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Facts/Truth Of Israeli-Palestinian Conflict?

jat93
Posts: 1,440
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11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist looking for some facts about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My whole life I've gone to a yeshiva school which predictably indoctrinates its students with hardcore Zionist ideas. They are those "Israel first" Americans who will vote for a candidate solely because of his Israel policies. So for years they've been feeding me this narrative that Israel is always right, Palestinians are always wrong, Israel is moral and humane, Palestinians are immoral and inhumane, Israel wants peace, Palestinians want bloodshed, etc.

It seems that most views are either solely pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian and are blinded by emotions. I'm looking for some facts on the matter because I really don't know much about it. So here are 8 questions I have:

1) What wrong, immoral actions or policies has Israel - government and military - implemented throughout its history (any time period)?
2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?
3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?
4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?
5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?
6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?
7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."
8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/7/2011 5:06:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist looking for some facts about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My whole life I've gone to a yeshiva school which predictably indoctrinates its students with hardcore Zionist ideas. They are those "Israel first" Americans who will vote for a candidate solely because of his Israel policies. So for years they've been feeding me this narrative that Israel is always right, Palestinians are always wrong, Israel is moral and humane, Palestinians are immoral and inhumane, Israel wants peace, Palestinians want bloodshed, etc.

It seems that most views are either solely pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian and are blinded by emotions. I'm looking for some facts on the matter because I really don't know much about it. So here are 8 questions I have:

1) What wrong, immoral actions or policies has Israel - government and military - implemented throughout its history (any time period)?

That is a kind of a slanted question. What one person considers immoral another may consider moral.
Many Americans see Feminism as moral, wile most Arab countries see it as immoral.

I can tell you this the Arabs have always been the aggressors in the conflict, as defined by the The Convention for the Definition of Aggression.

2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?

Yes they are treated fairly. Israel allows for the worship of Islam, and in many cases the state funds Islamic practices.

In fact, in the state of Israel Muslims have more religious freedom than Christians.

3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?

The last time Palestinians where independent was in 1516, because that is when Mamluk Sultanate was annexed by the Ottoman Empire. The land of Palestine was a territory of the Ottoman from 1516 to 1918, when the Ottoman disbanded after the First World War and Ottoman Syria was granted to the League of Nations. The Mandate for Palestine was created under the Rule League of Nations, in 1920 and officially transferred power the British in 1923.

The chartered goal of the Mandate for Palestine was to create a Jewish National Home.

British Mandate: http://www.debate.org...

In 1922 the British had the Mandate Split into a Jewish Mandate and Arab Mandate. The Arab Mandate was known as Trans-Jordan.

Jewish vs Arab Mandate: http://www.debate.org...

In 1946 the British Granted full independence to trans-Jordan.

Remaining Mandate: http://www.debate.org...

In 1947 due to civil unrest among Arabs, the partisan plan was created, in order to divide Palestine yet again.
However the Arab community rejected the proposal, and it was never implemented.

The next day several militant Arab groups attacked Jewish communities, and Buses, marking the start of the Civil War.

In 1948 the British Mandate Expired, and the the State of Israel was established.

Within a few hours the surrounding Arab Nations, known as the Arab League invaded, which started the Arab-Israeli War.

In 1949 an Armistice Agreement was signed, which did Not create official borders, but rather ceasefire lines. With these ceasefire lines, Trans-Jordan controlled the west bank through military occupation, and Egypt controlled the Gaza strip through Military Occupation.

later various other wars was fought, which gave shape to Israel.

Israel's current borders are defined by the 1979, Egypt-Israel peace treaty, and the 1993 Jordan-Israel peace treaty.

The Egyptian Peace Treaty established the fixed southern border.

The Jordanian Peace Treaty established the Eastern border, along the Jordan river. If the Jordan river was to change so would the border.

The Palestinian National Authority was created by the State of Israel, in 1993 through the negotiation with the PLO in the Oslo Accords. It is not independent from Israel, but rather a interdependent organization created in order for better relations, and future negotiation of borders.

PNA Jurisdiction: http://www.debate.org...

4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?

Yes, they have a legal right. Palestine was created to form a National Homeland.
The Ottoman empire gave up Ottoman Syria to the League of Nations, who gave it to the British to gave it to the Israeli Government.
The borders of Israel are established through treaty, with neighboring countries.

5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?

No they was granted the land, fair and square.

Israel was created similar to Trans-Jordan, the only real difference is that the neighbors at the time didn't recognize Israel.

6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?

Not likely... the Palestinian declaration of independence declares all of Israel, Palestinian. That is like if some Christian militant group in the US declared all 50 states, "New Eden".

Look at Pakistan and India. They have a similar story, and Pakistan still wants more land.

7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."

True. Israel created the Palestinian National Authority to represent the Arab community. The Arab community does not have their own state yet. Israel does. Many Palestinians want to see Israel fall. If Israel was to put down their weapons, Palestine would revolt, like under the British Mandate.

In the past Saddam Hussein launched several missiles into Israel in order to spark retaliation. Israel didn't retaliate, because they knew at is what Saddam wanted. Saddam wanted to provoke Israel to attack back, so that the other Arab Nations would help him destroy Israel.

Israel knows when to put down their arms, and when to fight back. If you look at the history of the conflict you can see this as clear as day.

8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?

No. They do not fit the definition provided by the ICSPCA
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
JuiceSqueeze
Posts: 109
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11/7/2011 8:51:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
1) What wrong, immoral actions or policies has Israel - government and military - implemented throughout its history (any time period)?:

what kind of loaded question is that? you're clearly fishing, not asking for facts.

