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Why Race Matters

Reasoning
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12/4/2011 1:48:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why do libertarians around here seem to care so much about race? The answer is rather simple. If it's true that blacks, on average, are genetically predisposed to have low IQ than whites, on average, then it shouldn't come as a surprise that whites end up with better test scores, get into better colleges and generally have a more prosperous life. This result has nothing to do with irrational racial prejudice and proposed solutions such as affirmative action are nothing but tomfoolery.

For comparison, since women are on average shorter than men for biological reasons, it would be completely ridiculous to think that the shortness of women is due to unfair male prejudice. And a program that added extra inches to a woman's recorded height in order to correct for this "measurement bias" would be laughed off the stage.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
OMGJustinBieber
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12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:16:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thank you for making this point.

A lot of people wonder why I talk about race so much. The fact is that I don't actually care about race. However, many statists justify state programs on the basis of racial inequity.

So, all of the statists who claim to not believe in race are actually advocating race specific programs meant to help "oppressed races".

The reason that libertarians, like myself, talk about racial genetic differences, with things like intelligence, is that these differences, not some "oppression" is the main reason behind racial inequities. Therefore, these race specific state programs are not so easily justifiable, as racial differences in social outcomes are more a result of natural market functions than of "oppression".

I know I am just restating a lot of what is in the OP, but I get a lot of heat for talking about race. I would just like to explain exactly why I walk about race.

And, I would like to again thank Reasoning for making this thread.
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jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:18:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.

The fact is that Affirmative Action is very economically innefficient. Once we acknowledge that racial differences in education and income are the result of innate genetic differences, and not societal racism, it becomes clear how silly and innefficient Affirmative Action is.
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nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:18:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Intelligence is not something you are given at birth and remains static. I could make myself more intelligent right now by taking classes or reading or studying some new subject. I could also make myself less intelligent by not using my brain. I can't make myself any taller or shorter.
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:23:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:18:52 PM, nonentity wrote:
Intelligence is not something you are given at birth and remains static. I could make myself more intelligent right now by taking classes or reading or studying some new subject. I could also make myself less intelligent by not using my brain. I can't make myself any taller or shorter.

"Intelligence has been defined in different ways, including the abilities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, planning and problem solving."

Yes, intelligence can change. However, there is a massive genetic component here. The standard measure of intelligence is IQ which is about 76% Genetic and 11% Environmental (for adults, children are less influenced by genes), the other 13% is simply day to day fluctuations in one's ability to take an IQ test.
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innomen
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12/4/2011 2:26:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:17:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
Are Asians generally better off than whites? Why are there so many poor people in China?

They actually have a higher rate of upward mobility than any other race in the US.
000ike
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12/4/2011 2:28:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:18:52 PM, nonentity wrote:
Intelligence is not something you are given at birth and remains static. I could make myself more intelligent right now by taking classes or reading or studying some new subject. I could also make myself less intelligent by not using my brain. I can't make myself any taller or shorter.

This. You toss around the term "IQ", Jimtimmy, without even having the slightest understanding of what it is and how it works. By your reasoning, a baby should be able to take an IQ test and accurately reflect his inherited capacity for intelligence.

"A common error is to assume that a heritability figure is necessarily unchangeable. The value of heritability can change if the impact of environment (or of genes) in the population is substantially altered.[6] If the environmental variation encountered by different individuals increases, then the heritability figure would decrease. On the other hand, if everyone had the same environment, then heritability would be 100%." (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:29:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:26:52 PM, innomen wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:17:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
Are Asians generally better off than whites? Why are there so many poor people in China?

They actually have a higher rate of upward mobility than any other race in the US.

But if intelligence is something you are born with because of your race and culture has little to do with it, (and your intelligence is directly related to your income according to reasoning and jimmy) why are people in China poor? Are they not Asian? Why are the Asians in the US much better off than the Asians in China?

Obviously race cannot be the only explanation, nor the most important.
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:32:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:28:24 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:18:52 PM, nonentity wrote:
Intelligence is not something you are given at birth and remains static. I could make myself more intelligent right now by taking classes or reading or studying some new subject. I could also make myself less intelligent by not using my brain. I can't make myself any taller or shorter.

This. You toss around the term "IQ", Jimtimmy, without even having the slightest understanding of what it is and how it works. By your reasoning, a baby should be able to take an IQ test and accurately reflect his inherited capacity for intelligence.

No, but an 18 year old should be able to take an IQ test and have it accuratley reflect his or her intelligence in MOST cases.


"A common error is to assume that a heritability figure is necessarily unchangeable. The value of heritability can change if the impact of environment (or of genes) in the population is substantially altered.[6] If the environmental variation encountered by different individuals increases, then the heritability figure would decrease. On the other hand, if everyone had the same environment, then heritability would be 100%." (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

I agree with this. However, the range of environments in the United States is not all that dramatic. Even the poorest neighbourhoods are not poor by international standards.

The IQ Gap between the US and Sudan has a large genetic component, but it is less genetic than the US black-white IQ gap, because the US-Sudan environmental gap is more dramatic.

The fact that environment matters in more extreme cases does not mean that genes don't matter for differences in the US.
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nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:33:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:23:00 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:18:52 PM, nonentity wrote:
Intelligence is not something you are given at birth and remains static. I could make myself more intelligent right now by taking classes or reading or studying some new subject. I could also make myself less intelligent by not using my brain. I can't make myself any taller or shorter.

"Intelligence has been defined in different ways, including the abilities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, planning and problem solving."


Yes, intelligence can change. However, there is a massive genetic component here. The standard measure of intelligence is IQ which is about 76% Genetic and 11% Environmental (for adults, children are less influenced by genes), the other 13% is simply day to day fluctuations in one's ability to take an IQ test.

I've already explained this to you. When scientists say intelligence is "hereditary" they don't mean you are born with it, like you are born with blue or brown eyes. The hereditary component sets a loose range and other factors determine where you fall upon that range, which is pretty significant.

It means that if a black and white person has the same range and the white person happens to fall higher within his range than the black person, the difference there is not genetics.
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:35:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:29:47 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:26:52 PM, innomen wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:17:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
Are Asians generally better off than whites? Why are there so many poor people in China?

They actually have a higher rate of upward mobility than any other race in the US.

But if intelligence is something you are born with because of your race and culture has little to do with it, (and your intelligence is directly related to your income according to reasoning and jimmy) why are people in China poor? Are they not Asian? Why are the Asians in the US much better off than the Asians in China?

Obviously race cannot be the only explanation, nor the most important.

I have explained this many times.

China is poor because they were communist for decades. That is fairly simple. Other Asian Countries, like Singapore or Hong Kong, are very rich and growing quickly.

And, as Innomen mentioned, Asian-Americans, despite being discriminated against for decades, are now wealthier, on average, than whites. They also happen to have higher average IQ than whites.

Likewise, African and Hispanic-Americans are still poorer, on average, than whites and they have lower average IQs.

This would all stand as major support for the idea that innate behavioral differences, not societal racism, are the main thing driving racial inequality.
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nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:37:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:35:31 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:29:47 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:26:52 PM, innomen wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:17:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
Are Asians generally better off than whites? Why are there so many poor people in China?

They actually have a higher rate of upward mobility than any other race in the US.

But if intelligence is something you are born with because of your race and culture has little to do with it, (and your intelligence is directly related to your income according to reasoning and jimmy) why are people in China poor? Are they not Asian? Why are the Asians in the US much better off than the Asians in China?

Obviously race cannot be the only explanation, nor the most important.

I have explained this many times.

China is poor because they were communist for decades. That is fairly simple. Other Asian Countries, like Singapore or Hong Kong, are very rich and growing quickly.


So the political and economic systems of African nations have nothing to do with it? That's good to know.

And, as Innomen mentioned, Asian-Americans, despite being discriminated against for decades, are now wealthier, on average, than whites. They also happen to have higher average IQ than whites.

Likewise, African and Hispanic-Americans are still poorer, on average, than whites and they have lower average IQs.

This would all stand as major support for the idea that innate behavioral differences, not societal racism, are the main thing driving racial inequality.
OMGJustinBieber
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12/4/2011 2:40:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:18:06 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.

The fact is that Affirmative Action is very economically innefficient. Once we acknowledge that racial differences in education and income are the result of innate genetic differences, and not societal racism, it becomes clear how silly and innefficient Affirmative Action is.

