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This is only for true Patriots

ClayMeister
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5/16/2009 5:41:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Arrogant Americans, Mr. President?
Peter Heck - Guest Columnist - 4/14/2009 7:50:00 AM
As I was sitting in church waiting for the start of the service, my grandpa came walking towards me pointing his finger. No matter how old I get, and no matter how long he's been out of the U.S. Navy, that's still an intimidating sight. As he approached me, his voice quivered as he said, "We saved that continent twice...how dare my president apologize for this country's arrogance." My grandpa is right. Americans need not apologize to the world for their arrogance; rather, Americans should apologize to their forefathers for the arrogance of their president.

Barack Obama's first foreign trip as President of the United States has confirmed the naiveté so many of us feared during the election cycle. But worse than that, it has also demonstrated that our president suffers from either a complete misunderstanding of our heritage and history, or an utter contempt for it. Neither is excusable.

Garnering cheers from the French of all people, President Obama declared, "In America, there is a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive." Consider that Obama spoke these words just 500 miles from the beaches of Normandy, where the sand is still stained with 65-year-old blood of "arrogant Americans."

Indeed, columnist Mark Whittington observes, "One should remind Mr. Obama and the Europeans how America has 'shown arrogance' by saving Europe from itself innumerable times in the 20th Century. World War I, World War II, the Cold War, and the wars in the Balkans were largely resolved by American blood, treasure, and leadership." But all that appears lost on the president's seemingly insatiable quest to mend fences he imagines have been tarnished by the bullish George W. Bush.

If Obama wishes to continue trampling the presidential tradition of showing class to former office holders and publicly trash Bush for his own personal gain, so be it. But all Americans should make clear that no man – even if he is the president – will tarnish the legacy of those Americans who have gone before us. Ours is not a history of arrogance. It is a history of courage, self-sacrifice, and honor.

When abusive monarchs repressed the masses, Americans resisted and overthrew them. When misguided policies led to the unjust oppression of fellow citizens, Americans rebelled and overturned them. When millions of impoverished and destitute wretches sought a new beginning, Americans threw open the door and welcomed them. When imperial dictators were on the march, Americans surrendered their lives to stop them. When communist thugs threatened world peace, Americans bled to defeat them. When an entire continent was overwhelmed with famine and hunger, Americans gave of themselves to sustain it. When terrorist madmen killed the innocent and subjugated millions, Americans led the fight to topple them.

This is the legacy that generations of Americans have left. If President Obama seeks stronger relations with the world community, perhaps he should begin by reminding them of these very truths, rather than condemning his own countrymen on foreign shores.

This "obsessive need to put down his own country," has caused blogger James Lewis to call President Obama a "stunningly ignorant man" who has evidently never spoken to a concentration camp survivor, a Cuban refugee, a boat person from Vietnam, a Soviet dissident, or a survivor of Mao's purges.

Unfortunately, I can no longer bring myself to give Mr. Obama that benefit of the doubt. Not after looking at the pain in my grandpa's eyes...a man who still carries shrapnel in his body from his service to this country.

As a student and teacher of history, I recognize that America has made mistakes...plenty of them, in fact. But one of the great things about our people has been their courage and humility in admitting and correcting those mistakes. God willing, they will prove that willingness again in four years and correct the mistake that is the presidency of Barack Obama.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 5:47:57 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
You're point is? You should elaborate on what you want to say rather than plagiarise.

Anyway, the fact these "patriots" refer to America as the greatest country in the world is being arrogant.

And the fact America saved Europe twice means nothing. Sure, you dropped the bomb, a good 7 years fu|<ing late.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/16/2009 6:48:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
It is arrogant for a country to claim that they're the best in the world. It is arrogant for a country to think it is the police force of the world. It is just stupid for a country that claims both those things to invade a country, then lie about why it invaded it. Then it is arrogant to act like you were still in the right all along.

Barack Obama is apologising for the disrespectful attitude the last administration showed towards the rest of the world. He isn't saying that the blood of the soldiers spilled on Normandy is the result of arrogance; he is saying the blood of soldiers that British, Polish, Australian and countless other nationalities committed to Bush's grand Inquisition is the result of arrogance.

