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The Social Drawbacks of Abortion

ianspigler
Posts: 24
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11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion
thisisnottom
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/29/2011 1:57:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

And twice as many criminals.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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11/29/2011 1:58:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 1:57:54 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

And twice as many criminals.

This.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/29/2011 2:06:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 1:57:54 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

And twice as many criminals.

One Einstein is worth risking at least a hundred criminals if not more?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/29/2011 2:10:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 2:06:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:57:54 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

And twice as many criminals.

One Einstein is worth risking at least a hundred criminals if not more?

Depends. Is one Hitler worth a hundred labratory assistants?
Willoweed
Posts: 150
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11/29/2011 2:12:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion
1) When you have more kids it means you have less land per person, meaning less minerals less crops per person. When you have more kids you have more pollution as well.
2) If you wan a bigger labor force to support the elderly why instead of pumping out more children we just lett people already in existence enter our country and work?
3) Studies show that unwanted children and children from mothers who wanted abortions but couldn't get one are much more likely to commit crimes; in fact large part of the reduction in crime rates starting int he 90's is attributed to abortion becoming legal.
So are you suggesting that science discoveries not in America will never reach America? Science research and discoveries spread throughout the world.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/29/2011 2:16:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 2:12:49 PM, Willoweed wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion
1) When you have more kids it means you have less land per person, meaning less minerals less crops per person. When you have more kids you have more pollution as well.
2) If you wan a bigger labor force to support the elderly why instead of pumping out more children we just lett people already in existence enter our country and work?
3) Studies show that unwanted children and children from mothers who wanted abortions but couldn't get one are much more likely to commit crimes; in fact large part of the reduction in crime rates starting int he 90's is attributed to abortion becoming legal.

Ding ding ding. I was aware of this, but I didn't have my source handy.

So are you suggesting that science discoveries not in America will never reach America? Science research and discoveries spread throughout the world.
Willoweed
Posts: 150
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11/29/2011 2:36:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 2:16:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/29/2011 2:12:49 PM, Willoweed wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion
1) When you have more kids it means you have less land per person, meaning less minerals less crops per person. When you have more kids you have more pollution as well.
2) If you wan a bigger labor force to support the elderly why instead of pumping out more children we just lett people already in existence enter our country and work?
3) Studies show that unwanted children and children from mothers who wanted abortions but couldn't get one are much more likely to commit crimes; in fact large part of the reduction in crime rates starting int he 90's is attributed to abortion becoming legal.

Ding ding ding. I was aware of this, but I didn't have my source handy.

http://freakonomicsbook.com...
http://www.population-security.org...

there you go
Chthonian
Posts: 247
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11/29/2011 2:39:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

This is the same reasoning that the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu used when he outlawed abortion and contraception in order to build up a communist workforce. The one unforeseen problem was that unwanted babies were dumped into orphanages at alarming rates. These children didn't get the nurturing attention they needed and many have been diagnosed with learning disabilities. ( http://www.center4familydevelop.com... )
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/29/2011 2:44:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 2:36:09 PM, Willoweed wrote:
At 11/29/2011 2:16:29 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/29/2011 2:12:49 PM, Willoweed wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion
1) When you have more kids it means you have less land per person, meaning less minerals less crops per person. When you have more kids you have more pollution as well.
2) If you wan a bigger labor force to support the elderly why instead of pumping out more children we just lett people already in existence enter our country and work?
3) Studies show that unwanted children and children from mothers who wanted abortions but couldn't get one are much more likely to commit crimes; in fact large part of the reduction in crime rates starting int he 90's is attributed to abortion becoming legal.

Ding ding ding. I was aware of this, but I didn't have my source handy.

http://freakonomicsbook.com...

Ah, yes. I couldn't remember of it was Freakonomics or something by Malcolm Gladwell. Thank you.

http://www.population-security.org...

there you go
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/29/2011 3:11:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Here's a better question:

Why are we supporting a system (social security and medicare) that's foundation lies upon an ever expanding workforce, even though infinite population growth is impossible?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Willoweed
Posts: 150
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11/29/2011 3:50:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 3:11:46 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Here's a better question:

Why are we supporting a system (social security and medicare) that's foundation lies upon an ever expanding workforce, even though infinite population growth is impossible?