It doesn't follow from "blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence" that "affirmative action and other programs that seek to further blacks are useless."
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:40:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:37:57 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:35:31 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:29:47 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:26:52 PM, innomen wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:17:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
Are Asians generally better off than whites? Why are there so many poor people in China?

They actually have a higher rate of upward mobility than any other race in the US.

But if intelligence is something you are born with because of your race and culture has little to do with it, (and your intelligence is directly related to your income according to reasoning and jimmy) why are people in China poor? Are they not Asian? Why are the Asians in the US much better off than the Asians in China?

Obviously race cannot be the only explanation, nor the most important.

I have explained this many times.

China is poor because they were communist for decades. That is fairly simple. Other Asian Countries, like Singapore or Hong Kong, are very rich and growing quickly.


So the political and economic systems of African nations have nothing to do with it? That's good to know.

Do you ever wonder where these political systems come from?

Believe it or not, the political systems were created by Africans, as were the economic systems. So, they have everything to do with it, but they are the result of what Africans wanted.

Same goes for everywhere else.

But, how do you deal with the fact that, despite decades of discrimination, the Asians, who also have high IQs, managed to make high incomes in America?


And, as Innomen mentioned, Asian-Americans, despite being discriminated against for decades, are now wealthier, on average, than whites. They also happen to have higher average IQ than whites.

Likewise, African and Hispanic-Americans are still poorer, on average, than whites and they have lower average IQs.

This would all stand as major support for the idea that innate behavioral differences, not societal racism, are the main thing driving racial inequality.
President of DDO
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:42:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:40:35 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:18:06 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.

The fact is that Affirmative Action is very economically innefficient. Once we acknowledge that racial differences in education and income are the result of innate genetic differences, and not societal racism, it becomes clear how silly and innefficient Affirmative Action is.

It doesn't follow from "blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence" that "affirmative action and other programs that seek to further blacks are useless."

Okay, so try this one on for size:

"Race doesn't exist, so we should make programs that help certain "oppressed" races."

That is incredibly illogical, yet many race deniers advocate that exact position.
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OMGJustinBieber
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12/4/2011 2:44:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:42:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:40:35 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:18:06 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.

The fact is that Affirmative Action is very economically innefficient. Once we acknowledge that racial differences in education and income are the result of innate genetic differences, and not societal racism, it becomes clear how silly and innefficient Affirmative Action is.

It doesn't follow from "blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence" that "affirmative action and other programs that seek to further blacks are useless."

Okay, so try this one on for size:

"Race doesn't exist, so we should make programs that help certain "oppressed" races."

That is incredibly illogical, yet many race deniers advocate that exact position.

Tell that to race deniers. It doesn't offer a meaningful rebuttal to me though.
nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:46:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:40:50 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:37:57 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:35:31 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:29:47 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:26:52 PM, innomen wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:17:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
Are Asians generally better off than whites? Why are there so many poor people in China?

They actually have a higher rate of upward mobility than any other race in the US.

But if intelligence is something you are born with because of your race and culture has little to do with it, (and your intelligence is directly related to your income according to reasoning and jimmy) why are people in China poor? Are they not Asian? Why are the Asians in the US much better off than the Asians in China?

Obviously race cannot be the only explanation, nor the most important.

I have explained this many times.

China is poor because they were communist for decades. That is fairly simple. Other Asian Countries, like Singapore or Hong Kong, are very rich and growing quickly.


So the political and economic systems of African nations have nothing to do with it? That's good to know.


Do you ever wonder where these political systems come from?


Believe it or not, the political systems were created by Africans, as were the economic systems. So, they have everything to do with it, but they are the result of what Africans wanted.


You don't know what Africans want lol

Same goes for everywhere else.


Except China?

But, how do you deal with the fact that, despite decades of discrimination, the Asians, who also have high IQs, managed to make high incomes in America?


I'm not American and I know little of American history so I can't explain the behaviour of black Americans. There are huge cultural differences between blacks. The Africans I know in the US are pretty well off, as is my family, and I can only speak for what I know.
nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:47:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:42:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:40:35 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:18:06 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.

The fact is that Affirmative Action is very economically innefficient. Once we acknowledge that racial differences in education and income are the result of innate genetic differences, and not societal racism, it becomes clear how silly and innefficient Affirmative Action is.

It doesn't follow from "blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence" that "affirmative action and other programs that seek to further blacks are useless."

Okay, so try this one on for size:

"Race doesn't exist, so we should make programs that help certain "oppressed" races."

That is incredibly illogical, yet many race deniers advocate that exact position.

LOL The idea is that scientifically race does not exist, but culturally some people are treated differently based on their skin tone and should be helped accordingly.
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:51:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:46:20 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:40:50 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:37:57 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:35:31 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:29:47 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:26:52 PM, innomen wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:17:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
Are Asians generally better off than whites? Why are there so many poor people in China?

They actually have a higher rate of upward mobility than any other race in the US.

But if intelligence is something you are born with because of your race and culture has little to do with it, (and your intelligence is directly related to your income according to reasoning and jimmy) why are people in China poor? Are they not Asian? Why are the Asians in the US much better off than the Asians in China?

Obviously race cannot be the only explanation, nor the most important.

I have explained this many times.

China is poor because they were communist for decades. That is fairly simple. Other Asian Countries, like Singapore or Hong Kong, are very rich and growing quickly.


So the political and economic systems of African nations have nothing to do with it? That's good to know.


Do you ever wonder where these political systems come from?


Believe it or not, the political systems were created by Africans, as were the economic systems. So, they have everything to do with it, but they are the result of what Africans wanted.


You don't know what Africans want lol

Um, based on the fact that they chose a certain system, I kinda do.


Same goes for everywhere else.


Except China?

No, Chinese people wanted communism, and they got it. They realized how bad it was, and they turned it around.


But, how do you deal with the fact that, despite decades of discrimination, the Asians, who also have high IQs, managed to make high incomes in America?


I'm not American and I know little of American history so I can't explain the behaviour of black Americans. There are huge cultural differences between blacks. The Africans I know in the US are pretty well off, as is my family, and I can only speak for what I know.

True, but they are not as well of as whites.
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Mirza
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12/4/2011 2:51:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
High intelligence does not necessarily cause any significant success. IQ tests are also not developed enough for all kinds of different people. These tests assume that a person's intellect is aggressive by definition, while intellectual aggressiveness can be heavily influenced by one's upbringing. If blacks are granted the same social prosperity as other people in the world, I think in 20-30 years they'd have, on average, the same IQ score as other people.
JustCallMeTarzan
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12/4/2011 2:52:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:32:03 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

However, the range of environments in the United States is not all that dramatic. Even the poorest neighbourhoods are not poor by international standards.

The not-so-dramatic range in the US would, after all, explain it's low Gini Index... oh... wait...
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:52:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:47:28 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:42:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:40:35 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:18:06 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.

The fact is that Affirmative Action is very economically innefficient. Once we acknowledge that racial differences in education and income are the result of innate genetic differences, and not societal racism, it becomes clear how silly and innefficient Affirmative Action is.

It doesn't follow from "blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence" that "affirmative action and other programs that seek to further blacks are useless."

Okay, so try this one on for size:

"Race doesn't exist, so we should make programs that help certain "oppressed" races."

That is incredibly illogical, yet many race deniers advocate that exact position.

LOL The idea is that scientifically race does not exist, but culturally some people are treated differently based on their skin tone and should be helped accordingly.

Oh, okay.

It just so happens that these people who get "treated differently" also behave differently and have different levels of intelligence.
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nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:54:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:51:29 PM, jimtimmy wrote:


No, Chinese people wanted communism, and they got it. They realized how bad it was, and they turned it around.


Okay, you still haven't explained why, if intelligence is genetic and Asians are genetically the smartest and intelligence is directly related to income, so many Chinese people in China are still incredibly poor. For the Asians, it's cultural, but for the Africans, it's genetic?


But, how do you deal with the fact that, despite decades of discrimination, the Asians, who also have high IQs, managed to make high incomes in America?


I'm not American and I know little of American history so I can't explain the behaviour of black Americans. There are huge cultural differences between blacks. The Africans I know in the US are pretty well off, as is my family, and I can only speak for what I know.