2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?:

israel is a diverse nation and arabs make up a strong minority of the population. inequalities exist but there treatment is definitely better than blacks/hispanics in the US. it's a different country - israel is not a melting pot like the US. for example, sharia law is legal in israel. muslims/christians have their own courts and laws. polygamy is tolerated in the negav, etc.

3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?:

IN israel? no.

4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?:

i don't understand the question. no mythical being grants the "right" to a state. the zionists defeated the arabs in a series of conflicts, declared their independence, and BECAME a state. it's not about whether it is a right. though considering the history of the jewish people, they deserve a state more than any other religious group.

5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?:

something that is stolen must have prior ownership. the whole middle east is "stolen" land. the arabs invaded arabia and later from india, conquered the byzantines, and wiped out the jews, christians, and pegans. for example, what is now Egypt used to be a majority christian state less than 800 years ago.

as far as modern israel is concerned, 80% of the land is state owned, most of it purchased prior to 1948. palestinian claims did not begin until 1980s, the WB/Israel was also considered part of historic arabia. both jordan/syria considered israel/palestine to be rightfully theres. syria to this day says jordan/israel is part of historic, greater syria. lebanon too.

6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?:

this is a unilateral concession and has been made numerous times. the oslo accords mandate a negotiated settlement, but the palestinians shat on those agreements ten years ago. israel doesn't have any land to give, israel can move its military out of the WB whenever it wants.

7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel.":

truth.

8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?:

no. apartheid is a race based form of government. a minority ruled over a majority. israel's government is not "racist" - the country is made up of jews from 100+ different countries. i imagine the term "racist" is easy to understand for american jews since 99% are of white european descent, but most of israel's population are jews from muslim states and completely indistinguishable from palestinian arabs.

however, virtually every islamic and arab state could be classified as an apartheid, especially lebanon, jordan, and egypt. not so sure on turkey, their policies towards the kurds is complicated.

honestly - black africans flee africa to israel. did blacks flee to south africa for a better life?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/7/2011 9:42:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist

Are you atheist or Jewish, because your profile lists religion as Jewish ?

If you are a atheist, than you are not Jewish.
If your an ethnic Jew like me, than you are white.

They should broaden terms, or not ask them.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
JuiceSqueeze
Posts: 109
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11/8/2011 12:01:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/7/2011 9:42:49 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist

Are you atheist or Jewish, because your profile lists religion as Jewish ?

If you are a atheist, than you are not Jewish.
If your an ethnic Jew like me, than you are white.

They should broaden terms, or not ask them.

you can be an atheist and also be jewish. most jews are secular.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/8/2011 1:53:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 12:01:43 AM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
At 11/7/2011 9:42:49 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist

Are you atheist or Jewish, because your profile lists religion as Jewish ?

If you are a atheist, than you are not Jewish.
If your an ethnic Jew like me, than you are white.

They should broaden terms, or not ask them.

you can be an atheist and also be jewish. most jews are secular.

You can be athiest and a ethnic Jew, but you can't be atheist and a religious Jew.
He put Jewish as religion not race.

That's why I asked.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/8/2011 6:21:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist looking for some facts about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My whole life I've gone to a yeshiva school which predictably indoctrinates its students with hardcore Zionist ideas. They are those "Israel first" Americans who will vote for a candidate solely because of his Israel policies. So for years they've been feeding me this narrative that Israel is always right, Palestinians are always wrong, Israel is moral and humane, Palestinians are immoral and inhumane, Israel wants peace, Palestinians want bloodshed, etc.

It seems that most views are either solely pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian and are blinded by emotions. I'm looking for some facts on the matter because I really don't know much about it. So here are 8 questions I have:

1) What wrong, immoral actions or policies has Israel - government and military - implemented throughout its history (any time period)?

The very act of the founding of Israel. Of the land that comprised the state of Israel only 6% was owned by Jews. During the first war there were violent acts of ethnic cleansing, the refugees created in 1948 were not allowed back...

The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.

2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?

The Palestinians no, they are under permanent occupation. The Isreali Arabs are treated well as far as I know.

3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?

No, Palestinians have a right to a state though. Not in Israel, you are talking about land that Israel has no right to. The reasons are enshrined in both the charter of the league of nations and the united nations. Nations that can govern themselves have an automatic right to self-determination.

4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?

However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.

5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?

There are rules about that now!

6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?

Not sure.

7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."

I am doubtful on the first I am more certain of the latter.

8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?

Jewish only roads?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,325
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11/8/2011 7:15:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What's sad is how the other Arab nations use Palestine as a bastard step-child.
None of them would take them in, but would gladly supply arms to watch them spill blood taking out Isreal.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/8/2011 1:09:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 6:21:54 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist looking for some facts about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My whole life I've gone to a yeshiva school which predictably indoctrinates its students with hardcore Zionist ideas. They are those "Israel first" Americans who will vote for a candidate solely because of his Israel policies. So for years they've been feeding me this narrative that Israel is always right, Palestinians are always wrong, Israel is moral and humane, Palestinians are immoral and inhumane, Israel wants peace, Palestinians want bloodshed, etc.

It seems that most views are either solely pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian and are blinded by emotions. I'm looking for some facts on the matter because I really don't know much about it. So here are 8 questions I have:

1) What wrong, immoral actions or policies has Israel - government and military - implemented throughout its history (any time period)?

The very act of the founding of Israel. Of the land that comprised the state of Israel only 6% was owned by Jews. During the first war there were violent acts of ethnic cleansing, the refugees created in 1948 were not allowed back...

BS

Way to pervert history

The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.

Well maybe the Arab league shouldn't have invaded.
2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?

The Palestinians no, they are under permanent occupation. The Isreali Arabs are treated well as far as I know.

Lol pure ignorance.

3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?

No, Palestinians have a right to a state though. Not in Israel, you are talking about land that Israel has no right to. The reasons are enshrined in both the charter of the league of nations and the united nations. Nations that can govern themselves have an automatic right to self-determination.

Isreal's borders are set, it is up to the PNA to compromise borders with Israel. Palestine has no borders, they only have a jurisdiction.

4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?

However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.


The current borders are recognized. Nearly all of what you said is sheer ignorance.

5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?

There are rules about that now!


Good thing Israel didn't do that.

6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?

Not sure.

Due to ignorance of the subject.

7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."

I am doubtful on the first I am more certain of the latter.

Personal opinion
8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?

Jewish only roads?

Misinformation.... the supreme court of Israel ordered the military to allow Palestinians on those roads.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/8/2011 1:32:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 1:09:15 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 6:21:54 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/7/2011 3:56:21 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm a Jewish libertarian atheist looking for some facts about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My whole life I've gone to a yeshiva school which predictably indoctrinates its students with hardcore Zionist ideas. They are those "Israel first" Americans who will vote for a candidate solely because of his Israel policies. So for years they've been feeding me this narrative that Israel is always right, Palestinians are always wrong, Israel is moral and humane, Palestinians are immoral and inhumane, Israel wants peace, Palestinians want bloodshed, etc.

It seems that most views are either solely pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian and are blinded by emotions. I'm looking for some facts on the matter because I really don't know much about it. So here are 8 questions I have:

1) What wrong, immoral actions or policies has Israel - government and military - implemented throughout its history (any time period)?

The very act of the founding of Israel. Of the land that comprised the state of Israel only 6% was owned by Jews. During the first war there were violent acts of ethnic cleansing, the refugees created in 1948 were not allowed back...

BS

Way to pervert history

This is confirmed historical fact, what is your issue?


The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.

Well maybe the Arab league shouldn't have invaded.

It was their land. Or rather should have been their land.

2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?

The Palestinians no, they are under permanent occupation. The Isreali Arabs are treated well as far as I know.

Lol pure ignorance.

The Palestinians are not under occupation and the Israli Arabs are not treated well?


3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?

No, Palestinians have a right to a state though. Not in Israel, you are talking about land that Israel has no right to. The reasons are enshrined in both the charter of the league of nations and the united nations. Nations that can govern themselves have an automatic right to self-determination.

Isreal's borders are set, it is up to the PNA to compromise borders with Israel. Palestine has no borders, they only have a jurisdiction.

Yes and Israel is occupying land beyond her set borders.


4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?

However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.


The current borders are recognized. Nearly all of what you said is sheer ignorance.

So according to you Israel does not have a right to exist?


5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?

There are rules about that now!


Good thing Israel didn't do that.

?


6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?

Not sure.

Due to ignorance of the subject.

I have far more knowledge on this subject than you.


7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."

I am doubtful on the first I am more certain of the latter.

Personal opinion

The quote is mere personal opinion.

8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?

Jewish only roads?

Misinformation.... the supreme court of Israel ordered the military to allow Palestinians on those roads.

Palestinians denied medical treatment in Israeli hospitals? Seperate treatment under the law, use of human shields, collective punishment of civilians for legitimate military responses.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
JuiceSqueeze
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11/8/2011 2:38:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The very act of the founding of Israel. Of the land that comprised the state of Israel only 6% was owned by Jews. During the first war there were violent acts of ethnic cleansing, the refugees created in 1948 were not allowed back...:

Incorrect. The Zionists owned over 80% of the land that later became Israel. Virtually none of it was owned by the Arab's.

All the land was previously Ottoman owned, Arabs who lived on land "owned" it through ottoman law.

Miri lands made up over 60% of Palestine (including Jordan) - it belonged to the government. By 1940 Jews had owned about 1/3 of the mulk land and Arabs 2/3 (this reflects the Palestine partition plan of 1948) but most of the land was owned by the state.

the land became legally israel was the country was declared sovereign and its government recognized as legitimate.

arabs started a civil war in 1947 against mostly holocaust survivors, they made a big mistake attacking british forces, they lost the war. then in 1948 they invaded israel, again they lost.

and they've been losing every war since. overtime they've spent many resources trying to frame the conflict like they were passive actors to an evil zionist conspiracy, in the fact reality is the exact opposite.

the arab's expelled nearly 1,000,000 jews between 1948-1967, including confiscating a land FOUR TIMES THE SIZE of modern day israel.

so, i think any complaints about stole land from arabs is not only hypocritically but arrogant. israel is the only country in the middle east and likely the world that its founders actually set on establishing through diplomatic means.

if israel is illegal because 60 years ago the arabs lost a war they started - then i'll tell you the USA is far, far more illegal, as is Canada, Australia, and naturally the Muslim World.

Yes and Israel is occupying land beyond her set borders.:

Too easy. Israel has no "set" borders. Go ahead, try to find an Israeli or Palestinian or Arab leader that refers to Israel's boundaries as "borders." They are lines, armstice lines, never recognized internationally.

The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.:

the security fence - and at least you call it a fence unlike those who say it is a wall - was established on land controlled by israel under the oslo agreements.

the territory was never sovereign palestine, and had been captured by jordan which conquered the land after their failed invasion of israel.

the fence bisceted palestinian farmland, but it also decreased suicide bombings by 99%. so, it shouldn't be hard to figure out which matters more.

it took israel seven years to build a fence, seven years. the arab states didnt even bother, they just passed laws prohibiting palestinians from becoming citizens and entering the states. but no outrage there.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/8/2011 2:53:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 2:38:57 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
The very act of the founding of Israel. Of the land that comprised the state of Israel only 6% was owned by Jews. During the first war there were violent acts of ethnic cleansing, the refugees created in 1948 were not allowed back...:

Incorrect. The Zionists owned over 80% of the land that later became Israel. Virtually none of it was owned by the Arab's.

All the land was previously Ottoman owned, Arabs who lived on land "owned" it through ottoman law.

Miri lands made up over 60% of Palestine (including Jordan) - it belonged to the government. By 1940 Jews had owned about 1/3 of the mulk land and Arabs 2/3 (this reflects the Palestine partition plan of 1948) but most of the land was owned by the state.


You confusing the concept of ownership and sovereignty.
In any case...
http://www.serendipity.li...

Second paragraph. I am sure there are better websites that record the same thing.

the land became legally israel was the country was declared sovereign and its government recognized as legitimate.

The Arabs have a previously claim, under international law it is automatically arab land.


arabs started a civil war in 1947 against mostly holocaust survivors, they made a big mistake attacking british forces, they lost the war. then in 1948 they invaded israel, again they lost.

It is absolute irrelevant if they were holocaust survivors, every Jew that was born prior to 1945 is labelled a holocaust survivors.


and they've been losing every war since. overtime they've spent many resources trying to frame the conflict like they were passive actors to an evil zionist conspiracy, in the fact reality is the exact opposite.

Irrelevant.

the arab's expelled nearly 1,000,000 jews between 1948-1967, including confiscating a land FOUR TIMES THE SIZE of modern day israel.

1: Source.
2: Relevance?

Thats for the explusions, not for the land theft which is clearly fantasy.


so, i think any complaints about stole land from arabs is not only hypocritically but arrogant. israel is the only country in the middle east and likely the world that its founders actually set on establishing through diplomatic means.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

if israel is illegal because 60 years ago the arabs lost a war they started - then i'll tell you the USA is far, far more illegal, as is Canada, Australia, and naturally the Muslim World.

Strawman.


Yes and Israel is occupying land beyond her set borders.:

Too easy. Israel has no "set" borders. Go ahead, try to find an Israeli or Palestinian or Arab leader that refers to Israel's boundaries as "borders." They are lines, armstice lines, never recognized internationally.

So Israel both has set borders and does not have set borders? I generally find that the zionist position fails in a key way...
1: Lack of knowledge of the facts.
2: Lack of regard for Arabs as humans.
3: Lack of knowledge of the factsl.


The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.:

the security fence - and at least you call it a fence unlike those who say it is a wall - was established on land controlled by israel under the oslo agreements.

Sorry, the Security Wall. Which bisected Palestinian farmland which prior to that was IN USE.

the territory was never sovereign palestine, and had been captured by jordan which conquered the land after their failed invasion of israel.

Irrelevant.


the fence bisceted palestinian farmland, but it also decreased suicide bombings by 99%. so, it shouldn't be hard to figure out which matters more.

Irrelevant. It could have prevented suicide bombings by 99% by being built on Israli soil. By depriving Palestinians of their livelihoods it has probably caused more suffering than it has prevented... but hey so long as it falls on the Palestinians why should you care.

it took israel seven years to build a fence, seven years. the arab states didnt even bother, they just passed laws prohibiting palestinians from becoming citizens and entering the states. but no outrage there.

That has no relevance to the points being raised.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DanT
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11/8/2011 3:10:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 1:32:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 1:09:15 PM, DanT wrote:
The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.

Well maybe the Arab league shouldn't have invaded.

It was their land. Or rather should have been their land.

2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?

The Palestinians no, they are under permanent occupation. The Isreali Arabs are treated well as far as I know.

Lol pure ignorance.

The Palestinians are not under occupation and the Israli Arabs are not treated well?


Palestine can't be under occupation because it never existed. The Israeli Arabs are treated better than Israeli Christians.


3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?

No, Palestinians have a right to a state though. Not in Israel, you are talking about land that Israel has no right to. The reasons are enshrined in both the charter of the league of nations and the united nations. Nations that can govern themselves have an automatic right to self-determination.

Isreal's borders are set, it is up to the PNA to compromise borders with Israel. Palestine has no borders, they only have a jurisdiction.

Yes and Israel is occupying land beyond her set borders.
BS


4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?

However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.


The current borders are recognized. Nearly all of what you said is sheer ignorance.

So according to you Israel does not have a right to exist?

How did you get that from what I said?


5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?

There are rules about that now!


Good thing Israel didn't do that.

?

Israel didn't break any international law. The left keeps shouting that, but never provides any proof, and almost never mentions which law they are referring to.

Tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it; that is the typical strategy of the left.


6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?

Not sure.

Due to ignorance of the subject.

I have far more knowledge on this subject than you.

doubt it


7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."

I am doubtful on the first I am more certain of the latter.

Personal opinion

The quote is mere personal opinion.

8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?

Jewish only roads?

Misinformation.... the supreme court of Israel ordered the military to allow Palestinians on those roads.

Palestinians denied medical treatment in Israeli hospitals? Seperate treatment under the law, use of human shields, collective punishment of civilians for legitimate military responses.

Stop reading propaganda and do some legitimate research. Don't look for topics which reinforce your preexisting beliefs, otherwise you will never educate yourself, because you will only be reading propaganda, taken out of context, and grossly exaggerated.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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11/8/2011 3:18:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 2:53:03 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:38:57 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
so, i think any complaints about stole land from arabs is not only hypocritically but arrogant. israel is the only country in the middle east and likely the world that its founders actually set on establishing through diplomatic means.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

WTF

The State of Israel was established by the British Government, and recognized by the UN on May 14th, 1948
The British Mandate expired at midnight on May 15th, 1948, which is when power was transferred to Israel fro the British.
Within hours the Arab League invaded.

The current borders of Israel are established by treaties with Jordan and Egypt.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
reasonable75
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11/8/2011 3:21:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's as a whole an unbelievably stupid conflict.
"There's a false assumption about science operating here. Science is not in principle committed to the idea that there's no after-life, or that the mind is identical to the brain, or that materialism is true. Science is completely open to whatever in fact is true." - Sam Harris

jimtimmy wrote:
"Look at me look at me look at me! I am a scary racist... trololololol. Oh noes somene is holding me to account for my sh1t."

Cerebral_Narcissist: "Cool story bro."
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/8/2011 3:24:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 3:10:58 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 1:32:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 1:09:15 PM, DanT wrote:
The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.

Well maybe the Arab league shouldn't have invaded.

It was their land. Or rather should have been their land.

2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?

The Palestinians no, they are under permanent occupation. The Isreali Arabs are treated well as far as I know.

Lol pure ignorance.

The Palestinians are not under occupation and the Israli Arabs are not treated well?


Palestine can't be under occupation because it never existed. The Israeli Arabs are treated better than Israeli Christians.

The territories claimed by Palestine are currently under occupation by Israel. They are not part of Israel or a recognised Arab state. No one is disputing this. The internal treatment of Israeli Arabs (sic) are compared to Christians is irrelevant.



3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?

No, Palestinians have a right to a state though. Not in Israel, you are talking about land that Israel has no right to. The reasons are enshrined in both the charter of the league of nations and the united nations. Nations that can govern themselves have an automatic right to self-determination.

Isreal's borders are set, it is up to the PNA to compromise borders with Israel. Palestine has no borders, they only have a jurisdiction.

Yes and Israel is occupying land beyond her set borders.
BS


4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?

However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.


The current borders are recognized. Nearly all of what you said is sheer ignorance.

So according to you Israel does not have a right to exist?

How did you get that from what I said?

You condemned my statement, which presumably means you have an alternate opinion?



5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?

There are rules about that now!


Good thing Israel didn't do that.

?

Israel didn't break any international law. The left keeps shouting that, but never provides any proof, and almost never mentions which law they are referring to.

Israel has broken numerous laws, what specifically are you trying to say.

PS: I dont really care what 'the left' has to say.


Tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it; that is the typical strategy of the left.

Irrelevant.



6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?

Not sure.

Due to ignorance of the subject.

I have far more knowledge on this subject than you.

doubt it

I've proven it already.



7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."

I am doubtful on the first I am more certain of the latter.

Personal opinion

The quote is mere personal opinion.

8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?

Jewish only roads?

Misinformation.... the supreme court of Israel ordered the military to allow Palestinians on those roads.

Palestinians denied medical treatment in Israeli hospitals? Seperate treatment under the law, use of human shields, collective punishment of civilians for legitimate military responses.

Stop reading propaganda and do some legitimate research. Don't look for topics which reinforce your preexisting beliefs, otherwise you will never educate yourself, because you will only be reading propaganda, taken out of context, and grossly exaggerated.

Haha!

Okay lets take human shields, a policy that the IDF... wait for it... OFFICIALLY ADMITS TO AND ENDORSES...

You are as ignorant as sh1t aren't you?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/8/2011 3:29:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 3:18:11 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:53:03 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:38:57 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
so, i think any complaints about stole land from arabs is not only hypocritically but arrogant. israel is the only country in the middle east and likely the world that its founders actually set on establishing through diplomatic means.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

WTF

The State of Israel was established by the British Government, and recognized by the UN on May 14th, 1948
The British Mandate expired at midnight on May 15th, 1948, which is when power was transferred to Israel fro the British.
Within hours the Arab League invaded.

Britain did not recognise Israel for 8 months after it's founding.
The land was arab land. You can't announce a theft to the world and call it diplomacy. Thats idiotic.


The current borders of Israel are established by treaties with Jordan and Egypt.

And?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
JuiceSqueeze
Posts: 109
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11/8/2011 6:32:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cerebeal you are embarassing yourself.

This is a hate site:

http://www.serendipity.li...

The Arabs have a previously claim, under international law it is automatically arab land.:

Sigh. You don't get it. The land was owned by the ottomans, not any Arab nation. Virtually all of the land was mulk, or state-owned. When Israel became a state it inherited the land.

It is absolute irrelevant if they were holocaust survivors, every Jew that was born prior to 1945 is labelled a holocaust survivors.:

It's relevant because it is morally humiliating to try and paint Arabs trying to destroy a tiny nation loaded with holocaust survivors as okay. It is just sad and pathetic.

1: Source.
2: Relevance?

Thats for the explusions, not for the land theft which is clearly fantasy.:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"From 1948 until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries;"

"Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued at more than $100 billion, later revising their estimate in 2007 to $300 billion. They also estimated Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel"

So basically, far more Jews than Arabs were expelled in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Jews lost way more land than the Arabs. So, if the Arabs can fight Israel because they lost land in a war they started, then it is only fair that Israel be allowed to fight Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and Jordan for all the Jewish land they stole. Jewish land that they owned before Islam was even a religion. before the Arab identity.

Rightso?

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

yes, diplomacy. XD

So Israel both has set borders and does not have set borders? I generally find that the zionist position fails in a key way...
1: Lack of knowledge of the facts.
2: Lack of regard for Arabs as humans.
3: Lack of knowledge of the factsl.:

Israel doesn't have official borders, so when you say Israel is violating any border agreements - it isn't. It has no official borders, get it? Arabs are treated like humans in Israel. However, the same cannot be said for how Arabs treat each other. Please read a book or something, you clearly have an interest in this subject but no very little about it.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/9/2011 4:17:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 6:32:04 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
Cerebeal you are embarassing yourself.

Yes by having greater knowledge oops.


This is a hate site:

http://www.serendipity.li...


The same fact is repeated on a hundred websites, some of whom even you wont be able to dismiss. Google it.

The Arabs have a previously claim, under international law it is automatically arab land.:

Sigh. You don't get it. The land was owned by the ottomans, not any Arab nation. Virtually all of the land was mulk, or state-owned. When Israel became a state it inherited the land.

You are confusing sovereignty, ownership, and the principle of national self determination.

From whom did Israel 'inherit' the land? Thats nonsense.


It is absolute irrelevant if they were holocaust survivors, every Jew that was born prior to 1945 is labelled a holocaust survivors.:

It's relevant because it is morally humiliating to try and paint Arabs trying to destroy a tiny nation loaded with holocaust survivors as okay. It is just sad and pathetic.

It was their land, they were not responsible for the holocaust.


1: Source.
2: Relevance?

Thats for the explusions, not for the land theft which is clearly fantasy.:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"From 1948 until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries;"

"Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued at more than $100 billion, later revising their estimate in 2007 to $300 billion. They also estimated Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel"

Oh I see, so you made it up then. Thanks.
Left fled or expelled... according to you they were all expelled. The land theft was not land theft but equivalent land theft!


So basically, far more Jews than Arabs were expelled in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Jews lost way more land than the Arabs. So, if the Arabs can fight Israel because they lost land in a war they started, then it is only fair that Israel be allowed to fight Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and Jordan for all the Jewish land they stole. Jewish land that they owned before Islam was even a religion. before the Arab identity.

Rightso?

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

yes, diplomacy. XD

All more diplomatic than the foundation of Israel yes.


So Israel both has set borders and does not have set borders? I generally find that the zionist position fails in a key way...
1: Lack of knowledge of the facts.
2: Lack of regard for Arabs as humans.
3: Lack of knowledge of the factsl.:

Israel doesn't have official borders, so when you say Israel is violating any border agreements - it isn't. It has no official borders, get it? Arabs are treated like humans in Israel. However, the same cannot be said for how Arabs treat each other. Please read a book or something, you clearly have an interest in this subject but no very little about it.

You Zionists are both claiming that Israel does have set borders and does not have set borders, you seem to show absolute ignorance on the subject and have clearly taken the position you have due to racism.

If you have any other arguments you want refuted please let me know.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DanT
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11/9/2011 11:19:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 3:24:30 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 3:10:58 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 1:32:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 1:09:15 PM, DanT wrote:
The security fence was built in part on occupied land, not the internationally recognised territory of Israel. It also bisected palestinian farmland.

Well maybe the Arab league shouldn't have invaded.

It was their land. Or rather should have been their land.

2) Are the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs treated fairly by the Israeli government or are they being oppressed?

The Palestinians no, they are under permanent occupation. The Isreali Arabs are treated well as far as I know.

Lol pure ignorance.

The Palestinians are not under occupation and the Israli Arabs are not treated well?


Palestine can't be under occupation because it never existed. The Israeli Arabs are treated better than Israeli Christians.

The territories claimed by Palestine are currently under occupation by Israel. They are not part of Israel or a recognised Arab state. No one is disputing this. The internal treatment of Israeli Arabs (sic) are compared to Christians is irrelevant.


The Palestinian Declarations of independence claimed all of Israel. So yeah. Doesn't mean they have a right to it. If I claim all of the US, it doesn't mean I'm entitled to jack.



3) Do Palestinians have a right to a state in Israel and if so, on what basis?

No, Palestinians have a right to a state though. Not in Israel, you are talking about land that Israel has no right to. The reasons are enshrined in both the charter of the league of nations and the united nations. Nations that can govern themselves have an automatic right to self-determination.

Isreal's borders are set, it is up to the PNA to compromise borders with Israel. Palestine has no borders, they only have a jurisdiction.

Yes and Israel is occupying land beyond her set borders.
BS


4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?

However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.


The current borders are recognized. Nearly all of what you said is sheer ignorance.

So according to you Israel does not have a right to exist?

How did you get that from what I said?

You condemned my statement, which presumably means you have an alternate opinion?

The current borders are recognized. Israel was legally established.



5) Did Israel "steal" its land from the Palestinians? Did they not "win" it fairly and isn't that historically the way countries are conquered/established?

There are rules about that now!


Good thing Israel didn't do that.

?

Israel didn't break any international law. The left keeps shouting that, but never provides any proof, and almost never mentions which law they are referring to.

Israel has broken numerous laws, what specifically are you trying to say.


You proved me right.

PS: I dont really care what 'the left' has to say.

Than why listen to left wing propaganda?


Tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it; that is the typical strategy of the left.

Irrelevant.

Got to love how people on this site always claim things are irrelevant, without explaining why. I believe that's called assertion.


6) If Israel gives a certain amount land to the Palestinians, will they ever stop asking for more?

Not sure.

Due to ignorance of the subject.

I have far more knowledge on this subject than you.

doubt it

I've proven it already.

Wrong.



7) True or false: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no Israel."

I am doubtful on the first I am more certain of the latter.

Personal opinion

The quote is mere personal opinion.

8) Are the claims of Israeli "apartheid" legitimate and how so?

Jewish only roads?

Misinformation.... the supreme court of Israel ordered the military to allow Palestinians on those roads.

Palestinians denied medical treatment in Israeli hospitals? Seperate treatment under the law, use of human shields, collective punishment of civilians for legitimate military responses.

Stop reading propaganda and do some legitimate research. Don't look for topics which reinforce your preexisting beliefs, otherwise you will never educate yourself, because you will only be reading propaganda, taken out of context, and grossly exaggerated.

Haha!

Okay lets take human shields, a policy that the IDF... wait for it... OFFICIALLY ADMITS TO AND ENDORSES...

You are as ignorant as sh1t aren't you?

You are ignorant, and listen to out of context propaganda..
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/9/2011 11:21:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you want issue a debate challenge, this is more like a school yard argument at the moment.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DanT
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11/9/2011 12:00:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/8/2011 3:29:02 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 3:18:11 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:53:03 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:38:57 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
so, i think any complaints about stole land from arabs is not only hypocritically but arrogant. israel is the only country in the middle east and likely the world that its founders actually set on establishing through diplomatic means.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

WTF

The State of Israel was established by the British Government, and recognized by the UN on May 14th, 1948
The British Mandate expired at midnight on May 15th, 1948, which is when power was transferred to Israel fro the British.
Within hours the Arab League invaded.

Britain did not recognise Israel for 8 months after it's founding.
The land was arab land. You can't announce a theft to the world and call it diplomacy. Thats idiotic.


BS

The British Cabinet made plans to create Israel in March of 1948. They accepted the Israeli independence immediately, just not as a De jure authority. In that they recognized the independence, but not the government.They just didn't recognize Israel's establishment until later, because they wanted to see how successful Israel was, first.

"We can repeat to the Americans that our attitude on recognition will depend on the success of the plan on which we are working, and we could perhaps add that we have" ~ Bernard Burrows, Director of the Eastern Department


The current borders of Israel are established by treaties with Jordan and Egypt.

And?

Thus you are wrong.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/9/2011 12:06:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/9/2011 12:00:14 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 3:29:02 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 3:18:11 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:53:03 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:38:57 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
so, i think any complaints about stole land from arabs is not only hypocritically but arrogant. israel is the only country in the middle east and likely the world that its founders actually set on establishing through diplomatic means.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

WTF

The State of Israel was established by the British Government, and recognized by the UN on May 14th, 1948
The British Mandate expired at midnight on May 15th, 1948, which is when power was transferred to Israel fro the British.
Within hours the Arab League invaded.

Britain did not recognise Israel for 8 months after it's founding.
The land was arab land. You can't announce a theft to the world and call it diplomacy. Thats idiotic.


BS

The British Cabinet made plans to create Israel in March of 1948. They accepted the Israeli independence immediately, just not as a De jure authority. In that they recognized the independence, but not the government.They just didn't recognize Israel's establishment until later, because they wanted to see how successful Israel was, first.

Zionist doublespeak, either I am wrong or I am right, it can't be both.


"We can repeat to the Americans that our attitude on recognition will depend on the success of the plan on which we are working, and we could perhaps add that we have" ~ Bernard Burrows, Director of the Eastern Department


So I am right then?



The current borders of Israel are established by treaties with Jordan and Egypt.

And?

Thus you are wrong.

That issue is irrelevant anyway, it is you guys that can't decide if Israel has demarcated borders or not but are insistent it is a vital facet of your propaganda.

Why have such strong views on a subject you know nothing about?

Issue a debate challenge if you will.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DanT
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11/9/2011 12:22:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/9/2011 12:06:34 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/9/2011 12:00:14 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 3:29:02 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 3:18:11 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:53:03 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/8/2011 2:38:57 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
so, i think any complaints about stole land from arabs is not only hypocritically but arrogant. israel is the only country in the middle east and likely the world that its founders actually set on establishing through diplomatic means.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

WTF

The State of Israel was established by the British Government, and recognized by the UN on May 14th, 1948
The British Mandate expired at midnight on May 15th, 1948, which is when power was transferred to Israel fro the British.
Within hours the Arab League invaded.

Britain did not recognise Israel for 8 months after it's founding.
The land was arab land. You can't announce a theft to the world and call it diplomacy. Thats idiotic.


BS

The British Cabinet made plans to create Israel in March of 1948. They accepted the Israeli independence immediately, just not as a De jure authority. In that they recognized the independence, but not the government.They just didn't recognize Israel's establishment until later, because they wanted to see how successful Israel was, first.

Zionist doublespeak, either I am wrong or I am right, it can't be both.


"We can repeat to the Americans that our attitude on recognition will depend on the success of the plan on which we are working, and we could perhaps add that we have" ~ Bernard Burrows, Director of the Eastern Department


So I am right then?


No, they wanted to see if the Government was successful before approving the Government.
But they already approved the Independence of Israel, and took part in making plans for Israel's establishment.



The current borders of Israel are established by treaties with Jordan and Egypt.

And?

Thus you are wrong.

That issue is irrelevant anyway, it is you guys that can't decide if Israel has demarcated borders or not but are insistent it is a vital facet of your propaganda.

Why have such strong views on a subject you know nothing about?

I was going to ask you the same thing.

Issue a debate challenge if you will.

Sure.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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11/9/2011 1:20:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Declined the debate challenge. All talk no game.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/9/2011 1:21:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/9/2011 1:20:03 PM, DanT wrote:
Declined the debate challenge I issued that had nothing to with his stated position
or the topic of this argument. All talk no game.

Uh-huh.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
JuiceSqueeze
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11/9/2011 1:32:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cerebel repeating yourself doesn't change anything.

>You are confusing sovereignty, ownership, and the principle of national self determination.

From whom did Israel 'inherit' the land? Thats nonsense.>

I just explained quite simply, Israel inherited the land after the British forfeited their rights over the territory. When they became a state most of the land (mulk) became part of Israel. Just because Jews owned only 1/3 of the land does not mean Arabs owned 2/3. Same thing in Jordan, Jordan inherited the land after the British left.