On semantic correction I'd like to make; SS doesn't require an ever growing workforce it requires a large enough output from the labor force, that output can be from more people or higher productivity.
How else would you suggest supporting retirement and health care for the elderly?
Willoweed
Posts: 150
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11/29/2011 3:54:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 2:39:39 PM, Chthonian wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

This is the same reasoning that the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu used when he outlawed abortion and contraception in order to build up a communist workforce. The one unforeseen problem was that unwanted babies were dumped into orphanages at alarming rates. These children didn't get the nurturing attention they needed and many have been diagnosed with learning disabilities. ( http://www.center4familydevelop.com... )

The only "good" thing to come out of the situation you mention above is that it allowed researchers a perfect opportunity to study how being poor/ not having a nurturing early childhood (0-2years of age) effects you later on in life. They found that being poor in early childhood changes genetic factors for live which results on people who are forever stuck with disabilities and low mental abilities.
This is why many people advocate more welfare for children, in the form of nutrition, pre-school, and other developmental aids to bad Republicans vote against it and defund it despite it saving moenyin the long run
days3331
Posts: 9
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11/29/2011 8:13:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
For every one person that decides not to contribute to the future work force by having a baby, surely, there is one crazy person out there who is popping enough babies out to compensate for them.

For example, the Duggars have 19 kids. Just their family alone could account for 8.5 couples' lack of children.

There's also octomom, Jon and Kate Plus Eight and pretty much everyone on TLC.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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11/29/2011 10:05:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

Yours is an interesting thread, Ian. However, you seem to be overlooking the fact that abortion wasn't always legal in the United States and in fact after voluntary abortion became legal... the birth rates climbed. And the climbing birth rates that followed Roe v. Wade oddly enough were increasingly driven by a massive increase in the numbers of teen pregnancies and unwed mothers.

Many of the things that legalized abortion was supposed to solve, we actually exacerbated by its legality... because MEN who were (prior to Roe) expected to marry a girl he got pregnant can now just walk away and claim "I told the Bitch to abort the damn thing."
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/30/2011 10:32:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 10:05:03 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

Yours is an interesting thread, Ian. However, you seem to be overlooking the fact that abortion wasn't always legal in the United States and in fact after voluntary abortion became legal... the birth rates climbed. And the climbing birth rates that followed Roe v. Wade oddly enough were increasingly driven by a massive increase in the numbers of teen pregnancies and unwed mothers.

Many of the things that legalized abortion was supposed to solve, we actually exacerbated by its legality... because MEN who were (prior to Roe) expected to marry a girl he got pregnant can now just walk away and claim "I told the Bitch to abort the damn thing."

Well, this argument is on par with making women wear "burkhas" because men cannot help but look at women with evil intent.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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11/30/2011 11:48:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 10:32:38 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/29/2011 10:05:03 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

Yours is an interesting thread, Ian. However, you seem to be overlooking the fact that abortion wasn't always legal in the United States and in fact after voluntary abortion became legal... the birth rates climbed. And the climbing birth rates that followed Roe v. Wade oddly enough were increasingly driven by a massive increase in the numbers of teen pregnancies and unwed mothers.

Many of the things that legalized abortion was supposed to solve, we actually exacerbated by its legality... because MEN who were (prior to Roe) expected to marry a girl he got pregnant can now just walk away and claim "I told the Bitch to abort the damn thing."

Well, this argument is on par with making women wear "burkhas" because men cannot help but look at women with evil intent.

Errr ummmm.

I didn't present an argument.

I made an observation.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/30/2011 1:16:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 11:48:10 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/30/2011 10:32:38 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/29/2011 10:05:03 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

Yours is an interesting thread, Ian. However, you seem to be overlooking the fact that abortion wasn't always legal in the United States and in fact after voluntary abortion became legal... the birth rates climbed. And the climbing birth rates that followed Roe v. Wade oddly enough were increasingly driven by a massive increase in the numbers of teen pregnancies and unwed mothers.

Many of the things that legalized abortion was supposed to solve, we actually exacerbated by its legality... because MEN who were (prior to Roe) expected to marry a girl he got pregnant can now just walk away and claim "I told the Bitch to abort the damn thing."

Well, this argument is on par with making women wear "burkhas" because men cannot help but look at women with evil intent.

Errr ummmm.

I didn't present an argument.

I made an observation.

Well, the observation that you made is on par with the observation that men cannot help but look at women with evil intent, and that is the reason why women are made to cover themselves from head to toe.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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11/30/2011 7:07:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 1:16:52 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/30/2011 11:48:10 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/30/2011 10:32:38 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/29/2011 10:05:03 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

Yours is an interesting thread, Ian. However, you seem to be overlooking the fact that abortion wasn't always legal in the United States and in fact after voluntary abortion became legal... the birth rates climbed. And the climbing birth rates that followed Roe v. Wade oddly enough were increasingly driven by a massive increase in the numbers of teen pregnancies and unwed mothers.

Many of the things that legalized abortion was supposed to solve, we actually exacerbated by its legality... because MEN who were (prior to Roe) expected to marry a girl he got pregnant can now just walk away and claim "I told the Bitch to abort the damn thing."

Well, this argument is on par with making women wear "burkhas" because men cannot help but look at women with evil intent.

Errr ummmm.

I didn't present an argument.

