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Social welfare is unconstitutional

DanT
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12/22/2011 3:24:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Social welfare is unconstitutional, because it doesn't grant congress the authority to create a welfare state.

The left try to equate social welfare with general welfare, yet the two are not synonymous.

Welfare simply means prosperity
Social, refers to a redistributive policy.

Thus social welfare is the redistribution of prosperity.

General means affecting or concerning everyone. 

Thus general welfare means the common good.

The term general welfare appears only twice in the constitution. The first is  in the preamble, and the second is in the taxing and spending clause.

The preamble does not define the government's authority, but rather acts as a introduction, addressing the goals, purpose, and reason behind the document.

The preamble states;

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

 The taxation and spending clause is located in section 8 of article 1, which defines the powers of congress.

The taxation and spending clause states;

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

This simply grants congress the power to generate revenue, and spend money

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises…;  but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Grants congress the power to generate revenue.

"to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; " 

This means congress can't tax ad libitum, they must only produce a revenue in order for paying the off the debt, funding the military, and funding legislation.

Thus term general welfare, in the tax and spending clause, was meant to restrict congress, not grant them more authority. The authority granted in that clause, was the authority to lay taxes and create a budget.

The term general welfare is limited to the other clauses within section 8, none of which grants congress the power to redistribute wealth. 

Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

A better understanding of the term general welfare can be drawn from reading the new Hampshire constitution, which predates the US constitution. 

Article  10.  Of the NH bill of rights, deals with the right to revolution, and it reads;

"Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/22/2011 3:29:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 3:24:38 AM, DanT wrote:
Social welfare is unconstitutional, because it doesn't grant congress the authority to create a welfare state.

The left try to equate social welfare with general welfare, yet the two are not synonymous.

Welfare simply means prosperity
Social, refers to a redistributive policy.

Thus social welfare is the redistribution of prosperity.

General means affecting or concerning everyone. 

Thus general welfare means the common good.

The term general welfare appears only twice in the constitution. The first is  in the preamble, and the second is in the taxing and spending clause.

The preamble does not define the government's authority, but rather acts as a introduction, addressing the goals, purpose, and reason behind the document.

The preamble states;

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


 The taxation and spending clause is located in section 8 of article 1, which defines the powers of congress.

The taxation and spending clause states;

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

This simply grants congress the power to generate revenue, and spend money

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises…;  but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Grants congress the power to generate revenue.

"to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; " 

This means congress can't tax ad libitum, they must only produce a revenue in order for paying the off the debt, funding the military, and funding legislation.

Thus term general welfare, in the tax and spending clause, was meant to restrict congress, not grant them more authority. The authority granted in that clause, was the authority to lay taxes and create a budget.

The term general welfare is limited to the other clauses within section 8, none of which grants congress the power to redistribute wealth. 

Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

A better understanding of the term general welfare can be drawn from reading the new Hampshire constitution, which predates the US constitution. 

Article  10.  Of the NH bill of rights, deals with the right to revolution, and it reads;

"Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."

Elastic clause/"necessary and proper" clause.

Deal with it.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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12/22/2011 5:22:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 3:24:38 AM, DanT wrote:
Social welfare is unconstitutional, because it doesn't grant congress the authority to create a welfare state.

The left try to equate social welfare with general welfare, yet the two are not synonymous.

Welfare simply means prosperity
Social, refers to a redistributive policy.

Thus social welfare is the redistribution of prosperity.

General means affecting or concerning everyone. 

Thus general welfare means the common good.

The term general welfare appears only twice in the constitution. The first is  in the preamble, and the second is in the taxing and spending clause.

The preamble does not define the government's authority, but rather acts as a introduction, addressing the goals, purpose, and reason behind the document.

The preamble states;

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


 The taxation and spending clause is located in section 8 of article 1, which defines the powers of congress.

The taxation and spending clause states;

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

This simply grants congress the power to generate revenue, and spend money

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises…;  but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Grants congress the power to generate revenue.

"to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; " 

This means congress can't tax ad libitum, they must only produce a revenue in order for paying the off the debt, funding the military, and funding legislation.

Thus term general welfare, in the tax and spending clause, was meant to restrict congress, not grant them more authority. The authority granted in that clause, was the authority to lay taxes and create a budget.

The term general welfare is limited to the other clauses within section 8, none of which grants congress the power to redistribute wealth. 

Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

A better understanding of the term general welfare can be drawn from reading the new Hampshire constitution, which predates the US constitution. 

Article  10.  Of the NH bill of rights, deals with the right to revolution, and it reads;

"Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."

LOL now that is goofy. The sole determiner of the constitutionality of any issue is the United States Supreme Court. Im Guessin you aint on that Court. Since Welfare isnt in the constitution, it can be implemented. Again, just a guess as you seem to be a bit confused.
DanT
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12/22/2011 1:16:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 5:22:05 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 12/22/2011 3:24:38 AM, DanT wrote:
Social welfare is unconstitutional, because it doesn't grant congress the authority to create a welfare state.

The left try to equate social welfare with general welfare, yet the two are not synonymous.

Welfare simply means prosperity
Social, refers to a redistributive policy.

Thus social welfare is the redistribution of prosperity.

General means affecting or concerning everyone. 

Thus general welfare means the common good.

The term general welfare appears only twice in the constitution. The first is  in the preamble, and the second is in the taxing and spending clause.

The preamble does not define the government's authority, but rather acts as a introduction, addressing the goals, purpose, and reason behind the document.

The preamble states;

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


 The taxation and spending clause is located in section 8 of article 1, which defines the powers of congress.

The taxation and spending clause states;

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

This simply grants congress the power to generate revenue, and spend money

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises…;  but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Grants congress the power to generate revenue.

"to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; " 

This means congress can't tax ad libitum, they must only produce a revenue in order for paying the off the debt, funding the military, and funding legislation.

Thus term general welfare, in the tax and spending clause, was meant to restrict congress, not grant them more authority. The authority granted in that clause, was the authority to lay taxes and create a budget.

The term general welfare is limited to the other clauses within section 8, none of which grants congress the power to redistribute wealth. 

Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

A better understanding of the term general welfare can be drawn from reading the new Hampshire constitution, which predates the US constitution. 

Article  10.  Of the NH bill of rights, deals with the right to revolution, and it reads;

"Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."

LOL now that is goofy. The sole determiner of the constitutionality of any issue is the United States Supreme Court. Im Guessin you aint on that Court.

The supreme court upheld that elaboration in Associate Justice Joseph Story's book, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, is the correct interpretation of the term General Welfare. Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare Clause is not an independent grant of power, but a qualification on the taxing power which included within it a power to spend tax revenues on matters of general interest to the federal government.

Since Welfare isnt in the constitution, it can be implemented. Again, just a guess as you seem to be a bit confused.

Actually if it isn't in the constitution than it's a power reserved for the states.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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12/22/2011 1:43:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 3:29:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/22/2011 3:24:38 AM, DanT wrote:
Social welfare is unconstitutional, because it doesn't grant congress the authority to create a welfare state.

The left try to equate social welfare with general welfare, yet the two are not synonymous.

Welfare simply means prosperity
Social, refers to a redistributive policy.

Thus social welfare is the redistribution of prosperity.

General means affecting or concerning everyone. 

Thus general welfare means the common good.

The term general welfare appears only twice in the constitution. The first is  in the preamble, and the second is in the taxing and spending clause.

The preamble does not define the government's authority, but rather acts as a introduction, addressing the goals, purpose, and reason behind the document.

The preamble states;

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


 The taxation and spending clause is located in section 8 of article 1, which defines the powers of congress.

The taxation and spending clause states;

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

This simply grants congress the power to generate revenue, and spend money

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises…;  but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Grants congress the power to generate revenue.

"to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; " 

This means congress can't tax ad libitum, they must only produce a revenue in order for paying the off the debt, funding the military, and funding legislation.

Thus term general welfare, in the tax and spending clause, was meant to restrict congress, not grant them more authority. The authority granted in that clause, was the authority to lay taxes and create a budget.

The term general welfare is limited to the other clauses within section 8, none of which grants congress the power to redistribute wealth. 

Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

A better understanding of the term general welfare can be drawn from reading the new Hampshire constitution, which predates the US constitution. 

Article  10.  Of the NH bill of rights, deals with the right to revolution, and it reads;

"Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."

Elastic clause/"necessary and proper" clause.

Deal with it.

The elastic clause does not grant congress infinite power.

