are completely unscientific and unsupported by science. Brain size is correlated with intelligence? Lololololo

I'm not gonna even dignify this idiocy with a response
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Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/23/2011 1:33:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/23/2011 9:34:08 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
You're the one who is laughably wrong...

He didn't laugh at your or mock you at all. Given you interpreted it this way, you clearly see the weaknesses in your own argument and you're embarrassed.

You obviously don't understand elementary science on this issue... It is well known that Genetics get stronger as people get older... This is fact... so, it is no surprise taht infants had no to very small IQ differences....

Nothing in genetics is elementary. However, if intelligence is so correlated to brain size, as you purport in earlier posts, then phenotypic expression is irrelevant, given a difference in brain size is something that can be expressed at birth.

Um, have you ever wandered why Asians live in societies that "value" education or why blacks don't?

Wondered.

Anyway, that is a political issue, not a social one. Japanese students don't wake up every day excited because they get to study. They are just like Americans, beset by a different construct.

Because, that is their nature... Dumber cultures value education a lot less... I thought that was pretty obvious... And, blacks and hispanics live in poverty because of their lower IQs...

The United States, with its tragically failed education system, continues to shape the economic and social condition of the entire world. Everything from our media and artistic expression to our products and innovations permeate every society on the planet.

And, IQ has major correlation with life outcomes...

Lol.

The second and third oldest people in the world are American. The first is French.

Buh-buh-buh, what about Asians? ^_^