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Freedom of Religion

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/27/2011 1:41:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

You do. You have freedom to believe in any religion that you want, without fear of punishment from the government for that belief. Any actions that you act our are still subject to law (murder, harassment, assult, etc).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/27/2011 1:43:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

Why can't I hire a hitman to kill you, I thought I had freedom of speech.

Why can't I hang out with an Al-Qaeda cell and go bowling without worrying about being killed by a drone, I thought I had freedom of association.

Why can't I rape your wife, it will make me happy and I am allowed to pursue happiness.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 1:55:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, PRACTICE, worship, and observance."
-- Wikipedia

So can the government tell you which passages of your cherished a you can and cannot follow?

Perhaps we should have a new law which lists specifically which passages are ok to follow from each holy book so that religious followers can know which passages they are "free" to practice.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/27/2011 1:57:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:55:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, PRACTICE, worship, and observance."
-- Wikipedia

So can the government tell you which passages of your cherished a you can and cannot follow?

Perhaps we should have a new law which lists specifically which passages are ok to follow from each holy book so that religious followers can know which passages they are "free" to practice.

Or maybe we will just go with the pre-existing common sense approach....
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/27/2011 2:05:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:55:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, PRACTICE, worship, and observance."
-- Wikipedia

So can the government tell you which passages of your cherished a you can and cannot follow?

Perhaps we should have a new law which lists specifically which passages are ok to follow from each holy book so that religious followers can know which passages they are "free" to practice.

And as with ALL FREEDOMS (according to libertarians), your rights end where another person's begins. Meaning your freedom of X cannot cross over to another person's freedom (like their right to life).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 2:08:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:57:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:55:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, PRACTICE, worship, and observance."
-- Wikipedia

So can the government tell you which passages of your cherished a you can and cannot follow?

Perhaps we should have a new law which lists specifically which passages are ok to follow from each holy book so that religious followers can know which passages they are "free" to practice.

Or maybe we will just go with the pre-existing common sense approach....

People who believe in talking snakes, space daddies, Jonah and the whale, and demons might have a bit of trouble in that department.

What is "common sense" to someone who already believes in a whole bunch of not-common-sense things? I don't think the Jihadists knew that their actions defied common sense.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/27/2011 2:10:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:08:14 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:57:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:55:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, PRACTICE, worship, and observance."
-- Wikipedia

So can the government tell you which passages of your cherished a you can and cannot follow?

Perhaps we should have a new law which lists specifically which passages are ok to follow from each holy book so that religious followers can know which passages they are "free" to practice.

Or maybe we will just go with the pre-existing common sense approach....

People who believe in talking snakes, space daddies, Jonah and the whale, and demons might have a bit of trouble in that department.

What is "common sense" to someone who already believes in a whole bunch of not-common-sense things? I don't think the Jihadists knew that their actions defied common sense.

Hence the state, and laws and the imposition of such laws. Freedom of Religion is Freedom of Conscience.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 2:15:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:05:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:55:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, PRACTICE, worship, and observance."
-- Wikipedia

So can the government tell you which passages of your cherished a you can and cannot follow?

Perhaps we should have a new law which lists specifically which passages are ok to follow from each holy book so that religious followers can know which passages they are "free" to practice.

And as with ALL FREEDOMS (according to libertarians), your rights end where another person's begins. Meaning your freedom of X cannot cross over to another person's freedom (like their right to life).

Sure, so since coercing or aggressing other individuals is not allowed, perhaps certain religions which involve aggression and slaughter should be banned just like being a member of Al Quida is banned. Being members of violent or terror organizations is already illegal as far as I know.

Speeking of which, I think the Bible was actually outlawed in some Asian country because it was deemed too violent and grusome.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 2:33:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:28:23 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I dont think the bible tells you to stone the people who dont follow the bible.

It tells you to stone:

Gay people
Rape victims
Adulterers
Nonbelievers
etc.

