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The state, government, or what ever

CosmicAlfonzo
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12/26/2011 10:12:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Even if you consider yourself ancap or ancom..

If government must exist, what do you think its overall function shoulx be?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Lordknukle
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12/26/2011 10:13:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:12:29 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Even if you consider yourself ancap or ancom..

If government must exist, what do you think its overall function shoulx be?

Governing social liberty.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
jimtimmy
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12/26/2011 10:16:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've heard some minarchists argue that a state monopoly on defense, law, and a vew other services is more efficient and the only way to combat the free rider problem.

I'm not convinced though.
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OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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12/26/2011 10:18:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:16:52 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I've heard some minarchists argue that a state monopoly on defense, law, and a vew other services is more efficient and the only way to combat the free rider problem.

I'm not convinced though.

Are you an AnCap now?
CosmicAlfonzo
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12/26/2011 10:19:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jimbo, I'm an anarchist in the truest sense of the word. Roll with it, brutha.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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12/26/2011 10:23:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:12:29 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Even if you consider yourself ancap or ancom..

If government must exist, what do you think its overall function shoulx be?

All government of right originates from the people, is founded in consent, and instituted for the general good.
Government is instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men
All men have certain natural, essential, and inherent rights - among which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing, and protecting, property; Government is instituted among men, in order to protect these rights, and anything more leads to tyranny and oppression.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
jimtimmy
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12/26/2011 10:28:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:18:21 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:16:52 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I've heard some minarchists argue that a state monopoly on defense, law, and a vew other services is more efficient and the only way to combat the free rider problem.

I'm not convinced though.

Are you an AnCap now?

I've been ancap for a while (I typically refer to myself as a Market Anarchist, which is virtually the same thing).

Did you think I was a minarchist?
President of DDO
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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12/26/2011 10:30:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:28:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:18:21 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:16:52 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I've heard some minarchists argue that a state monopoly on defense, law, and a vew other services is more efficient and the only way to combat the free rider problem.

I'm not convinced though.

Are you an AnCap now?

I've been ancap for a while (I typically refer to myself as a Market Anarchist, which is virtually the same thing).


Did you think I was a minarchist?

I knew you were either minarchist or ancap. I can't keep track of everyone.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/26/2011 10:35:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:18:08 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
Stopping society from becoming anarchy.

This. Anarchy is a violent stop-gap ideology that states that humans will naturally work together without forming any hierarchal order. I laugh.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
fever1996
Posts: 7
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12/26/2011 10:38:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A governments sole existence should rest on the leadership and welfare of the people. Their decisions should be made not to appease the people of the country, rather the government should make the decisions that will offer the greatest short and long term benifits for the people. And money, a government needs to make lots and lots of money to afford a good infastructure.
CosmicAlfonzo
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12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/26/2011 10:40:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:19:38 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Jimbo, I'm an anarchist in the truest sense of the word. Roll with it, brutha.

Nice. I'm a Market Anarchist. So, I don't know how "true" or an anarchist I am.
President of DDO
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/26/2011 10:40:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
you need a certain amount of government, but not too much. Somalia = no government but terrible

North Korea= to much government terrible

We need like:
Ron Paul's ideas=good amount of government.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/26/2011 10:41:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:30:56 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:28:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:18:21 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:16:52 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I've heard some minarchists argue that a state monopoly on defense, law, and a vew other services is more efficient and the only way to combat the free rider problem.

I'm not convinced though.

Are you an AnCap now?

I've been ancap for a while (I typically refer to myself as a Market Anarchist, which is virtually the same thing).


Did you think I was a minarchist?

I knew you were either minarchist or ancap. I can't keep track of everyone.

It's all good.

Ya, I came to DDO as a standard conservative, but I have switched to ancap since then.
President of DDO
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/26/2011 10:49:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).

What does anarchy rely on to make it self work? The goodness of people and corporation (non-aggression principle or some sh$t like that).
Are corporations and people naturally good? Hell no.
Therefore, anarchy falls apart.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/26/2011 10:51:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The folks who left in the ancap exodus were really just closet fascists who believed that they would gain power in an ancap situation.

Bunch of hopeless invalids they were.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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12/26/2011 10:54:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lord knuckle, I understand where you are coming from. Anarcho Realism simply accepts the fact that the world is fundamentally anarchistic. An Caps tend to be idealistic, they don't see the obvious.. a state is destined to rise from anarchy.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/26/2011 10:55:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:54:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Lord knuckle, I understand where you are coming from. Anarcho Realism simply accepts the fact that the world is fundamentally anarchistic. An Caps tend to be idealistic, they don't see the obvious.. a state is destined to rise from anarchy.

how is the world fundamentally anarchistic?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/26/2011 10:56:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:49:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).

What does anarchy rely on to make it self work? The goodness of people and corporation (non-aggression principle or some sh$t like that).
Are corporations and people naturally good? Hell no.
Therefore, anarchy falls apart.

What does statism rely on to make it self work? The goodness and the wisdom of the people running the state?

Are the people running the state all knowing and purely good? Hell no.

Therefore, statism falls apart.
President of DDO
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/26/2011 10:58:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:56:37 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:49:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).

What does anarchy rely on to make it self work? The goodness of people and corporation (non-aggression principle or some sh$t like that).
Are corporations and people naturally good? Hell no.
Therefore, anarchy falls apart.


What does statism rely on to make it self work? The goodness and the wisdom of the people running the state?
Statism does not rely on the goodness and wisdom of the people running the state. It simply relies on the people who are running the state.
Are the people running the state all knowing and purely good? Hell no.

Therefore, statism falls apart.
Tell that to every single state in the world. What about all the anarchist countries.... oh wait.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/26/2011 10:59:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:54:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Lord knuckle, I understand where you are coming from. Anarcho Realism simply accepts the fact that the world is fundamentally anarchistic. An Caps tend to be idealistic, they don't see the obvious.. a state is destined to rise from anarchy.

Anarchists like to say no goverment yet anarchy leads to totalitarianism much of the time ex: Cuba
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/26/2011 11:00:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:59:03 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:54:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Lord knuckle, I understand where you are coming from. Anarcho Realism simply accepts the fact that the world is fundamentally anarchistic. An Caps tend to be idealistic, they don't see the obvious.. a state is destined to rise from anarchy.

Anarchists like to say no goverment yet anarchy leads to totalitarianism much of the time ex: Cuba

So what I meant to say was yes a state does arise like you said.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/26/2011 11:00:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:54:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Lord knuckle, I understand where you are coming from. Anarcho Realism simply accepts the fact that the world is fundamentally anarchistic. An Caps tend to be idealistic, they don't see the obvious.. a state is destined to rise from anarchy.

To be honest, I have never heard of anarcho realism. But, if the fundamental principle is the world is anarchistic, then I actually agree with that.

The state rose in a state of anarchy. The state was created by a social consensus based around religion.

It is an emergent institution, like all other institutions. However, it is an institution that I think should be abolished.

And, I do think humans will get to the point where the state no longer necessarily emerges. So, basically, I think that humans will evolve past the state. This idea is bolstered by the fact that states originally formed around Religion.
President of DDO
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/26/2011 11:03:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:58:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:56:37 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:49:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).

What does anarchy rely on to make it self work? The goodness of people and corporation (non-aggression principle or some sh$t like that).
Are corporations and people naturally good? Hell no.
Therefore, anarchy falls apart.


What does statism rely on to make it self work? The goodness and the wisdom of the people running the state?
Statism does not rely on the goodness and wisdom of the people running the state. It simply relies on the people who are running the state.

Yes, it relies on them being able to effectively run entire sectors of economies, comprised with millions of people with different needs and wants.

And, the people in the state are just as irrational and selfish as everyone else. We are much better without a state monopoly on certain sectors.

Are the people running the state all knowing and purely good? Hell no.

Therefore, statism falls apart.
Tell that to every single state in the world. What about all the anarchist countries.... oh wait.

That does not mean that we should not have any anarchistic countries. Plus, the countries with larger states are worse off than those with smaller states, suggesting smaller is the way to go.
President of DDO
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/26/2011 11:06:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 11:00:31 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:54:59 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Lord knuckle, I understand where you are coming from. Anarcho Realism simply accepts the fact that the world is fundamentally anarchistic. An Caps tend to be idealistic, they don't see the obvious.. a state is destined to rise from anarchy.

To be honest, I have never heard of anarcho realism. But, if the fundamental principle is the world is anarchistic, then I actually agree with that.

The state rose in a state of anarchy. The state was created by a social consensus based around religion.


It is an emergent institution, like all other institutions. However, it is an institution that I think should be abolished.

And, I do think humans will get to the point where the state no longer necessarily emerges. So, basically, I think that humans will evolve past the state. This idea is bolstered by the fact that states originally formed around Religion.

I respect your opinion but there is no point arguing as there is no conclusive proof for either side.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/26/2011 11:09:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 11:03:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:58:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:56:37 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:49:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).

What does anarchy rely on to make it self work? The goodness of people and corporation (non-aggression principle or some sh$t like that).
Are corporations and people naturally good? Hell no.
Therefore, anarchy falls apart.


What does statism rely on to make it self work? The goodness and the wisdom of the people running the state?
Statism does not rely on the goodness and wisdom of the people running the state. It simply relies on the people who are running the state.

Yes, it relies on them being able to effectively run entire sectors of economies, comprised with millions of people with different needs and wants.
Ah... you see goodness=/=being able to effectively run a country. The above things that you stated like running economies, are all stimulated by the need for greed, something that humans are very good at.
And, the people in the state are just as irrational and selfish as everyone else. We are much better without a state monopoly on certain sectors.
I'm not arguing for state interference in the economy.
I'm arguing for state interference in justice and societal structure.

Are the people running the state all knowing and purely good? Hell no.

Therefore, statism falls apart.
Tell that to every single state in the world. What about all the anarchist countries.... oh wait.


That does not mean that we should not have any anarchistic countries. Plus, the countries with larger states are worse off than those with smaller states, suggesting smaller is the way to go.

That doesn't mean that anarchy is better than small state. It's a slippery slope fallacy.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/26/2011 11:12:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anarcho Realism is actually my own interpretation of anarchy. It is closely related to ancap, but unlike ancap, it doesn't commit the special pleading fallacy in regards to the state. The state is considered to be a highly influential economic institute, not separate from capitalism. Even a communist state is an economic institution that operates on a capitalistic base. Capitalism itself is a product of anarchy. The difference between anarcho idealist economic views, anx anarcho realist economic view... is that the former doesn't see anarchy as the way things are, while the later sees anarchy as the state of how things are.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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12/26/2011 11:15:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 11:09:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 11:03:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:58:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:56:37 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:49:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).

What does anarchy rely on to make it self work? The goodness of people and corporation (non-aggression principle or some sh$t like that).
Are corporations and people naturally good? Hell no.
Therefore, anarchy falls apart.


What does statism rely on to make it self work? The goodness and the wisdom of the people running the state?
Statism does not rely on the goodness and wisdom of the people running the state. It simply relies on the people who are running the state.

Yes, it relies on them being able to effectively run entire sectors of economies, comprised with millions of people with different needs and wants.
Ah... you see goodness=/=being able to effectively run a country. The above things that you stated like running economies, are all stimulated by the need for greed, something that humans are very good at.

Yes.

And, the people in the state are just as irrational and selfish as everyone else. We are much better without a state monopoly on certain sectors.
I'm not arguing for state interference in the economy.
I'm arguing for state interference in justice and societal structure.

Fair enough. I am arguing for no state at all. But, I see where you are coming from.


Are the people running the state all knowing and purely good? Hell no.

Therefore, statism falls apart.
Tell that to every single state in the world. What about all the anarchist countries.... oh wait.


That does not mean that we should not have any anarchistic countries. Plus, the countries with larger states are worse off than those with smaller states, suggesting smaller is the way to go.

That doesn't mean that anarchy is better than small state. It's a slippery slope fallacy.

True. But, the fact that states exist everywhere does not prove that states are an effective institution.
President of DDO
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/26/2011 11:39:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 11:15:46 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 11:09:41 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 11:03:32 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:58:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:56:37 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:49:05 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 12/26/2011 10:40:28 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If you think that is what you think anarchy is, you are mistaken. Maybe ancom... but not ancap or anarcho realism(which is my anarchistic theory).

What does anarchy rely on to make it self work? The goodness of people and corporation (non-aggression principle or some sh$t like that).
Are corporations and people naturally good? Hell no.
Therefore, anarchy falls apart.


What does statism rely on to make it self work? The goodness and the wisdom of the people running the state?
Statism does not rely on the goodness and wisdom of the people running the state. It simply relies on the people who are running the state.

Yes, it relies on them being able to effectively run entire sectors of economies, comprised with millions of people with different needs and wants.
Ah... you see goodness=/=being able to effectively run a country. The above things that you stated like running economies, are all stimulated by the need for greed, something that humans are very good at.


Yes.



And, the people in the state are just as irrational and selfish as everyone else. We are much better without a state monopoly on certain sectors.
I'm not arguing for state interference in the economy.
I'm arguing for state interference in justice and societal structure.




Fair enough. I am arguing for no state at all. But, I see where you are coming from.




Are the people running the state all knowing and purely good? Hell no.

Therefore, statism falls apart.
Tell that to every single state in the world. What about all the anarchist countries.... oh wait.


That does not mean that we should not have any anarchistic countries. Plus, the countries with larger states are worse off than those with smaller states, suggesting smaller is the way to go.

That doesn't mean that anarchy is better than small state. It's a slippery slope fallacy.

True. But, the fact that states exist everywhere does not prove that states are an effective institution.

It doesn't prove it, but it contributes as a valid point.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."