It was their land, they were not responsible for the holocaust:

No, it wasn't. And yes, many Arabs were complicit in the holocaust. Say, the Mufti of Jerusalem, the spiritual leader of the Palestinians and uncle of Yasser Arafat. Egypt and Syria became sanctuaries for Nazi war criminals, and Iraq/Syria passed Nazi-era laws when expelling their Jews and taking their property.

Oh I see, so you made it up then. Thanks.
Left fled or expelled... according to you they were all expelled. The land theft was not land theft but equivalent land theft!:

No, I literally quoted the article exactly. Is this a comprehension issue?

All more diplomatic than the foundation of Israel yes.:

Israeli-Palestine civil war: 8,000 killed
Syrian revolution: 9,000 killed
Iraqi revolution: 15,000 killed
Egyptian revolutions: 5,000 killed
Lebanon campaign WWI: 13,000 killed

Yes, more diplomatic.

You Zionists are both claiming that Israel does have set borders and does not have set borders, you seem to show absolute ignorance on the subject and have clearly taken the position you have due to racism. If you have any other arguments you want refuted please let me know.:

Lol, border arguments=racist. Wow, super lazy thinking eh? Find me a peer-reviewed journal that says Israel has official borders. Find me any Israeli or Palestinian leader that refers to Israeli borders.

Israel hasn't negotiated its borders with Palestine or Lebanon. This isn't a claim, it is a fact. Denying it makes you look like a retard.
DanT
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11/9/2011 1:34:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/9/2011 1:21:29 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/9/2011 1:20:03 PM, DanT wrote:
Declined the debate challenge I issued that had nothing to with his stated position
or the topic of this argument. All talk no game.

Uh-huh.

It did to have everything to do with the topic.

Component 1 of the conversation.

4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?
However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.

Component 2 of the conversation.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

The State of Israel was established by the British Government, and recognized by the UN on May 14th, 1948
The British Mandate expired at midnight on May 15th, 1948, which is when power was transferred to Israel fro the British.
Within hours the Arab League invaded.

Britain did not recognise Israel for 8 months after it's founding.
The land was arab land. You can't announce a theft to the world and call it diplomacy. Thats idiotic.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/9/2011 1:44:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/9/2011 1:32:35 PM, JuiceSqueeze wrote:
Cerebel repeating yourself doesn't change anything.

>You are confusing sovereignty, ownership, and the principle of national self determination.

From whom did Israel 'inherit' the land? Thats nonsense.>

I just explained quite simply, Israel inherited the land after the British forfeited their rights over the territory. When they became a state most of the land (mulk) became part of Israel. Just because Jews owned only 1/3 of the land does not mean Arabs owned 2/3. Same thing in Jordan, Jordan inherited the land after the British left.

You will need to supply evidence of a legal agreement.


It was their land, they were not responsible for the holocaust:

No, it wasn't. And yes, many Arabs were complicit in the holocaust. Say, the Mufti of Jerusalem, the spiritual leader of the Palestinians and uncle of Yasser Arafat. Egypt and Syria became sanctuaries for Nazi war criminals, and Iraq/Syria passed Nazi-era laws when expelling their Jews and taking their property.


Irrelevant.

Oh I see, so you made it up then. Thanks.
Left fled or expelled... according to you they were all expelled. The land theft was not land theft but equivalent land theft!:

No, I literally quoted the article exactly. Is this a comprehension issue?


YOU said expelled, your link assigned various causes as to the shift in population.

All more diplomatic than the foundation of Israel yes.:

Israeli-Palestine civil war: 8,000 killed
Syrian revolution: 9,000 killed
Iraqi revolution: 15,000 killed
Egyptian revolutions: 5,000 killed
Lebanon campaign WWI: 13,000 killed

Yes, more diplomatic.


How many have died as a result of the Arab-Israeli wars?


You Zionists are both claiming that Israel does have set borders and does not have set borders, you seem to show absolute ignorance on the subject and have clearly taken the position you have due to racism. If you have any other arguments you want refuted please let me know.:

Lol, border arguments=racist. Wow, super lazy thinking eh?

Strawman.

Find me a peer-reviewed journal that says Israel has official borders. Find me any Israeli or Palestinian leader that refers to Israeli borders.

I wished you would make your mind up...


Israel hasn't negotiated its borders with Palestine or Lebanon. This isn't a claim, it is a fact. Denying it makes you look like a retard.

Where did I deny that?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/9/2011 1:46:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/9/2011 1:34:15 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/9/2011 1:21:29 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/9/2011 1:20:03 PM, DanT wrote:
Declined the debate challenge I issued that had nothing to with his stated position
or the topic of this argument. All talk no game.

Uh-huh.

It did to have everything to do with the topic.

Component 1 of the conversation.

4) Do the Jews have a right to a state in Israel (aka the current state of affairs) and if so, on what basis?
However illegally it was founded there is not a recognisable Jewish nation, so yes they are entitled to a state.


You have taken advantage of a single typo in the context of me arguing that Israel has a right to exist? Why?


Component 2 of the conversation.

Actually most of her neighbours were established by diplomacy, she was established by an aggressive war.

The State of Israel was established by the British Government, and recognized by the UN on May 14th, 1948
The British Mandate expired at midnight on May 15th, 1948, which is when power was transferred to Israel fro the British.
Within hours the Arab League invaded.

Yes... so I am right then.


Britain did not recognise Israel for 8 months after it's founding.
The land was arab land. You can't announce a theft to the world and call it diplomacy. Thats idiotic.

Uh-huh.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.