True, but they are not as well of as whites.

And you can make that assumption because...?
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:55:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:52:21 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:32:03 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

However, the range of environments in the United States is not all that dramatic. Even the poorest neighbourhoods are not poor by international standards.

The not-so-dramatic range in the US would, after all, explain it's low Gini Index... oh... wait...

What a clever point...

If you knew anything about intelligence, you would know that extremely bad environments can hurt IQ, but once things like malnutrition are out of the way, environment stops mattering.

But, look at all the starvation in America... oh... wait....
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JustCallMeTarzan
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12/4/2011 2:55:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:51:29 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

Believe it or not, the political systems were created by Africans, as were the economic systems. So, they have everything to do with it, but they are the result of what Africans wanted.


You don't know what Africans want lol

Um, based on the fact that they chose a certain system, I kinda do.

WOW, this is SO incorrect. The political and economical systems in Africa were created by the EUROPEANS. If I recall my world history correctly, mostly the Brits and the Dutch, but I believe the French had a hand in it as well...

LOTS of the present-day problems in Africa were caused because the Europeans would come to an area and appoint a localized ruler regardless of the current economic/political leanings of the area.
nonentity
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12/4/2011 2:55:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:52:45 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:47:28 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:42:16 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:40:35 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:18:06 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:13:52 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Even if this is true, I don't understand how it follows that programs like affirmative action are without merit. I personally don't agree with affirmative action, but I don't see how this idea, which I don't believe is true, invalidates that policy.

The fact is that Affirmative Action is very economically innefficient. Once we acknowledge that racial differences in education and income are the result of innate genetic differences, and not societal racism, it becomes clear how silly and innefficient Affirmative Action is.

It doesn't follow from "blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence" that "affirmative action and other programs that seek to further blacks are useless."

Okay, so try this one on for size:

"Race doesn't exist, so we should make programs that help certain "oppressed" races."

That is incredibly illogical, yet many race deniers advocate that exact position.

LOL The idea is that scientifically race does not exist, but culturally some people are treated differently based on their skin tone and should be helped accordingly.

Oh, okay.

It just so happens that these people who get "treated differently" also behave differently and have different levels of intelligence.

Right so they must behave in a certain way that causes other people to treat them differently, but the relationship can't possibly be reciprocal. It can't possibly be that some people behave in a certain way BECAUSE of how other people respond to them? Okay. I don't even know why I bother responding to these threads.
JustCallMeTarzan
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12/4/2011 2:56:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:55:14 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:52:21 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:32:03 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

However, the range of environments in the United States is not all that dramatic. Even the poorest neighbourhoods are not poor by international standards.

The not-so-dramatic range in the US would, after all, explain it's low Gini Index... oh... wait...

What a clever point...

If you knew anything about intelligence, you would know that extremely bad environments can hurt IQ, but once things like malnutrition are out of the way, environment stops mattering.

But, look at all the starvation in America... oh... wait....

You mean look at all the malnutrition in America...
jimtimmy
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12/4/2011 2:57:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:54:13 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 12/4/2011 2:51:29 PM, jimtimmy wrote:


No, Chinese people wanted communism, and they got it. They realized how bad it was, and they turned it around.


Okay, you still haven't explained why, if intelligence is genetic and Asians are genetically the smartest and intelligence is directly related to income, so many Chinese people in China are still incredibly poor. For the Asians, it's cultural, but for the Africans, it's genetic?

No, because the Chinese were communists. And, my main point is that when Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites were all put in the same political and economic system (America), Asians, who were smartest, ended up richest. Whites, who were second smartest, ended up second richest. Hispanics, who were third smartest, ended up third richest. Blacks, who were least intelligent, ended up least wealthy.

And, the Chinese were communist, but now they are moving towards free market on their own.



But, how do you deal with the fact that, despite decades of discrimination, the Asians, who also have high IQs, managed to make high incomes in America?


I'm not American and I know little of American history so I can't explain the behaviour of black Americans. There are huge cultural differences between blacks. The Africans I know in the US are pretty well off, as is my family, and I can only speak for what I know.

True, but they are not as well of as whites.

And you can make that assumption because...?

Income, Crime, Poverty... the list goes on
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