See Deuteronomy, Numbers, Exodus, etc.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/27/2011 2:36:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:28:23 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I dont think the bible tells you to stone the people who dont follow the bible.

lol The Bible is a book of the Roman Empire. It was written by HUMAN BEINGS, apt ones, who did not know anything about nature, and supplemented their ineptitude with assertive stories. Now that we know better, the modern Christians are trying to say, "no, don't take the Bible so literally." The Bible also says that the Red sea defied the laws of physics to let a man pass. 2 humans, adam and eve, popped out of nowhere onto Earth and procreated. A global flood swallowed the Earth, and only one man, his family, and a bunch of animals survived on one boat.

lol I can go on forever. Christians make me feel less and less theistic even though I do believe in a higher power, just out of faith and inkling. I just don't think I can come to any conclusions on who he is and what he does, like other people think they can.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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10/27/2011 2:39:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:55:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, PRACTICE, worship, and observance."
-- Wikipedia

So can the government tell you which passages of your cherished a you can and cannot follow?

Perhaps we should have a new law which lists specifically which passages are ok to follow from each holy book so that religious followers can know which passages they are "free" to practice.

It is in the "practice" that the gov't has decided to regulate. It was around the turn of the 20th century when mormons were told by the SJC that they were not allowed to practice polygamy because their practice was subordinate to the laws of the land. Polygamy is pretty benign, but the courts still opted toward the existing laws of monogamy despite the religious freedom in the first amendment.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/27/2011 3:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

I fvcking hate you. What exactly is your point seeing as how none of us actually do this in America?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/27/2011 4:00:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 2:33:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:28:23 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I dont think the bible tells you to stone the people who dont follow the bible.

It tells you to stone:

Gay people
Rape victims
Adulterers
Nonbelievers
etc.

See Deuteronomy, Numbers, Exodus, etc.

So your beef is with Jew then. Jesus himself declared those laws as outdated and immoral
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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10/27/2011 4:01:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

First, we do not have freedom of religion we have protection from government enforced religion. Second, any rights delineated in the Constitution are there as prohibitions for the Government not for us. In short, the Constitution applies to the Government limiting its actions, thus a law may be passed prohibiting behaviors deemed to be harmful to society as a whole, like individual executions for religious transgressions.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:10:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:00:23 PM, MarquisX wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:33:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 2:28:23 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I dont think the bible tells you to stone the people who dont follow the bible.

It tells you to stone:

Gay people
Rape victims
Adulterers
Nonbelievers
etc.

See Deuteronomy, Numbers, Exodus, etc.

So your beef is with Jew then. Jesus himself declared those laws as outdated and immoral

- Jesus was a Jew and king of the Jews
- Jesus said "Do not think I have come to abolish the law..."
- Why would Jesus call his dad's (who is also the same person as Jesus) moral code "immoral." Jesus' believes God is righteous not to mention, Jesus is God.
- The OT is part of the Bible, the sacred scripture of Christians. If Christians should discard the OT, why do so many still believe Genesis to be central in Christianity?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:15:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 3:57:39 PM, MarquisX wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

I fvcking hate you.

U mad? lol

What exactly is your point seeing as how none of us actually do this in America?

A 28 y/o man stoned a 70 year old gay man to death in America.
But the point is, Biblical literalists should be allowed to do everything the Bible says because the Constitution says freedom of religion. I think people should take their texts more seriously and act on them so people could actually see how insane some popular religions are when truly applied, not the watered down Liberal version.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/27/2011 4:19:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 3:57:39 PM, MarquisX wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

I fvcking hate you. What exactly is your point seeing as how none of us actually do this in America?

Yes, you bear hatred for another human, but somehow you'll go to heaven for simply believing in God, and everyone else, honest, pure, ethical people will go to hell for not believing? What a shallow set of beliefs you hold with this religion.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/27/2011 4:30:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@MarquisX

Even if you discard the OT, what about New Testament atrocities?

"Honor your father and mother and anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."
-- Jesus (Matthew 15:4-7)

At least in the OT the punishment was stone to death, the NT says the punishment is eternal torture in most cases.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/27/2011 4:51:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I fail to understand the issue or the point being raised. Freedoms extend until the Freedoms of others are infringed upon. The Freedom of Religion allows the practice of religion to the point where others have their freedom infringed upon. This isn't a partial freedom of religion, it's a full freedom of religion. You don't even have to curb your practice. If you put your religion over the law, and your religion tells you to perform acts that go against the law, then by all means go ahead and do it. You just have to deal with the consequences, that's all.

Following your religion and following the law are separate things.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/27/2011 4:55:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:15:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:57:39 PM, MarquisX wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

I fvcking hate you.

U mad? lol
No. Just annoyed.

What exactly is your point seeing as how none of us actually do this in America?

A 28 y/o man stoned a 70 year old gay man to death in America.
Really? Where's the article?
But the point is, Biblical literalists should be allowed to do everything the Bible says because the Constitution says freedom of religion. I think people should take their texts more seriously and act on them so people could actually see how insane some popular religions are when truly applied, not the watered down Liberal version.

Geo is advocating that the government should allow us to murder gays and non-believers in order for his point to be proved. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Does anyone take this moron seriously?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/27/2011 4:58:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:19:20 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/27/2011 3:57:39 PM, MarquisX wrote:
At 10/27/2011 1:38:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why can't I carry a Bible around and stone people who mow the lawn on Saturday? Why can't I do human sacrifices? Why can't people stone gay people? Or adulterers? Why can't I burn pagans and slaughter infedels?

I thought we have freedom of religion.

I fvcking hate you. What exactly is your point seeing as how none of us actually do this in America?

Yes, you bear hatred for another human, but somehow you'll go to heaven for simply believing in God, and everyone else, honest, pure, ethical people will go to hell for not believing? What a shallow set of beliefs you hold with this religion.

I'm not going to heaven. And you keep bringing this up. Are you afraid of hell? You don't even seem like you don't believe. It's like you do believe and you don't want to.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/27/2011 5:10:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 4:55:34 PM, MarquisX wrote:
Geo is advocating that the government should allow us to murder gays and non-believers in order for his point to be proved. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Does anyone take this moron seriously?

I don't think that's what he's implying. He's doing this frequent DDO trick where someone has a realization about an old issue, restarts debate, then holds back his new trick to see how people respond to it. The problem is that he's not doing a very good job expressing his new "idea". I think it has something to do with the notion that Freedom of Religion entails that people are free to practice their religion in its entirety. Most of us exclude the parts of religion that infringe on the rights of others. I think he's arguing that Freedom of Religion definitively allows us to practice religion regardless of the rights of others.

Which is a new argument, but a terrible one, and one that I already responded to up thar ^
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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10/27/2011 5:19:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 5:10:14 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 10/27/2011 4:55:34 PM, MarquisX wrote:
Geo is advocating that the government should allow us to murder gays and non-believers in order for his point to be proved. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Does anyone take this moron seriously?

I don't think that's what he's implying. He's doing this frequent DDO trick where someone has a realization about an old issue, restarts debate, then holds back his new trick to see how people respond to it. The problem is that he's not doing a very good job expressing his new "idea". I think it has something to do with the notion that Freedom of Religion entails that people are free to practice their religion in its entirety. Most of us exclude the parts of religion that infringe on the rights of others. I think he's arguing that Freedom of Religion definitively allows us to practice religion regardless of the rights of others.

Which is a new argument, but a terrible one, and one that I already responded to up thar ^

I'm sorry. I'm not following you. Does he have a problem with theist for not killing people or a problem with the freedom of religion for not allowing us?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/27/2011 5:25:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/27/2011 5:19:59 PM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm sorry. I'm not following you. Does he have a problem with theist for not killing people or a problem with the freedom of religion for not allowing us?

I'm really just guessing myself, but this is the argument I think he is making:

1. Freedom of Religion gives us freedom to practice a personal Religion without interference by government.

2. Some Religious codes include things that are illegal, which infringe on the rights of others.

3. It is OK for these acts to infringe on the rights of others, because Freedom of Religion allows people to practice their FULL religion, not just the parts that are okay.

So essentially, he is arguing that the Freedom of Religion should be absolute, and supercede the rights of other people.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/27/2011 5:25:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So to answer your question, its the second thing. He has a problem with Freedom of Religion because it doesn't let us kill people.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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10/27/2011 5:29:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My lord, it would be ANARCHY!
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/27/2011 5:35:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
oh noooo *half-hearted emotionless flailing of arms*
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.