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What do you guys think of Socialism?

Yarely
Posts: 329
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12/15/2011 2:18:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What do you guys think?
"Anarchism stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion and liberation of the human body from the coercion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. It stands for a social order based on the free grouping of individuals""
-Emma Goldman
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/15/2011 2:20:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 2:18:29 PM, Yarely wrote:
What do you guys think?

I'll write more when I get of my phone (built by capitalism) but in one word:
Awful.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/15/2011 2:23:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 2:20:35 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I'll write more when I get of my phone (built by capitalism) but in one word:
Awful.

Capitalism doesn't build things.

To the OP, socialism is flawed for both practical and moral reasons.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/15/2011 2:26:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Socialism is disastrous. Nationalization of corporations, too high taxation, heavily expanded public system, etc., is not productive whatsoever.

However, not all forms of socialism are to be heavily criticized. I think Titoism is by far one of the best.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/15/2011 2:37:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 2:23:17 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/15/2011 2:20:35 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I'll write more when I get of my phone (built by capitalism) but in one word:
Awful.

Capitalism doesn't build things.

To the OP, socialism is flawed for both practical and moral reasons.

I didn't mean literally...
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/15/2011 2:49:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 2:18:29 PM, Yarely wrote:
What do you guys think?

A particular branch of socialism, or just "public ownership of the means of production" (as opposed to individual ownership)?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/15/2011 3:14:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Awful in every form.

It is a verifiable and empirical failure. This means the hard socialism, like North Korea or Cuba. It also means the softer socialism, like France, Swede, and, to a lesser degree, the US.

The best form of government is no government. However, in the modern world, the best economies are the ones that are the most free market and least socialistic, see Hong Kong and Singapore.

These economies are very stable right now and have seen strong growth.
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/15/2011 4:56:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do you distinguish between state and anarchist socialism?
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jimtimmy
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12/15/2011 5:34:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 4:56:53 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Do you distinguish between state and anarchist socialism?

Good point... I was tallking about state socialism... I'm not a fan of anarchic socialism, but I am okay with its existance.
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/15/2011 5:47:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It means well, and I could understand why people would buy into it. I see socialism as a product of capitalism. I see the state as being an institution within capitalism. One that has powerful influence over the economy. I think its meddling causes more harm than good. Information makes for a better regulator than muscle.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/15/2011 6:07:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
i'd consider myself a socialist/communist

capitalism = a money war
socialism = some democratic restraint on that money war or something? (i suppose)
communism = complete abolition of that money war, complete working togetherness

or that's how i figure them anyway... really i'd not bother naming middle grounds in thinking about how states are run... it just confuses me... it's a two system dichotomy with everything else some mingling of those two systems & thus not really needing their own names...

but socialim (i suppose...) is the people of a society coming together to manage something of that society in some way shape or form while not managing everything of that society... what else is it? i dunno where people like roy think socialism ends while speaking out against it and living in what i'd consider a socialist state (or rather a dictatorship posing as a socialist state) backing what i'd consider socialist ideals... i mean i'd consider democracy socialist... everyone coming together to decide on things?

capitalism is private industry... people argue it's just because the people run private industry... bullsh1t, money runs private industry... people say money's a kinda vote... sure, a kinda vote where one person can have 5,000,000 times more of a vote than another person just because he raped and pillaged more than that person... just my bollox...

that's my thoughts on the whole political spectrum pretty much... it's all pretty easily summed up really i think :P
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/15/2011 6:13:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 5:47:21 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It means well, and I could understand why people would buy into it. I see socialism as a product of capitalism. I see the state as being an institution within capitalism. One that has powerful influence over the economy. I think its meddling causes more harm than good. Information makes for a better regulator than muscle.

And how does information get out? Stock investors need accurate info on companies income statements, balance sheets, the whole shebang. Companies have had a nasty habit of when things are not going well, lying on their reports (causing misinformation) to keep people investing.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/15/2011 6:17:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 5:47:21 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It means well, and I could understand why people would buy into it. I see socialism as a product of capitalism. I see the state as being an institution within capitalism. One that has powerful influence over the economy. I think its meddling causes more harm than good. Information makes for a better regulator than muscle.

baby markets... people ultimately don't give a fvck about anyone but themselves i think... i think the only way to make them care is by forming a collective... make them everyone to as high a degree as possible... but sure, modern "collectives" are pretty fvcked up... but only 'cos of people still caring only really about themselves in office...

hell, fvck you... but at least i'm honest about it...
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/15/2011 6:31:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 6:17:40 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/15/2011 5:47:21 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It means well, and I could understand why people would buy into it. I see socialism as a product of capitalism. I see the state as being an institution within capitalism. One that has powerful influence over the economy. I think its meddling causes more harm than good. Information makes for a better regulator than muscle.

baby markets... people ultimately don't give a fvck about anyone but themselves i think... i think the only way to make them care is by forming a collective... make them everyone to as high a degree as possible... but sure, modern "collectives" are pretty fvcked up... but only 'cos of people still caring only really about themselves in office...

hell, fvck you... but at least i'm honest about it...

and black baby markets mind you:

...and i don't mean as in the legal sale of black babies. though that reminds me... slavery...
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/15/2011 6:40:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
that's what people do with information... there're your individual demands right there... and there're your informed supplying them... you think the black market disappears with government cosmic? brains and brawn are a good combination... the collective needs its own brawn to have any hope... and its own brains...
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sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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12/15/2011 7:40:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What we see now in this country today is a glimpse of socialism taking hold and taking over. Class Warfare, unsustainable social programs, and expanding tyrannical govt regulating everything down to the salt you put on your food. That is socialism, you are nothing the state is everything. The individual is expendable and something to be rationed while the state and those who run it is to be afforded opulence.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/15/2011 8:08:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 6:13:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/15/2011 5:47:21 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It means well, and I could understand why people would buy into it. I see socialism as a product of capitalism. I see the state as being an institution within capitalism. One that has powerful influence over the economy. I think its meddling causes more harm than good. Information makes for a better regulator than muscle.

And how does information get out? Stock investors need accurate info on companies income statements, balance sheets, the whole shebang. Companies have had a nasty habit of when things are not going well, lying on their reports (causing misinformation) to keep people investing.

Ultimately, these things are unavoidable.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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12/15/2011 8:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 2:18:29 PM, Yarely wrote:
What do you guys think?

Socialism is Public ownership of Industry/Capital.
Capitalism is Private ownership of Industry/Capital.

There are many forms of socialism. For example Communism, which abolishes private property.

Socialism is bad because the role of Government is to protect the Life, Liberty, and property (owning & obtaining) of the entire community. Socialism violates the right to liberty, and property, and it does not serve the entire community, thus it is oppressive by nature.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/16/2011 3:55:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 8:39:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 12/15/2011 2:18:29 PM, Yarely wrote:
What do you guys think?

Socialism is Public ownership of Industry/Capital.
Capitalism is Private ownership of Industry/Capital.

There are many forms of socialism. For example Communism, which abolishes private property.

Socialism is bad because the role of Government is to protect the Life, Liberty, and property (owning & obtaining) of the entire community. Socialism violates the right to liberty, and property, and it does not serve the entire community, thus it is oppressive by nature.

I think that's just ridiculous... socialism is pretty much the sharing of a nation's wealth between everyone in that nation.. how is that not serving everyone? it is certainly more so than capitalism anyway... the one where the few own everything and for no reason than that they inherited it, that they landed on it pretty much...

capitalism would be like, say, if we were all beamed to this planet (or another habitable one to avoid confusion), with some landing on fertile rich land & building a wall around it to keep out the poor souls who landed in desert... there's a fine definition of it for you... these are my worldly riches because I got here first, fvck you unlucky people...

not serving everyone... pfffttt...
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Yarely
Posts: 329
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12/16/2011 6:41:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 4:56:53 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Do you distinguish between state and anarchist socialism?

I am referring to state socialism
"Anarchism stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion and liberation of the human body from the coercion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. It stands for a social order based on the free grouping of individuals""
-Emma Goldman
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/16/2011 11:05:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/15/2011 8:08:03 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 12/15/2011 6:13:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 12/15/2011 5:47:21 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It means well, and I could understand why people would buy into it. I see socialism as a product of capitalism. I see the state as being an institution within capitalism. One that has powerful influence over the economy. I think its meddling causes more harm than good. Information makes for a better regulator than muscle.

And how does information get out? Stock investors need accurate info on companies income statements, balance sheets, the whole shebang. Companies have had a nasty habit of when things are not going well, lying on their reports (causing misinformation) to keep people investing.



Ultimately, these things are unavoidable.

But they are minimizable (if that's a word).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/16/2011 12:19:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That kind of thing can backfire greatly in the end. I don't think it should be illegal, it's just stupid.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/16/2011 12:30:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wellllll...

I held off answering this because I wanted to see other people's arguments, knowing that most of you disagree with me.

However, here's the thing.

Socialism, and it's lateral evolution to Communism are neither good nor bad within their philosophical construct. It is conceivably functional. However, it's based on a different interpretation of "work." Rather than working for direct profit, as we under a capitalistic construct do, those in a socialist or communistic society would work for the sake of working. Working because they love what they're doing, they have a passion for it, or they just know how and understand their responsibility to society under that construct.

In that regard, everything that they do increases their access to whatever they can produce. That means that everyone has limitless potential to work together to create something incredible from which they can all benefit. This sort of sociological thinking is what manifests the "social" aspect in socialism.

However, with intellects such as what Marx has comes a certain cynicism borne of the experiences one has with people throughout their lives. It becomes acknowledged that if people were so responsible and so effective without leadership, there would be no leadership. So, he accommodated the inevitable need for a shepherd for the lost sheep by extending it into Communism. A central government that can maintain the collective drive toward progress and success.

To capitalists, it's an alien and radical idea. Moreover, to capitalistic countries, it's subversive. It results in things like sharing music with everyone so that no one buys it anymore. If we do that on a much larger scale, we'll collapse industries and things will begin working that way naturally. Then, everyone in power and every authority as we know it will suddenly become moot. This is why people like McCarthy called it the enemy of Capitalism.

Well.

All that said, would I go for something like that? Man, I don't know... not really. I'll say this much -- I'm willing to place my bets that future generations will consider it some primitive or primordial step in the right direction.
Kinesis
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12/16/2011 1:07:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Capitalism is tremendously productive at generating wealth, and I think our economies should be predominantly capitalist. I also think that socialist redistribution should be used to remedy the worst cases of inequality that is entailed by a predominantly capitalist economy.

I think any attempt to publicly own 'the means of production' or some other pure socialist or communist ideal is doomed to failure primarily because it does not realistically deal with people's incentives.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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12/16/2011 1:22:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/16/2011 3:55:42 AM, badger wrote:
At 12/15/2011 8:39:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 12/15/2011 2:18:29 PM, Yarely wrote:
What do you guys think?

Socialism is Public ownership of Industry/Capital.
Capitalism is Private ownership of Industry/Capital.

There are many forms of socialism. For example Communism, which abolishes private property.

Socialism is bad because the role of Government is to protect the Life, Liberty, and property (owning & obtaining) of the entire community. Socialism violates the right to liberty, and property, and it does not serve the entire community, thus it is oppressive by nature.

I think that's just ridiculous... socialism is pretty much the sharing of a nation's wealth between everyone in that nation.. how is that not serving everyone?

Because the majority will see a decrease in wealth. At least in America. In other countries it might be the minority who sees a decrease. Either way, some people have their right to property violated.
On top of this, depending on the form of socialism, the right to liberty ma be violated. If the form of socialism does not pay the workers for their service, than they violate the right to liberty (communism for example abolishes private property). And before you say they pay them with housing, clothing, and food; remember, that's the same line spewed by the slave owners in the 1800's.

it is certainly more so than capitalism anyway... the one where the few own everything and for no reason than that they inherited it, that they landed on it pretty much...

They don't own "everything". That would be a Feudal system, of lords and surfs. In Capitalism the wealth is distributed according to how it's earned. Doctors get paid more because their services are more valuable. Better the doctor the higher the salary. Workers are replaceable, and offer no invaluable skill, thus they get paid less.
In Capitalism one get's paid according to their societal value. That's why society pays them what they do.
In Socialism one get's paid what the government bureaucrat is willing to pay, regardless of societal worth. It thus becomes meaningless to choose a job which benefits society.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages." ~ Scottish Enlightenment philosopher, Adam Smith

capitalism would be like, say, if we were all beamed to this planet (or another habitable one to avoid confusion), with some landing on fertile rich land & building a wall around it to keep out the poor souls who landed in desert... there's a fine definition of it for you... these are my worldly riches because I got here first, fvck you unlucky people...

That's not really how it works. Capitalism is when one has a create idea, and they act on that idea. They invest in that idea, and they profit on that idea.

That's the innovative nature of capitalism.

Now capitalism as far as human relationship goes; in Capitalism one has a good harvest, because they have a green thumb and another has a bad harvest, because they over watered their plants.
The guy with the green thumb sells the guy who over watered his plants crops, so he does not starve. The guy with the green thumb is paid, for compensation of his work. The guy who over watered his plants, learned his lesson, and keeps a closer eye on the water next time.

In socialism, one has an idea, and tells the government, the government hijacks the idea, and the guy sees no profit, and no reward.

In socialism, one guy has a good crop, because he has a green thumb, another guy has a bad crop, because he over waters his plants. The government takes the crops away from the guy with a green thumb and distributes it equally amongst the two. The guy who over watered his plants, learns no lesson, because he suffers no consequences for incompetence.

not serving everyone... pfffttt...

Socialism doesn't serve everyone. It only serves the proles.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/16/2011 2:45:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Capitalism is the way things are. It isn't really a system so much as an observation of how the world works.

The state is simply an economic institution that has significant influence, enough to tip the balance of the whole economy. It effects the rules other economic institutions must play vy. When the state is run by people who more or less represent the other economic institutions, the rules are altered to benefit those who already have the power. This creates an unlevel playing field. This is simply how it is, whether or not it is good or bad depends on your goals and where you stand.

A socialist state is just a very powerful economic institute that exercises its ability to effect the rules liberally. A socialist state can come in many forms. For example, if the state is looked at as being the most important thing, you get something that resembles fascism. If the people who make up the state are held to being the most important, you get something that resembles a workers union... but that doesn't necessarily mean that the everyday Joe is part of that union. It depends on the nature of the state.

Capitalism and socialism are related, in that socialism works within a capitalist system.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/16/2011 2:51:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The state is only set apart from other businesses in its influence. People who aren't able to understand this are going to have a difficult time grasping economic philosophy.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp