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Why is America so Anti-Left?

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/6/2011 6:26:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We went through extensive and psychotic means to suppress and deter communism during the Cold War,...but have never done the same to the radical right wing faction so freely spouting their fascist views. No one gets scared when Michele Bachmann stands on the national stage promising to convert the United States into a Christian country. No one is startled and ordering mass investigations for the evangelicals that would probably turn the federal government into a totalitarian church. Where is the McCarthyist suspicion and fright for the right?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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12/6/2011 6:28:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
All the examples you provide are old.

The title should be "Why WAS America so Anti-Left?"
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/6/2011 6:32:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
because the left want to take away my constitutional freedoms
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
000ike
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12/6/2011 6:35:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 6:32:41 PM, 16kadams wrote:
because the left want to take away my constitutional freedoms

lol so does the radical right, to a worse degree.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lordknukle
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12/6/2011 6:39:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Fascism is radical-left.

Please get your facts straight before insulting ideologies.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/6/2011 6:41:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 6:28:23 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
All the examples you provide are old.

The title should be "Why WAS America so Anti-Left?"

The unwarranted backlash against OSW is a current example.

At the OP, I completely see what you're saying, but I think there are a number of people who are terrified by Michelle Bachmann and vocal about it (she's sort of seen as a joke candidate by leftists and moderates alike). Bush was pretty openly hated too. The user 16kadams is a perfect example of someone who is brainwashed to think one side is any worse than the other in terms of trampling on our freedoms. I think it comes down to whether or not people think social freedoms are more important than economic ones. The sad fact is that a lot of right-wing economic policies are just as harmful as leftist ones; right-wingers just don't want to believe it.
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000ike
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12/6/2011 6:42:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 6:39:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism is radical-left.

Please get your facts straight before insulting ideologies.

Theres right wing and left wing facism. Please get your facts straight before making ignorant comments.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
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12/6/2011 6:42:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 6:35:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/6/2011 6:32:41 PM, 16kadams wrote:
because the left want to take away my constitutional freedoms

lol so does the radical right, to a worse degree.

In strictly constitutional terms, yes, the radical conservative base is worse than the radical liberal base.

Personally I side with both and neither.

As an aside: although you hate this 000ike, I'm a bit of a contrarian: because my circle of friends is almost entirely peopled with liberals, I feel compelled to defend against any stupid generalizations made about the conservatives.

This is largely due to the fact that:
a) I dislike broad generalizations when one isn't joking, and
b) I dislike the fact that few of said friends really get political philosophy.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
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12/6/2011 6:47:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 6:41:49 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/6/2011 6:28:23 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
All the examples you provide are old.

The title should be "Why WAS America so Anti-Left?"

The unwarranted backlash against OSW is a current example.

At the OP, I completely see what you're saying, but I think there are a number of people who are terrified by Michelle Bachmann and vocal about it (she's sort of seen as a joke candidate by leftists and moderates alike). Bush was pretty openly hated too. The user 16kadams is a perfect example of someone who is brainwashed to think one side is any worse than the other in terms of trampling on our freedoms. I think it comes down to whether or not people think social freedoms are more important than economic ones. The sad fact is that a lot of right-wing economic policies are just as harmful as leftist ones; right-wingers just don't want to believe it.

By unwarranted backlash, are you referring to the police brutality, or the fact that people dislike the movement?

Because the former I agree is bad, the second I do not.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
16kadams
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12/6/2011 6:53:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 6:35:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/6/2011 6:32:41 PM, 16kadams wrote:
because the left want to take away my constitutional freedoms

lol so does the radical right, to a worse degree.

No because the radical right is like me, and I believe in freedom and liberals believe in more goverment control. The extreme right is anarchism which ruin liberties because there is no law, so I am a Michele bachman conservative so to speak. e extreme left is total goverment control which is just as bad as anarchism. So both extremes are bad, but in my sense my way gives people more freedom, I need to change my tobacco rights thing tho.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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12/6/2011 6:54:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Both extremes suck, but the average conservative (like me) is better than the same amount of liberal (Obama), but both sides have problems, and I admit that.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Lordknukle
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12/6/2011 7:23:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 6:42:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/6/2011 6:39:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism is radical-left.

Please get your facts straight before insulting ideologies.

Theres right wing and left wing facism. Please get your facts straight before making ignorant comments.

Enlighten me.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/6/2011 7:48:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's actually pretty simple.

