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Universal Health Care Reform

Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/1/2011 11:57:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Mongeese brought up a pretty good point. Maybe people wanted to discuss the Universal Healthcare Reform Bill. It is unfair of me to hijack a thread due to my personal interests in humiliating someone who's irritated me for a week.

That said, let's continue -- what is Universal Healthcare Reform?

This link will tell you everything you need to know, but I'll paste the meat of it here:

- Require most U.S. citizens and legal residents to have health insurance.

- Create state-based American Health Benefit Exchanges through which individuals can purchase coverage, with premium and cost-sharing credits available to individuals/families with income between 133-400% of the federal poverty
level (the poverty level is $18,310 for a family of three in 2009) and create separate Exchanges through which small businesses can purchase coverage.

- Require employers to pay penalties for employees who receive tax credits for health insurance through an Exchange, with exceptions for small employers.

- Impose new regulations on health plans in the Exchanges and in the individual and small group markets. Expand Medicaid to 133% of the federal poverty level"

The changes will apply gradually, with new aspects of the legislation coming into effect every four years. The most recent changes include:

Changes to note:

- 50% discount for name-brand drugs in the Medicare "donut hole"

- Expanded coverage for young adults

- Small business tax credits

- Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plans

What happens if you don't acquire coverage:

"Those without coverage pay a tax penalty of the greater of $695 per year up to a maximum of three times that amount ($2,085) per family or 2.5% of household income. The penalty will be phased-in according to the following schedule: $95 in 2014, $325 in 2015, and $695 in 2016 for the flat fee or 1.0% of taxable income in 2014, 2.0% of taxable income in 2015, and 2.5% of taxable income in 2016. Beginning after 2016, the penalty will be increased annually by the cost-of-living adjustment."

Of course, there are exceptions, including:

"financial hardship, religious objections, American Indians, those without coverage for less than three months, undocumented immigrants, incarcerated individuals, those for whom the lowest cost plan option exceeds 8% of an individual's income, and those with incomes below the tax filing threshold (in 2009 the threshold for taxpayers under age 65 was $9,350 for singles and $18,700 for couples).

Now that we know the facts, I can say that I strongly advocate the legislation. There should be no American without access to healthcare, and the federal government does not have the resources necessary to personally provide that healthcare itself, whether through direct provision or subsidy.

When someone is laying there dying in an ER, whether he or she can afford to keep his or her life should not come into question.

Making it compulsory may come into question, but I fancy that this legislation would have been too expensive without that provision.

Discuss. :)
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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11/2/2011 12:04:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The entire concept of having health insurance through a job seems ridiculous to me. Why should your employer manage your health insurance? This means that whenever you lose your job, you also lose your coverage. It also means that if you don't like the coverage that your job provides, too bad, you're getting it.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!
President of DDO
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/2/2011 12:10:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

I'm pretty sure they make it compulsory so that there remains enough money circulating in the healthcare industry to prevent stagnating innovation, long waiting times, and overall quality of medical provisions.

Moreover, the tax requirements, exceptions, and small business Exchange format completely detract from any socialistic quality this could have.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/2/2011 12:13:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The bill was a step forward but all-in-all I'm very disappointed by it. Democrats had the white house and a super-majority in congress and it was absolutely squandered.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/2/2011 12:13:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 12:13:14 AM, FREEDO wrote:
The bill was a step forward but all-in-all I'm very disappointed by it. Democrats had the white house and a super-majority in congress and it was absolutely squandered.

Meaning we could have passed Universal Health Care.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/2/2011 8:01:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 12:10:48 AM, Ren wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

I'm pretty sure they make it compulsory so that there remains enough money circulating in the healthcare industry to prevent stagnating innovation, long waiting times, and overall quality of medical provisions.

Well, they do a shiity job... Plus, no matter how much the state extracts from its people, it will still not be able to coordinate resources well in the absence of a price system

Moreover, the tax requirements, exceptions, and small business Exchange format completely detract from any socialistic quality this could have.

Really?