Your country was so mad at France for not joining in the Coalition of the Willing that you decided to rename French fries "Freedom Fries" for awhile. Bush ran away the first few times former Canadian PM Jean Chretien tried to visit him, just because he was a vocal critic of Iraq. Hell, the US tried to block Canadian companies from joining in on the reconstruction effort in Iraq for the same reason!

Arrogance, arrogance, arrogance.

You dragged yourselves into that pit, and Obama is just trying to get you out. You should be proud that you have a leader that wants to have peaceful co-operation between countries, instead of the manhandling way Bush dealt with it.
LB628
Posts: 176
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5/16/2009 7:57:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
You do understand that when he talks about arrogance, he is talking primarily about the last 8 years, right? Because thats when we were arrogant. It is not our duty, nor even our privilege, to ignore the will and desires, not only of the international community, but of the majority of the people in the United States. But the last President did exactly that. And that is arrogance.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 10:51:56 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 6:48:24 AM, Volkov wrote:
It is arrogant for a country to claim that they're the best in the world.
America definitely has its problems, but it is still one of the best placest in the world to live.
It is arrogant for a country to think it is the police force of the world.
And the EU isn't?
It is just stupid for a country that claims both those things to invade a country, then lie about why it invaded it. Then it is arrogant to act like you were still in the right all along.
Are we talking about the EU, or the U.S., both could fit.
Barack Obama is apologising for the disrespectful attitude the last administration showed towards the rest of the world. He isn't saying that the blood of the soldiers spilled on Normandy is the result of arrogance; he is saying the blood of soldiers that British, Polish, Australian and countless other nationalities committed to Bush's grand Inquisition is the result of arrogance.
Yea, Bush obviously forced them to join in. THEY definitely didn't have the same reasons for invading.
Your country was so mad at France for not joining in the Coalition of the Willing that you decided to rename French fries "Freedom Fries" for awhile. Bush ran away the first few times former Canadian PM Jean Chretien tried to visit him, just because he was a vocal critic of Iraq. Hell, the US tried to block Canadian companies from joining in on the reconstruction effort in Iraq for the same reason!

Arrogance, arrogance, arrogance.

You dragged yourselves into that pit, and Obama is just trying to get you out. You should be proud that you have a leader that wants to have peaceful co-operation between countries, instead of the manhandling way Bush dealt with it.
He's pulling us back into the pit. He's made us look weak, but it's his job, so he can do what he wants. If it works out that's good, if not, I told you so.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
MistahKurtz
Posts: 400
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5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country. Without Canada, D-Day could not have happened. Without Australia, Hitler couldn't have been kept out of the middle east. Without England and France, Hitler wouldn't have been held up so long on the Western border. Without the USSR, Germany wouldn't have needed to fight a two front war. Hell, without British Somaliland, Germany would not have diverted its attention from the European theater.

To give credit to only one country ignores the contributions of every other country. Furthermore, to say one country is indebted to another is blatantly ignorant and basically creates a world order where every country must be subservient to the largest military power. If countries cannot speak out against each other, then organizations like the UN or NATO are utterly useless and everyone would just have to do as the U.S dictates, and we've learned the trouble with that.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 11:09:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The U.S. often forgets the E.U. is militarily, socially and economically superior overall to the United States. Not to forget the U.S. wouldn't exist without Europe.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.
Without Canada, D-Day could not have happened. Without Australia, Hitler couldn't have been kept out of the middle east. Without England and France, Hitler wouldn't have been held up so long on the Western border.
Without the U.S., Europe would've been taken.
Without the USSR, Germany wouldn't have needed to fight a two front war.
USSR were the bad guys in the beginning. They didn't help us because they wanted too, they helped us because Germany was their enemy and they wanted to spread communism.
Hell, without British Somaliland, Germany would not have diverted its attention from the European theater.
Please explain better.
To give credit to only one country ignores the contributions of every other country.
Fair enough, I agree that the other countries did help out. I just think that we helped out the most.
Furthermore, to say one country is indebted to another is blatantly ignorant and basically creates a world order where every country must be subservient to the largest military power.
No country should "owe" another, but they should be there for eachother.
If countries cannot speak out against each other, then organizations like the UN or NATO are utterly useless and everyone would just have to do as the U.S dictates, and we've learned the trouble with that.
Actually, the EU are the ones who try and control everything. The U.S. tries, but we've been losing power for a long time. I don't think anybody should be forced to do anything they don't want too. That's why I have problems with the EU and what the US use to and still tries to be.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?

We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 11:38:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?

We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Yea, like Russia even cared about you guys. They were just as likely to turn on you as Japan once Germany was out of the way.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 11:43:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:38:07 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?

We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Yea, like Russia even cared about you guys. They were just as likely to turn on you as Japan once Germany was out of the way.

Still proves my point. We didn't need you. Especially you're screwed up idea of democracy. You're ideology 60 years ago was smart, set up plans t ore-build a broken country. With Iraq it's just "bomb the skinnies" and set up a house of cards government.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 11:44:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:43:29 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:38:07 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?

We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Yea, like Russia even cared about you guys. They were just as likely to turn on you as Japan once Germany was out of the way.

Still proves my point. We didn't need you. Especially you're screwed up idea of democracy. You're ideology 60 years ago was smart, set up plans t ore-build a broken country. With Iraq it's just "bomb the skinnies" and set up a house of cards government.

You're one to talk over there in the EU area. We're screwed up, but you guys aren't exactly the best either.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 11:50:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:44:48 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:43:29 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:38:07 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?

We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Yea, like Russia even cared about you guys. They were just as likely to turn on you as Japan once Germany was out of the way.

Still proves my point. We didn't need you. Especially you're screwed up idea of democracy. You're ideology 60 years ago was smart, set up plans t ore-build a broken country. With Iraq it's just "bomb the skinnies" and set up a house of cards government.

You're one to talk over there in the EU area. We're screwed up, but you guys aren't exactly the best either.

How so? You have the false belief you don't need justification to invade a country who might be a threat, even without evidence. We know when to pick our fights. Kosovo? Sent peacekeepers and allowed it to properly stabilize. South Ossetia. Stayed low and said little, except to try and get Russia out. Of course, Russia fears the E.U.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
MistahKurtz
Posts: 400
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5/16/2009 12:22:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

No, it couldn't. Neither could the U.S. The point is that it needed all the allied powers, that's why they were allied Seriously, do you people read my posts?

Without the U.S., Europe would've been taken.

EXACTLY. But without every other allied power, Hitler would have taken Europe and created a military power that far surpassed that of America.

USSR were the bad guys in the beginning. They didn't help us because they wanted too, they helped us because Germany was their enemy and they wanted to spread communism.
Yeah, it was either that or because they actually didn't want to be involved at all, but Hitler attacked them. They became important participants because they were fighting to save their slavic brothers who Hitler saw as inferior, such as the Jews. Do you even read history books?

Please explain better.

Groan. Mussolini tried to create an African empire, but African and British resistance proved too strong and began to beat Mussolini, so Hitler had to divert power from the Russian campaign to help save Italy.
Fair enough, I agree that the other countries did help out. I just think that we helped out the most.

How thick are you? I don't mean to be a jerk, but to say things like "We helped out the most" belittles you to being a snotty little 5th grader. This isn't recess, this is the safety and security of the Western world we're talking about. For the U.S to march around unopposed because they 'helped out the most' over 50 years ago is deplorable and most reasonable people in the U.S government recognize this.

No country should "owe" another, but they should be there for eachother

Exactly, that's what I'm arguing. You're trying to convince me of the opposite.

Actually, the EU are the ones who try and control everything. The U.S. tries, but we've been losing power for a long time. I don't think anybody should be forced to do anything they don't want too. That's why I have problems with the EU and what the US use to and still tries to be.

That's blatantly untrue. Back it up.

At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Wrong. Russia, despite having more manpower, had inefficient and outdated equipment. During Operation Barbarossa, Germany absolutely crushed Russia. It was only a few miles from Leningrad that Russia finally began to push back against the Nazis, having already suffered immeasurable losses. Russia's military weakness was illustrated in her failed invasion of Finland.

You're all missing the point in that EVERY ALLIED POWER was needed to defeat Hitler. To say that it could have been done without this country or this country is extremely naive and shows a contemptuous understand of the war.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/16/2009 12:37:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 6:48:24 AM, Volkov wrote:
It is arrogant for a country to claim that they're the best in the world. It is arrogant for a country to think it is the police force of the world. It is just stupid for a country that claims both those things to invade a country, then lie about why it invaded it. Then it is arrogant to act like you were still in the right all along.