I made an observation.

Well, the observation that you made is on par with the observation that men cannot help but look at women with evil intent, and that is the reason why women are made to cover themselves from head to toe.

Please explain.

If I make the observation that 'prior to the availability of legalized voluntary abortions, men were held to a higher standard of responsibility' I am somehow obligated to defend the claim that YOU are alleging? That; "Men cannot help but look at women with evil intent... ?"

I hope are not trying to imply that I believe women should be "covered from head to toe" simply because I noticed that prior to Roe men were held more responsible for the children they helped to create.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/30/2011 7:23:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 7:07:42 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/30/2011 1:16:52 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/30/2011 11:48:10 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/30/2011 10:32:38 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/29/2011 10:05:03 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

Yours is an interesting thread, Ian. However, you seem to be overlooking the fact that abortion wasn't always legal in the United States and in fact after voluntary abortion became legal... the birth rates climbed. And the climbing birth rates that followed Roe v. Wade oddly enough were increasingly driven by a massive increase in the numbers of teen pregnancies and unwed mothers.

Many of the things that legalized abortion was supposed to solve, we actually exacerbated by its legality... because MEN who were (prior to Roe) expected to marry a girl he got pregnant can now just walk away and claim "I told the Bitch to abort the damn thing."

Well, this argument is on par with making women wear "burkhas" because men cannot help but look at women with evil intent.

Errr ummmm.

I didn't present an argument.

I made an observation.

Well, the observation that you made is on par with the observation that men cannot help but look at women with evil intent, and that is the reason why women are made to cover themselves from head to toe.

Please explain.

If I make the observation that 'prior to the availability of legalized voluntary abortions, men were held to a higher standard of responsibility' I am somehow obligated to defend the claim that YOU are alleging? That; "Men cannot help but look at women with evil intent... ?"

I hope are not trying to imply that I believe women should be "covered from head to toe" simply because I noticed that prior to Roe men were held more responsible for the children they helped to create.

I'm not asking you to defend any claim.

I was just making the observation that your observation about "legalized abortions causing men to behave irresponsibly" is quite similar to the observation that "women cannot help but make men look at them with evil intent."

The similarity here being the irresponsibility of men being identified as the problem and as a solution, causing women to pay the "penalty".

So, if as you say, you were just making an observation, what is the conclusion that you make from your observation? Or are you not implying anything and just randomly making statements?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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11/30/2011 7:35:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 7:23:36 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/30/2011 7:07:42 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:

I'm not asking you to defend any claim.

I was just making the observation that your observation about "legalized abortions causing men to behave irresponsibly" is quite similar to the observation that "women cannot help but make men look at them with evil intent."

The similarity here being the irresponsibility of men being identified as the problem and as a solution, causing women to pay the "penalty".

So, if as you say, you were just making an observation, what is the conclusion that you make from your observation? Or are you not implying anything and just randomly making statements?

Ummmm.

Are you seriously suggesting that banning voluntary elective abortion is tantamount to a "punishment of women" for the evils of MEN?

Unless the woman is raped, it takes two you know?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
seraine
Posts: 734
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11/30/2011 7:39:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/29/2011 1:55:08 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Many people only focus on abortion as being murder but, what they don't realize is abortion has social drawbacks as well. For one, when you are aborting babies you have a smaller work force and that small work force has to support a large retiring workforce (as we see happening now). Also, the fact that when you have a country that supports abortion it has a disadvantage over countries that don't in and of the fact that those countries can produce twice as many scientists and twice as many engineers than countries that support abortion

Are you encouraging people to have lots of sex?
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/30/2011 8:09:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/30/2011 7:35:46 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 11/30/2011 7:23:36 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/30/2011 7:07:42 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:

I'm not asking you to defend any claim.

I was just making the observation that your observation about "legalized abortions causing men to behave irresponsibly" is quite similar to the observation that "women cannot help but make men look at them with evil intent."

The similarity here being the irresponsibility of men being identified as the problem and as a solution, causing women to pay the "penalty".

So, if as you say, you were just making an observation, what is the conclusion that you make from your observation? Or are you not implying anything and just randomly making statements?

Ummmm.

Are you seriously suggesting that banning voluntary elective abortion is tantamount to a "punishment of women" for the evils of MEN?

Unless the woman is raped, it takes two you know?

Well, you were the one who made the observation that legalized abortions facilitated the irresponsibility of men.

There are some scenarios we need to take a look at.

Legalized abortions present:
Some women okay with abortion
Some women not okay with abortion.

In this scenario, the women who are not okay with abortion get a raw deal, as you said, the man can always say "I told her"

Abortions illegal:
In this scenario, the women who don't mind getting an abortion get a raw deal. Men also, have no "escape" route.

In these two scenarios, who do you think is the common factor that is "punished"?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.