First, you seem to think that, by American standards, Michelle Bachmann's ideaology is as radical as communism. That, of course, is absurd. Everything Bachmann advocates is supported by a significant segment of America. By definition, that means that she is not a radical.

As for communism, the fear was of our main enemy, the Soviet Union. Communism was spreading like a disease. Numerous countries were picking up the Communist label, most with heavy Soviet influence.

Our enemy was the Soviets, and they had heavy ties with nearly every Communist country.

Honestly, most questions like this have fairly obvious answers.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/6/2011 9:56:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

So, my guess is that you support the individual liberty of to marry and the liberty for a woman to have an abortion, correct?
royalpaladin
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12/6/2011 9:57:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:56:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

So, my guess is that you support the individual liberty of to marry and the liberty for a woman to have an abortion, correct?

It appears that my computer did not type the full phrase. I meant to write "So, my guess is that you support the individual liberty of homosexuals to marry and the liberty for a woman to have an abortion, correct?"
royalpaladin
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12/6/2011 9:59:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

None of you have ever studied communism beyond that which you were told by the media. Marx advocated a state that would ONLY be governed by the people (as evidenced by the fact that he notes that the "state would wither away and we would reach the end of history.") He essentially wanted a participatory democracy, or a system of ultimate liberty and equality.
jimtimmy
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12/6/2011 10:06:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:59:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

None of you have ever studied communism beyond that which you were told by the media. Marx advocated a state that would ONLY be governed by the people (as evidenced by the fact that he notes that the "state would wither away and we would reach the end of history.") He essentially wanted a participatory democracy, or a system of ultimate liberty and equality.

Wow, you're a Marxist too... This all supports my theory of Royalpaladin is a retard who thinks she is smart because she is a Marxist at Columbia...
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/6/2011 10:27:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:06:43 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/6/2011 9:59:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

None of you have ever studied communism beyond that which you were told by the media. Marx advocated a state that would ONLY be governed by the people (as evidenced by the fact that he notes that the "state would wither away and we would reach the end of history.") He essentially wanted a participatory democracy, or a system of ultimate liberty and equality.

Wow, you're a Marxist too... This all supports my theory of Royalpaladin is a retard who thinks she is smart because she is a Marxist at Columbia...

Please explain why Marxism is equivalent with stupidity. I noticed that you did not even bother to refute my previous arguments on this thread.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/6/2011 10:36:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:27:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 10:06:43 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/6/2011 9:59:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

None of you have ever studied communism beyond that which you were told by the media. Marx advocated a state that would ONLY be governed by the people (as evidenced by the fact that he notes that the "state would wither away and we would reach the end of history.") He essentially wanted a participatory democracy, or a system of ultimate liberty and equality.

Wow, you're a Marxist too... This all supports my theory of Royalpaladin is a retard who thinks she is smart because she is a Marxist at Columbia...

Please explain why Marxism is equivalent with stupidity. I noticed that you did not even bother to refute my previous arguments on this thread.

Would you like to debate me on whether communism is better than capitalism?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/6/2011 10:39:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:27:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 10:06:43 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/6/2011 9:59:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

None of you have ever studied communism beyond that which you were told by the media. Marx advocated a state that would ONLY be governed by the people (as evidenced by the fact that he notes that the "state would wither away and we would reach the end of history.") He essentially wanted a participatory democracy, or a system of ultimate liberty and equality.

Wow, you're a Marxist too... This all supports my theory of Royalpaladin is a retard who thinks she is smart because she is a Marxist at Columbia...

Please explain why Marxism is equivalent with stupidity. I noticed that you did not even bother to refute my previous arguments on this thread.

Because, Marxism is based on incredibly stupid and illogical premises, such as the Labor Theory of Value and the Tabula Rasa theory of Human Nature...

Furthermore. you could just look at every country that has tried to rule by marxist principles... it is an absolute disaster...

Wait, lemme guess, "it wasnt really marxism"... did it ever occur to you that marx's stupid idea of a worker's utopia could never really exist?
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/6/2011 10:40:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

I lol'd at the "conservatives don't do" parts. Conservatives engage in all of the above.
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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/6/2011 10:43:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:57:44 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 9:56:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

So, my guess is that you support the individual liberty of to marry and the liberty for a woman to have an abortion, correct?

It appears that my computer did not type the full phrase. I meant to write "So, my guess is that you support the individual liberty of homosexuals to marry and the liberty for a woman to have an abortion, correct?"

You have two fundamental flaws in your argument.

First, the concept of individual liberty is exactly what it sounds. Solely for individuals. Individual liberty does not make it justified to take away the liberty of another human being (using abortion), regardless of how extreme individual liberty is within a society.