Barack Obama is apologising for the disrespectful attitude the last administration showed towards the rest of the world. He isn't saying that the blood of the soldiers spilled on Normandy is the result of arrogance; he is saying the blood of soldiers that British, Polish, Australian and countless other nationalities committed to Bush's grand Inquisition is the result of arrogance.

Your country was so mad at France for not joining in the Coalition of the Willing that you decided to rename French fries "Freedom Fries" for awhile. Bush ran away the first few times former Canadian PM Jean Chretien tried to visit him, just because he was a vocal critic of Iraq. Hell, the US tried to block Canadian companies from joining in on the reconstruction effort in Iraq for the same reason!

Arrogance, arrogance, arrogance.

You dragged yourselves into that pit, and Obama is just trying to get you out. You should be proud that you have a leader that wants to have peaceful co-operation between countries, instead of the manhandling way Bush dealt with it.

Agree for the most part here.

Lmao at the fighting. "America is better." "No, Europe's better." "No, America is better." Rofl.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 1:16:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 11:50:26 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:44:48 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:43:29 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:38:07 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?

We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Yea, like Russia even cared about you guys. They were just as likely to turn on you as Japan once Germany was out of the way.

Still proves my point. We didn't need you. Especially you're screwed up idea of democracy. You're ideology 60 years ago was smart, set up plans t ore-build a broken country. With Iraq it's just "bomb the skinnies" and set up a house of cards government.

You're one to talk over there in the EU area. We're screwed up, but you guys aren't exactly the best either.

How so? You have the false belief you don't need justification to invade a country who might be a threat, even without evidence. We know when to pick our fights. Kosovo? Sent peacekeepers and allowed it to properly stabilize. South Ossetia. Stayed low and said little, except to try and get Russia out. Of course, Russia fears the E.U.

Who ever said I was pro for the invasion of Iraq? I wasn't talking about you guys and wars, I was talking about your style of government.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 1:21:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 12:22:32 PM, MistahKurtz wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

No, it couldn't. Neither could the U.S. The point is that it needed all the allied powers, that's why they were allied Seriously, do you people read my posts?

Without the U.S., Europe would've been taken.

EXACTLY. But without every other allied power, Hitler would have taken Europe and created a military power that far surpassed that of America.
You misunderstand me. I know that America couldn't do it alone, I was just saying it couldn't have been done without us.
USSR were the bad guys in the beginning. They didn't help us because they wanted too, they helped us because Germany was their enemy and they wanted to spread communism.
Yeah, it was either that or because they actually didn't want to be involved at all, but Hitler attacked them. They became important participants because they were fighting to save their slavic brothers who Hitler saw as inferior, such as the Jews. Do you even read history books?
Umm, Russia helped Hitler in the beginning. They helped because they wanted more power and to spread communism. When Germany attacked them, they had no choice but to fight back. Do you read the history books?
Please explain better.

Groan. Mussolini tried to create an African empire, but African and British resistance proved too strong and began to beat Mussolini, so Hitler had to divert power from the Russian campaign to help save Italy.
So what, that's mostly irrelevant.
Fair enough, I agree that the other countries did help out. I just think that we helped out the most.

How thick are you? I don't mean to be a jerk, but to say things like "We helped out the most" belittles you to being a snotty little 5th grader. This isn't recess, this is the safety and security of the Western world we're talking about. For the U.S to march around unopposed because they 'helped out the most' over 50 years ago is deplorable and most reasonable people in the U.S government recognize this.
So you agree we helped out the most. You keep misreading me. I DON'T THINK WHAT THE US IS DOING CURRENTLY IS GOOD! We haven't been able to march around unopposed in over a decade, and I'm glad for it. I hate it when other countries try to control each other like the U.S. use to and still does. So does the EU and China.
No country should "owe" another, but they should be there for eachother

Exactly, that's what I'm arguing. You're trying to convince me of the opposite.
You misread me.
Actually, the EU are the ones who try and control everything. The U.S. tries, but we've been losing power for a long time. I don't think anybody should be forced to do anything they don't want too. That's why I have problems with the EU and what the US use to and still tries to be.

That's blatantly untrue. Back it up.
It's untrue that the US has been losing power?
At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Wrong. Russia, despite having more manpower, had inefficient and outdated equipment. During Operation Barbarossa, Germany absolutely crushed Russia. It was only a few miles from Leningrad that Russia finally began to push back against the Nazis, having already suffered immeasurable losses. Russia's military weakness was illustrated in her failed invasion of Finland.

You're all missing the point in that EVERY ALLIED POWER was needed to defeat Hitler. To say that it could have been done without this country or this country is extremely naive and shows a contemptuous understand of the war.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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5/16/2009 1:22:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
*sigh*

True Americans shut up and take advantage of their freedoms without losing their minds to propaga...I mean, patriotism.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/16/2009 1:30:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 1:22:31 PM, Kleptin wrote:
*sigh*

True Americans shut up and take advantage of their freedoms without losing their minds to propaga...I mean, patriotism.

Yeah, patriotism is brainwash.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 2:03:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 1:22:31 PM, Kleptin wrote:
*sigh*

True Americans shut up and take advantage of their freedoms without losing their minds to propaga...I mean, patriotism.

Who said that I'm Pro-America? I am, a little. It's more that I'm not anti-america.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 3:15:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 1:16:20 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:50:26 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:44:48 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:43:29 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:38:07 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:30:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:20:30 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:19:10 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:13:14 AM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/16/2009 11:00:23 AM, MistahKurtz wrote:
You know what makes me furious whenever I read this contrived dribble? To say that America 'saved' anyone during World War II ignores the contributions of every other allied country.
Europe couldn't do it by itself. I'm not saying the other countries didn't help, I'm just saying they NEEDED us too.

2.5 million U.S.S.R soldiers. I think Europe could have done it independently.

What exactly are you saying?

We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully.

Yea, like Russia even cared about you guys. They were just as likely to turn on you as Japan once Germany was out of the way.

Still proves my point. We didn't need you. Especially you're screwed up idea of democracy. You're ideology 60 years ago was smart, set up plans t ore-build a broken country. With Iraq it's just "bomb the skinnies" and set up a house of cards government.

You're one to talk over there in the EU area. We're screwed up, but you guys aren't exactly the best either.

How so? You have the false belief you don't need justification to invade a country who might be a threat, even without evidence. We know when to pick our fights. Kosovo? Sent peacekeepers and allowed it to properly stabilize. South Ossetia. Stayed low and said little, except to try and get Russia out. Of course, Russia fears the E.U.

Who ever said I was pro for the invasion of Iraq? I wasn't talking about you guys and wars, I was talking about your style of government.

What about our government? The E.U. is a loose confederation of European powers to prevent another large scale European war breaking out.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/16/2009 4:21:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Patriots are so quick to take up that position ("we saved your asses") that it does look arrogant. It is like you assume that because you joined in on two wars and helped Europe rebuild, you're God's gift to the world, and all other countries must bow down. Yet you wonder why Europeans aren't so keen on you guys.

Leadership in the world isn't about saying, "if you don't join my folly war, I'll block all your trade" or "we helped you in the 1940's, you better help us now." Its about saying, "hey this guy is a madman, help us take him out. No? Well thats ok, and no don't worry, we won't block your construction companies from helping the reconstruction process."

The US, up until the last couple years of Bush's presidency, lost sight of that. That is why Europeans get so P/O.
crackofdawn_Jr
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5/16/2009 4:28:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 4:21:36 PM, Volkov wrote:
Patriots are so quick to take up that position ("we saved your asses") that it does look arrogant. It is like you assume that because you joined in on two wars and helped Europe rebuild, you're God's gift to the world, and all other countries must bow down. Yet you wonder why Europeans aren't so keen on you guys.
That's not what I'm arguing at all.
Leadership in the world isn't about saying, "if you don't join my folly war, I'll block all your trade" or "we helped you in the 1940's, you better help us now." Its about saying, "hey this guy is a madman, help us take him out. No? Well thats ok, and no don't worry, we won't block your construction companies from helping the reconstruction process."
When did I ever say I approved of these thigns?
The US, up until the last couple years of Bush's presidency, lost sight of that. That is why Europeans get so P/O.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/16/2009 4:32:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 4:28:10 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
That's not what I'm arguing at all.