So, the fact that onl some people won't be violently robbed means it is not robbery?
President of DDO
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid
President of DDO
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/2/2011 2:51:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

The UK is a leading country for medical research, sure the NHS is far from perfect and may very well be privatised 'soon' but if you crunch the numbers it is superior to most private sector rivals.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/2/2011 4:29:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

http://www.who.int...
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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11/2/2011 4:40:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 4:29:04 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

http://www.who.int...

http://www.cato.org...

"The WHO rankings depend crucially on a number of underlying assumptions—some of them logically incoherent, some characterized by substantialuncertainty, and some rooted in ideological beliefs and values that not everyone shares."
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/2/2011 6:24:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 4:29:04 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

http://www.who.int...

Ren, I've debated Universal Health Care twice... If you are relying on that outdated and discredited study for your argument, then you are truly retarded
President of DDO
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/2/2011 6:25:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 2:51:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

The UK is a leading country for medical research, sure the NHS is far from perfect and may very well be privatised 'soon' but if you crunch the numbers it is superior to most private sector rivals.

The US is far, far ahead of any other country in terms of medical innovation... a vast majority of medical innovation comes from the US

That is not to say that the US system is a "free market"... but it does have a large private sector, where medical innovation comes from
President of DDO
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/2/2011 7:31:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 6:24:22 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 4:29:04 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

http://www.who.int...

Ren, I've debated Universal Health Care twice... If you are relying on that outdated and discredited study for your argument, then you are truly retarded

Lmfaoooo, you idiot, then why didn't you post that criticism? Why did Mongeese have to? It might best serve your cause if you were to keep your mouth shut.

And, to reply --

That single critic from that organization did bring up some good points -- that the ranking system was partially ideological and favors government involvement. Reviewing related information, I can say that although it's arguable and still up to interpretation, the critic was not making that up.

So, I went through some other sources of information and found the Commonwealth Fund. They are a private organization that has no vested political interests, which should alleviate issues brought up about the WHO.

This is where I derived the most revealing information: http://www.commonwealthfund.org...

The United States is very comparable to first-world countries in terms of hard statistical data like life expectancy, loss of years due to diseases and the sophistication of medical systems. However, it was never #1 -- in fact, never even #3--in terms of things life life expectancy, but it was always #1 in terms of things like Deaths Due to Surgical or Medical Mishaps (a number it shared with Germany and France), Potential Years of Life Lost Due to Diseases, and others. In fact, it is one of the few countries that does not provide healthcare to its entire nation, but remains the largest spender on healthcare per capita. Nonetheless, it does not have the most sophistication, innovation, or life expectancy. For all intents and purposes, healthcare in the United States is dramatically inferior, though exorbitantly more expensive, than any healthcare in Europe or Australia.

Whether or not you agree with how American Healthcare was reformed, it required reformation.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/2/2011 7:54:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 7:31:38 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/2/2011 6:24:22 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 4:29:04 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

"The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan."

http://www.who.int...

Ren, I've debated Universal Health Care twice... If you are relying on that outdated and discredited study for your argument, then you are truly retarded

Lmfaoooo, you idiot, then why didn't you post that criticism? Why did Mongeese have to? It might best serve your cause if you were to keep your mouth shut.

And, to reply --

That single critic from that organization did bring up some good points -- that the ranking system was partially ideological and favors government involvement. Reviewing related information, I can say that although it's arguable and still up to interpretation, the critic was not making that up.

So, I went through some other sources of information and found the Commonwealth Fund. They are a private organization that has no vested political interests, which should alleviate issues brought up about the WHO.

Commonwealth Fund isnt all that unbiased

This is where I derived the most revealing information: http://www.commonwealthfund.org...

The United States is very comparable to first-world countries in terms of hard statistical data like life expectancy, loss of years due to diseases and the sophistication of medical systems. However, it was never #1 -- in fact, never even #3--in terms of things life life expectancy, but it was always #1 in terms of things like Deaths Due to Surgical or Medical Mishaps (a number it shared with Germany and France), Potential Years of Life Lost Due to Diseases, and others. In fact, it is one of the few countries that does not provide healthcare to its entire nation, but remains the largest spender on healthcare per capita. Nonetheless, it does not have the most sophistication, innovation, or life expectancy. For all intents and purposes, healthcare in the United States is dramatically inferior, though exorbitantly more expensive, than any healthcare in Europe or Australia.


Dealt with this in my last debate too
Whether or not you agree with how American Healthcare was reformed, it required reformation.
President of DDO
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,282
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11/2/2011 11:20:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is quite obvious from the WHO assessment of the top 5 'Healthy' countries, that USA must reduce its military budget to French or Japanese levels.....
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/3/2011 6:42:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 6:25:37 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:51:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

The UK is a leading country for medical research, sure the NHS is far from perfect and may very well be privatised 'soon' but if you crunch the numbers it is superior to most private sector rivals.

The US is far, far ahead of any other country in terms of medical innovation... a vast majority of medical innovation comes from the US

Irrelevant. Your claim is that state systems squash all innovation. The UK with a fraction of the wealth of the US still advances medical science.

That is not to say that the US system is a "free market"... but it does have a large private sector, where medical innovation comes from

Then from what is UK medical innovation derived?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/3/2011 7:14:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 6:42:51 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 6:25:37 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:51:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:23:55 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 11/2/2011 2:01:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/2/2011 12:07:57 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Ya, lets violently force everyone to pay for a Health Care System that has no medical innovation, long waiting times, and shiity quality

GO STATE SOCIALISM!!!

Why would the American version have these issues more so than any other state system?

What state systems fit your description?

What I described is taking place in virtually every developed country... Canada, UK, etc...

And,the US does it through medicare and medicaid

The UK is a leading country for medical research, sure the NHS is far from perfect and may very well be privatised 'soon' but if you crunch the numbers it is superior to most private sector rivals.

The US is far, far ahead of any other country in terms of medical innovation... a vast majority of medical innovation comes from the US

Irrelevant. Your claim is that state systems squash all innovation. The UK with a fraction of the wealth of the US still advances medical science.

Barely... and I only said that state systems greatly reduce innnovation, which is trye...

That is not to say that the US system is a "free market"... but it does have a large private sector, where medical innovation comes from

Then from what is UK medical innovation derived?

A private sector, that is smalller than the US private sector
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/3/2011 9:19:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
How is it that the UK's NHS is a leading source of medical innovation?

Why is it that the healthiest countries have some form of provision for state health.

Why is it that the USA is only about 34th in terms of life expectancy, well behind UK, Japan and Singapore which all have some provision for state health care?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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11/3/2011 12:23:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 9:19:56 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
How is it that the UK's NHS is a leading source of medical innovation?

Its not... all the systems in the world are largely state run... Except the US, even though there is a lot of state intervention, is not really state run...

Now, compared to all the other systems, the US is also far ahead in medical innovation...

The NHS is doing okay compared to other state run systems, and this says nothing about how good or bad state run systems are....

The US is far ahead of all the state run systems in medical innovation.

Why is it that the healthiest countries have some form of provision for state health.

There is no correlation here.... Again, all first world countries but the US have universal health coverage...

And, the only non universal system is full of homicide, obesity, etc... All bad things that have very little to nothing to do with health care system

You can't just look at correlations and make judgements.... you need to interpret what they actually mean

Why is it that the USA is only about 34th in terms of life expectancy, well behind UK, Japan and Singapore which all have some provision for state health care?

A few reasons: Homicide, car accidents, obesity, and ethnic diversity (yes, African Americans don't live as long as caucasians) top the list...

Again, Health Care system does not do much to determine any of these....
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gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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11/3/2011 12:52:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The health care "overhaul" is meant to systematically remove private healthcare providers and ultimately create a federal business. Much like the Post Office, and we all know that that is doing excellent right? . . .

With over 1000 clauses that have yet "to be decided," it grants a huge amount of power to the executive branch. Possibly one of the worst pieces of legislature to cross the threshold of congress.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss