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lovelife
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11/20/2011 9:00:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When do you think a human becomes a person?

Are any non-human animals capable of being people?

Do you think the personhood is relevant in the treatment of animals, and in the morality of abortion?

For me I would say that when the brain is formed in the human.
And if a non-human animal is capable of human like intelligence and emotion, such as several primates are capable of, and dogs too on a more limited level.

I think my view of what makes a person influences mostly my view on abortion, first trimester is fine, and to a lesser extent how I feel about animal treatment.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/20/2011 9:19:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I hardly consider a 2 month old a person.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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11/20/2011 9:23:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My knowledge here is fairly limited, but I'd give this a look: http://instruct.westvalley.edu...
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lovelife
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11/20/2011 9:31:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.

A zygote has distinct human DNA, it is human, and it is life, but is not a person.

Besides, this was about more than abortion, this was about testing what others think about the gray areas.

Speaking of gray areas...why is it grey in the UK, but gray in the US...? Never made much sense, such a silly thing to feel the need to change the spelling of.
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lovelife
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11/20/2011 9:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:19:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I hardly consider a 2 month old a person.

So what's your stance on 4th trimester abortion? ;p
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/20/2011 9:34:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:31:41 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.

A zygote has distinct human DNA, it is human, and it is life, but is not a person.

So having human DNA makes something human? Scratch the back of your palm, I want to see if you'll get arrested for murdering thousands of humans.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lovelife
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11/20/2011 9:41:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I also think different stages of life gives you different rights, and different expectations.

But on a level people can see....babies tend to have the right to get held, fed, etc whenever they cry.
Children are expected to be fed, clothed, educated, and with a place to sleep, in exchange for "slave labor" in which the ones the child works for my pay the child in addition to the services.
Teenagers get more rights, having sex, dropping out of school, possibly leaving the nest, driving, etc in which they may or may not lose those rights depending on their actions, and still tend to have the safety net society tends to give it's young.
Adults can fking fend for themselves pretty much unless they are disabled, or to a lesser extent if they have children.
Old people have the right to sit and be angry about what all them young people are doing. Often they lose several adult rights due to mental illnesses and such and need their adult children to care for them.

And then before birth you have zygotes that get no rights, fetus that rarely gets any rights, and then it goes to baby which was already discussed.

Is it just brain, or is it personality, emotions, experiences, and the worth one has in others' eyes?
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lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/20/2011 9:43:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:34:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:31:41 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.

A zygote has distinct human DNA, it is human, and it is life, but is not a person.

So having human DNA makes something human? Scratch the back of your palm, I want to see if you'll get arrested for murdering thousands of humans.
Having distinct, unique DNA.
A zygote doesn't have 100% of it's mother's, or father's DNA.
Skin has 100% of it's owners DNA.

So yes, being human and being a person are clearly different.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/20/2011 9:48:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:43:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:34:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:31:41 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.

A zygote has distinct human DNA, it is human, and it is life, but is not a person.

So having human DNA makes something human? Scratch the back of your palm, I want to see if you'll get arrested for murdering thousands of humans.
Having distinct, unique DNA.
A zygote doesn't have 100% of it's mother's, or father's DNA.
Skin has 100% of it's owners DNA.

So yes, being human and being a person are clearly different.

Just because you put 2 different DNA strands together does not mean you have a human. You have an object that cannot think, cannot feel, and is not self-aware.

Tell me how objects have rights?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/20/2011 10:00:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:48:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:43:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:34:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:31:41 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.

A zygote has distinct human DNA, it is human, and it is life, but is not a person.

So having human DNA makes something human? Scratch the back of your palm, I want to see if you'll get arrested for murdering thousands of humans.
Having distinct, unique DNA.
A zygote doesn't have 100% of it's mother's, or father's DNA.
Skin has 100% of it's owners DNA.

So yes, being human and being a person are clearly different.

Just because you put 2 different DNA strands together does not mean you have a human. You have an object that cannot think, cannot feel, and is not self-aware.

Tell me how objects have rights?

Okay I think your just embarrassing yourself at this point. Do me a favor. Look on my page, and tell me what position I have for abortion.
The tell me how I think that a zygote or a fetus has full rights.
Or show one time that I even indicated that abortion is wrong.

I was simply going against what you posted, because it's inaccurate.
Just like I go against people that claim they are pro-life because they are anti-abortion, or pro-choice just because they are for abortion rights.
And people that claim they are pro-family when they mean anti-gay, including anti-gay families.

When people make inaccurate claims it needs to be fixed, whether I agree with the overall stance or not.

=====
Hitler was bad because he was blond.
That would need fixed for two main reasons
1) because he wasn't blond
2) his hair color has nothing to do with him being bad.

I still think Hitler was bad, I just think the reasons are completely different.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/20/2011 10:52:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:23:42 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
My knowledge here is fairly limited, but I'd give this a look: http://instruct.westvalley.edu...

I just got done reading this now. It was actually pretty informative and persuasive. I may actually end up changing my opinion on late term abortion, but I will need some time to digest it and do some further thinking of my own.
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JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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11/21/2011 5:07:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it's pretty clear that just having a brain is not the only prerequisite for personhood...

Suppose we have a person and we can erase their brain, but their functionality will remain - i.e. they breathe, their heart beats, etc. - but they have no memory, no knowledge of who they are, cannot talk, cannot think, etc... It would seem pretty silly to say those people are persons.

Same case with the brain dead. The brain works as an organ, but there's nothing there. The house has power but nobody's home.

Theoretically, the brain would need to have a certain number of neurological connections to form a basis to hold the personality. Doubtless a 'young' fetus does not have this capacity. It's possible (maybe even probable) that this threshold occurs in later-term fetuses.

Clearly, though, a zygote is not a person. Nor are the brain dead/vegetables. Most fetuses are also not persons, though it's hard to draw a bright-line rule. In the case of animals, I doubt any of them would qualify for lack of a sufficiently complex brain. It's possible that some of the other higher primates would qualify, but that's kind of up in the air as well.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/21/2011 5:17:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:19:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I hardly consider a 2 month old a person.

Would you grant it any rights?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/21/2011 5:26:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:34:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:31:41 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.

A zygote has distinct human DNA, it is human, and it is life, but is not a person.

So having human DNA makes something human? Scratch the back of your palm, I want to see if you'll get arrested for murdering thousands of humans.

And the winner of the most obtuse reply of the month is.... YOU!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/21/2011 5:27:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:48:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:43:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:34:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:31:41 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/20/2011 9:25:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
how do you define human? Certainly not a mass of cells. If that were so, every time you scratch your head, or cut your hair, or accidentally burn your skin, you're guilty of genocide. And every time you donate blood, you're guilty of human trafficking.

The question of "what is human?" is not subjective. I don't care about anyone's opinion on it, nor should you. It has a scientific answer, and that is what the law and everyone else should concern themselves with. A zygote is not human, has not the capacity to think, has not the capacity of consciousness and self-awareness, and has not the capacity to feel.

A zygote has distinct human DNA, it is human, and it is life, but is not a person.

So having human DNA makes something human? Scratch the back of your palm, I want to see if you'll get arrested for murdering thousands of humans.
Having distinct, unique DNA.
A zygote doesn't have 100% of it's mother's, or father's DNA.
Skin has 100% of it's owners DNA.

So yes, being human and being a person are clearly different.

Just because you put 2 different DNA strands together does not mean you have a human. You have an object that cannot think, cannot feel, and is not self-aware.

Tell me how objects have rights?

How are you not understanding what is being said to you?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/21/2011 5:40:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 5:27:25 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

How are you not understanding what is being said to you?

I saw my mistake after she explained, and stopped. Please don't troll me like you do Izbo.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/21/2011 6:32:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 5:40:53 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/21/2011 5:27:25 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

How are you not understanding what is being said to you?

I saw my mistake after she explained, and stopped. Please don't troll me like you do Izbo.

She was painfully clear from the start and you repeated your 'mistake'... if you don't want to be treated like Izbo don't post like him.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Thaddeus
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11/21/2011 8:26:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 3:51:58 AM, innomen wrote:
I'd say about for women and 32 for men.

I'd say in America (on average) it is about 76 for men and 81 years old for women.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/21/2011 8:52:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Seriously though, i think you go down a dangerous path by changing the criteria within what we value from human life to "personhood".

I'm pretty certain that racists would take this and fly with it, and make some case that a Jew is not a person, but a different sort of biological being, or a negro is not a person as we understand a fully developed entity, but something else.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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11/21/2011 9:38:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 9:23:42 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
My knowledge here is fairly limited, but I'd give this a look: http://instruct.westvalley.edu...

Everybody stop telling us your opinions and read this. I'm very glad someone posted something by Warren on the topic.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/21/2011 10:08:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I wasn't trying to say that a brain is the only requirement. But if we make it a functioning high capacity brain with individuality and higher thinking skills, does that mean its not murder if their republican christians? ;)
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/21/2011 11:06:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
murder is killing an independent, self-actualized being
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/21/2011 11:14:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Here are the ways we, as a society, recognize that a fetus is not a person, until they become independent:

1) A fetus does not have a Social Security number.

2) A fetus is not a citizen of the U.S.

3) A miscarried fetus is not given a funeral.

4) A fetus does not have a name.

5) We don't call fetuses who kill their twin "murderers." http://en.wikipedia.org...

fyi, shark fetuses literally eat each other http://centrodepinoy.blogspot.com...
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
lovelife
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11/21/2011 11:37:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 8:52:41 AM, innomen wrote:
Seriously though, i think you go down a dangerous path by changing the criteria within what we value from human life to "personhood".

I'm pretty certain that racists would take this and fly with it, and make some case that a Jew is not a person, but a different sort of biological being, or a negro is not a person as we understand a fully developed entity, but something else.

I doubt that will at all work, because Jews, Blacks, Women, etc are all capable of independent thought, reasoning, and survival.
You could have people that say they are lesser people (a certain someone comes to mind....) but I don't think they could even stretch it far enough to say they aren't people.

If anything to be scared of, I'd be scared of PETA changing things up where anything more complex than a carrot would be considered a person.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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11/21/2011 11:57:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 11:37:25 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/21/2011 8:52:41 AM, innomen wrote:
Seriously though, i think you go down a dangerous path by changing the criteria within what we value from human life to "personhood".

I'm pretty certain that racists would take this and fly with it, and make some case that a Jew is not a person, but a different sort of biological being, or a negro is not a person as we understand a fully developed entity, but something else.

I doubt that will at all gorffleorffle, because Jews, Blacks, Women, etc aren't all capable of independent thought, reasoning, and survival.
People say women are lesser people but I don't think they could even stretch it far enough to say they aren't occasionally sexy.

If anything to be scared of, I'd be scared of hypnosis and PETA changing things up where anything more complex than a waffle-hamster would be considered a person.

Quoted for truth
lovelife
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11/21/2011 12:42:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 11:57:42 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 11/21/2011 11:37:25 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/21/2011 8:52:41 AM, innomen wrote:
Seriously though, i think you go down a dangerous path by changing the criteria within what we value from human life to "personhood".

I'm pretty certain that racists would take this and fly with it, and make some case that a Jew is not a person, but a different sort of biological being, or a negro is not a person as we understand a fully developed entity, but something else.

I doubt that will at all gorffleorffle, because Jews, Blacks, Women, etc aren't all capable of independent thought, reasoning, and survival.
People say women are lesser people but I don't think they could even stretch it far enough to say they aren't occasionally sexy.

If anything to be scared of, I'd be scared of hypnosis and PETA changing things up where anything more complex than a waffle-hamster would be considered a person.

Quoted for truth

Was that supposed to make sense, or even be funny?
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Thaddeus
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11/21/2011 1:34:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 12:42:13 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/21/2011 11:57:42 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 11/21/2011 11:37:25 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 11/21/2011 8:52:41 AM, innomen wrote:
Seriously though, i think you go down a dangerous path by changing the criteria within what we value from human life to "personhood".

I'm pretty certain that racists would take this and fly with it, and make some case that a Jew is not a person, but a different sort of biological being, or a negro is not a person as we understand a fully developed entity, but something else.

I doubt that will at all gorffleorffle, because Jews, Blacks, Women, etc aren't all capable of independent thought, reasoning, and survival.
People say women are lesser people but I don't think they could even stretch it far enough to say they aren't occasionally sexy.

If anything to be scared of, I'd be scared of hypnosis and PETA changing things up where anything more complex than a waffle-hamster would be considered a person.

Quoted for truth

Was that supposed to make sense, or even be funny?

Neither. I'm drunk.