Second, liberty is defined as "the liberty of an individual to exercise freely those rights generally accepted as being outside of governmental control.". Gay marriage is not a right. Therefore, the not allowing of gays to marry does not infringe individual liberty.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/6/2011 10:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:36:42 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Would you like to debate me on whether communism is better than capitalism?

You can't debate against capitalism on this site and win.

Also, define capitalism. There's a difference between laissez faire and socio-capitalism.

Finally, define better (for this hypothetical debate). I once debated the humanitarian value of capitalism vs. communism, and lost the debate despite my opponent not making one humanitarian argument in favor of capitalism whatsoever. Discuss what you mean by "better." Will it be judged by fairness? Economic productivity? Environmental impact? Anyway, I don't think this person should accept the debate regardless :P
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Lordknukle
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12/6/2011 10:44:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:40:26 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

I lol'd at the "conservatives don't do" parts. Conservatives engage in all of the above.

Conservatives are pro individual liberty.
Conservatives are definitely pro economic liberty.
Conservatives are against big government, that is a liberal policy.
Conservatives do not have a desire for a world government (UN) and globalization, unlike liberals.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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12/6/2011 10:46:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:44:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/6/2011 10:36:42 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Would you like to debate me on whether communism is better than capitalism?

You can't debate against capitalism on this site and win.

Also, define capitalism. There's a difference between laissez faire and socio-capitalism.

Finally, define better (for this hypothetical debate). I once debated the humanitarian value of capitalism vs. communism, and lost the debate despite my opponent not making one humanitarian argument in favor of capitalism whatsoever. Discuss what you mean by "better." Will it be judged by fairness? Economic productivity? Environmental impact? Anyway, I don't think this person should accept the debate regardless :P

Whether or not it is better for the people and society in general. Not only theoretically, but also having been used practically.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Danielle
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12/6/2011 10:50:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:43:10 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
First, the concept of individual liberty is exactly what it sounds. Solely for individuals. Individual liberty does not make it justified to take away the liberty of another human being (using abortion), regardless of how extreme individual liberty is within a society.

A fetus has no inherent right to live parasitically off the host mother. It would be infringing upon the individual liberty of a non-disputed human being to force her to carry a baby to term despite the inherent risks and obstacles of pregnancy. Life begins at conception, but not everything that is alive has rights. Animals don't have rights, and they are more rational and self-sufficient than a fetus (and babies). Anyway, this is off topic from the intent of the OP.

Second, liberty is defined as "the liberty of an individual to exercise freely those rights generally accepted as being outside of governmental control.". Gay marriage is not a right. Therefore, the not allowing of gays to marry does not infringe individual liberty.

But if you're forced to pay into a system, I bet you'd expect the same privileges granted to other people who are also forced to pay into a system. It'd piss you off to be disadvantaged based on something so frivolous as sexuality.
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Danielle
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12/6/2011 10:55:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:46:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Whether or not it is better for the people and society in general. Not only theoretically, but also having been used practically.

Once again, what constitutes as "better" is completely subjective. I gave you examples of various measuring sticks. Also, just as there have been successful models of laissez faire capitalism (in some primitive societies or whatever), there have also been successful ventues of anarcho-syndicalism which is basically a form of communism. These historic examples wouldn't prove much in favor of either side; they'd just cancel each other out.
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16kadams
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12/6/2011 10:55:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:56:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/6/2011 7:27:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Fascism relies on the placement of the state above the citizens.

It is:
1. Subverting individual liberty (which conservatives don't do)
2. Subverting economic liberty (which conservatives don't do)
3. Advocating greater government expansion and affiliation with our lives (which conservatives don't do)
4. Advocating international interventionism for lebensraum (which conservatives don't do)

So, my guess is that you support the individual liberty of to marry and the liberty for a woman to have an abortion, correct?

No because overall we conservatives are restrictive on those terms, but our free market economics and other goverment policies reflect on what he is saying, so we are 'Fascist' in those ways, but overall we are more liberty giving than liberals in general. I.E. Gun rights are less restrictive, lower taxes, less regulation, a freer market, etc.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/6/2011 10:55:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 10:44:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Conservatives are pro individual liberty.
Conservatives are definitely pro economic liberty.
Conservatives are against big government, that is a liberal policy.
Conservatives do not have a desire for a world government (UN) and globalization, unlike liberals.

Define Conservatives. You are certainly not referring to Republicans.
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