Well thats ok, because it wasn't directed to you.

When did I ever say I approved of these thigns?

Because it wasn't directed to you, I never said you did approve of it. More over, it was the former president that approved of those tactics, as exemplified by 8 years of bad diplomacy. It was a point about why Europeans, and many other nations, are fed up with the American superiority-complex, and that it is nice to see a President who isn't promoting that.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/16/2009 4:34:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 4:32:57 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/16/2009 4:28:10 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
That's not what I'm arguing at all.

Well thats ok, because it wasn't directed to you.

When did I ever say I approved of these thigns?

Because it wasn't directed to you, I never said you did approve of it. More over, it was the former president that approved of those tactics, as exemplified by 8 years of bad diplomacy. It was a point about why Europeans, and many other nations, are fed up with the American superiority-complex, and that it is nice to see a President who isn't promoting that.

I respectfully disagree with you.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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5/16/2009 4:52:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully."

Then sir, if you didn't need us, why the heck didn't you just do it by yourself? We came in to defeat Japan and to help out, like true allies should. We weren't there to say, Bow down to us, you low-lives, we said Kill the Third Reich. And just because russia, who wants to enslave the WHOLE world with communism, has 2.5 million men doesn't necessarily help you guys at all, because they want to enslave the WHOLE world with Communism. Britain are good allies, unlike france and Germany.
"After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully."

Yes, and do you know what the world would now be in because of those successes by communistic dictators? Chaotic, poverty-stricken, carp-holes(yes, this is now a new word). Look at the History of communism in a nation that has succeeded? Where is there a great communistic utopia? Nowhere, because it doesn't work, so we and our allies actually saved you from U.S.S.R and The Third Reich. Is it arrogance or is it truth? We did contribute to the saving of free peoples, GREATLY. All nations MADE america because America is a land of Freedom to all. That is why IT has succeeded over all other odds and has prospered long and now Obama wants to go back to the idiotic system of Communism and Socialism, Please. It makes no sense. As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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5/16/2009 5:00:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"Leadership in the world isn't about saying, "if you don't join my folly war, I'll block all your trade" or "we helped you in the 1940's, you better help us now." Its about saying, "hey this guy is a madman, help us take him out. No? Well thats ok, and no don't worry, we won't block your construction companies from helping the reconstruction process."

The US, up until the last couple years of Bush's presidency, lost sight of that. That is why Europeans get so P/O."

But wait I thought you said we aren't a gift from God so why should we have to help YOU with YOUR reconstruction, we give you stuff, and you want more and then when we stop helping you, and you get P/O'd about it? Tell me is wrong with that picture? What arrogant things have we done, by the way? Fighting a war with you guys, dying with you guys and your STILL ungrateful? We fought and died for this? And you say we are always in the wrong and we are the most arrogant country, because we dies for YOU and for us.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/16/2009 5:02:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/16/2009 4:52:29 PM, ClayMeister wrote:
"We didn't need the U.S. help to overcome Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The U.S.S.R had 2.5 million soldiers. More than enough to overthrow the 3rd Reich. Britain had millions of soldiers, and 1 million home guard, which would have devastated the Germans. Add to that French resistance and Canadian forces. After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully."

Then sir, if you didn't need us, why the heck didn't you just do it by yourself? We came in to defeat Japan and to help out, like true allies should. We weren't there to say, Bow down to us, you low-lives, we said Kill the Third Reich. And just because russia, who wants to enslave the WHOLE world with communism, has 2.5 million men doesn't necessarily help you guys at all, because they want to enslave the WHOLE world with Communism. Britain are good allies, unlike france and Germany.
"After defeating Germany, Russia would have turned to Japan. They invaded Manchuria successfully."

America couldn't have taken Berlin by themselves. Germany lost because it ended up fighting a two-fronted war it could never realistically win. Furthermore, America didn't do much in the way of contribution. Most soldiers in the East were British.

Russia didn't want to enslave the whole world with communism. Stalin did, and utilised secret forces to do so. Most Russians however lived in fear of Stalin, and wished for Lenin to come back. Communism doesn't wish to enslave, anyway.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.