The elastic clause states;

"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and properfor carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

(adj) necessary (absolutely essential)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(adj) proper (limited to the thing specified)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(adj) foregoing (especially of writing or speech; going before)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

So the elastic clause grants congress he power "To make all Laws which shall be [absolutely essential] and [limited to] carrying into Execution the [previously listed] Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

The elastic clause is limited to congress's power to tax and spend; to borrow money; to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, between the States, and with the native Americans; to create uniform immigration laws; to establish uniform laws regarding bankruptcies; to coin, and regulate the Value of money; to establish Standards of Weights and Measures; to combat counterfeiting; to establish Post Offices and Post Roads; to grant patents; to establish Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; to combat and define Piracy; to combat and define Felonies committed on the high Seas; to make laws regarding National Defense; to govern military districts, and to purchase land for military usage.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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12/22/2011 1:45:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 1:22:32 PM, comoncents wrote:
Yeah man, you need to go back to the drawing board. This is just your opinion...

(n) opinion (a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Thus it's not a opinion, as I have stated proof.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
logicrules
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12/22/2011 3:45:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Actually if it isn't in the constitution than it's a power reserved for the states.

Actually, it is up to the USSC, just for fun....Welfare is the States. I am sure you have some sly idea about federal welfare, corporate perhaps? Thus, if nothing else you are consistent....wrong again.
DanT
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12/22/2011 4:01:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 3:45:31 PM, logicrules wrote:
Actually if it isn't in the constitution than it's a power reserved for the states.

Actually, it is up to the USSC,

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." ~ Bill of Rights, 10th Amendment to the US constitution.

That's pretty clear and cut. United States v. Butler would agree.

just for fun....Welfare is the States. I am sure you have some sly idea about federal welfare, corporate perhaps?

Depends on the State constitution.

Thus, if nothing else you are consistent....wrong again.

Thus if nothing else you are a troll.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OMGJustinBieber
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12/22/2011 4:09:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

"General welfare" can also be conceived of as safety net in terms of welfare that no individual should be allowed to fall under. The "general welfare" is not being provided for if there are citizens who are starving on park benches, at least in my opinion.
DanT
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12/22/2011 4:13:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 4:09:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

"General welfare" can also be conceived of as safety net in terms of welfare that no individual should be allowed to fall under. The "general welfare" is not being provided for if there are citizens who are starving on park benches, at least in my opinion.

Again, the constitution doesn't grant congress the power to provide "welfare" of any kind, general or otherwise. The word General Welfare shows up twice, but the context in which they are used, grants no power to the Government what so ever. One being in the preamble, and the other be being used in a restrictive context.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OMGJustinBieber
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12/22/2011 4:22:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 4:13:18 PM, DanT wrote:
At 12/22/2011 4:09:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

"General welfare" can also be conceived of as safety net in terms of welfare that no individual should be allowed to fall under. The "general welfare" is not being provided for if there are citizens who are starving on park benches, at least in my opinion.

Again, the constitution doesn't grant congress the power to provide "welfare" of any kind, general or otherwise. The word General Welfare shows up twice, but the context in which they are used, grants no power to the Government what so ever. One being in the preamble, and the other be being used in a restrictive context.

Where is welfare explicitly prohibited against?
DanT
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12/22/2011 4:24:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 4:22:27 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/22/2011 4:13:18 PM, DanT wrote:
At 12/22/2011 4:09:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

"General welfare" can also be conceived of as safety net in terms of welfare that no individual should be allowed to fall under. The "general welfare" is not being provided for if there are citizens who are starving on park benches, at least in my opinion.

Again, the constitution doesn't grant congress the power to provide "welfare" of any kind, general or otherwise. The word General Welfare shows up twice, but the context in which they are used, grants no power to the Government what so ever. One being in the preamble, and the other be being used in a restrictive context.

Where is welfare explicitly prohibited against?

Constitution doesn't work like that. All powers not specifically granted to the Federal government is reserved for the states.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DetectableNinja
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12/22/2011 4:27:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That's quite a bit of weight you're putting on the Preamble.

THE PREAMBLE.

The Preamble isn't even part of the Constitution itself, it's an introduction.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DanT
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12/22/2011 4:28:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 4:27:16 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
That's quite a bit of weight you're putting on the Preamble.

THE PREAMBLE.

The Preamble isn't even part of the Constitution itself, it's an introduction.

Didn't put any weight on the preamble. read my original post, before joining in the discussion.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
comoncents
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12/22/2011 11:16:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/22/2011 4:09:49 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Redistribution of wealth conflicts with general welfare, as general refers to affecting the entire community, not simply a selective group.

"General welfare" can also be conceived of as safety net in terms of welfare that no individual should be allowed to fall under. The "general welfare" is not being provided for if there are citizens who are starving on park benches, at least in my opinion.

Exactly, it is all opinion. Look at supreme court cases, lord knows I have read way to many! It is called an "opinion"...
Come on, this is elementary!