Total Posts:22|Showing Posts:1-22
Jump to topic:

Ron Paul: Handing the World to China

ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 2:58:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't understand how people can be for Ron Paul's foreign policy! I understand how people would find our presence in certain areas unnecessary or unwanted or even how reducing the number of overseas endeavours would be beneficial to America... in moderation

The reality is if we pull out to the extent Congressman Paul suggests we are going to leave a power vacuum in our wake and who do you think is going to fill that vacuum if not China?
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,042
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:07:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

1. they outsource our jobs
2. it is possible they will become a US threat
3. They take our jobs
4. it is possible that them becoming the super power would hurt us economically
5. they manipulate their currency so it is cheaper to make business there
6. relation here helps them as people go to china cause it's cheap, so I agree we need to act too.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:09:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

You forget that economic freedom trumps societal justice!
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,042
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:10:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:07:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

1. they outsource our jobs

No...WE outsource our own jobs to THEM.

2. it is possible they will become a US threat

Just like it's possible that Uganda will be a threat, or Swaziland.

3. They take our jobs

Then we should be more desirable employees.

4. it is possible that them becoming the super power would hurt us economically

See response to 2. That's the same for all countries.

5. they manipulate their currency so it is cheaper to make business there

So?

6. relation here helps them as people go to china cause it's cheap, so I agree we need to act too.

....what?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,042
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:11:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:09:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

You forget that economic freedom trumps societal justice!

No...respecting China's rights as its own country trumps our right to be World Police.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:13:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

This is a big one. No freedom of religion, no freedom to make family decisions, no freedom of the press, state controlled news etc.

We will be handing power from a liberty/rights based society to a government dominated communist regime.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,042
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:18:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:13:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

This is a big one. No freedom of religion, no freedom to make family decisions, no freedom of the press, state controlled news etc.

We will be handing power from a liberty/rights based society to a government dominated communist regime.

And...where does that mean that we should take action against China? There are plenty of ways to champion human rights without our government saying "We don't like how you're running your country. We're America, and therefore, we're right!"
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:18:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:10:59 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

1. they outsource our jobs

No...WE outsource our own jobs to THEM.

2. it is possible they will become a US threat

Just like it's possible that Uganda will be a threat, or Swaziland.

3. They take our jobs

Then we should be more desirable employees.

4. it is possible that them becoming the super power would hurt us economically

See response to 2. That's the same for all countries.

5. they manipulate their currency so it is cheaper to make business there

So?

6. relation here helps them as people go to china cause it's cheap, so I agree we need to act too.

....what?

I agree that we need to cut costs but their other things (currency manipulation) causes outsourcing jobs.

Yes but does Uganda have nukes? China does and they may not kill us yet (as we run their economy) but it is possible in the future that they will be a threat.

Um why would we want them to take our jobs and be employes?

the manipulation causes point 1

I agreed that we are a problem but their worse and we need to act, and they need to stop.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:21:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:18:22 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:13:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

This is a big one. No freedom of religion, no freedom to make family decisions, no freedom of the press, state controlled news etc.

We will be handing power from a liberty/rights based society to a government dominated communist regime.

And...where does that mean that we should take action against China? There are plenty of ways to champion human rights without our government saying "We don't like how you're running your country. We're America, and therefore, we're right!"

I never said we take action against China, I said that they are next in line for power if we would suddenly decide to go isolationist. All I'm saying is that right now we are the number one power in the world, if we isolate China would be next in line to take that spot and I don't think that would be a good thing.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,042
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:21:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:18:23 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:10:59 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

1. they outsource our jobs

No...WE outsource our own jobs to THEM.

2. it is possible they will become a US threat

Just like it's possible that Uganda will be a threat, or Swaziland.

3. They take our jobs

Then we should be more desirable employees.

4. it is possible that them becoming the super power would hurt us economically

See response to 2. That's the same for all countries.

5. they manipulate their currency so it is cheaper to make business there

So?

6. relation here helps them as people go to china cause it's cheap, so I agree we need to act too.

....what?

I agree that we need to cut costs but their other things (currency manipulation) causes outsourcing jobs.

Yes but does Uganda have nukes? China does and they may not kill us yet (as we run their economy) but it is possible in the future that they will be a threat.

Um why would we want them to take our jobs and be employes?

the manipulation causes point 1

I agreed that we are a problem but their worse and we need to act, and they need to stop.

The point I'm making about then supposedly "taking our jobs" is that, if we want to keep our jobs, we should become more desirable than China.

Okay then: they're manipulating their currency? But what are you actually saying besides "Oh, China MIGHT be a threat in the future, so we should be against them?"
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,042
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:21:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:21:07 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:18:22 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:13:09 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

This is a big one. No freedom of religion, no freedom to make family decisions, no freedom of the press, state controlled news etc.

We will be handing power from a liberty/rights based society to a government dominated communist regime.

And...where does that mean that we should take action against China? There are plenty of ways to champion human rights without our government saying "We don't like how you're running your country. We're America, and therefore, we're right!"

I never said we take action against China, I said that they are next in line for power if we would suddenly decide to go isolationist. All I'm saying is that right now we are the number one power in the world, if we isolate China would be next in line to take that spot and I don't think that would be a good thing.

Ron Paul isn't an isolationist. He's a non-interventionalist.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:26:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ron Paul is a true conservative, a paleoconservative! America First, is his motto!
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:32:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:09:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

You forget that economic freedom trumps societal justice!
China's no fan of private property.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:33:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:21:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:18:23 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:10:59 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

1. they outsource our jobs

No...WE outsource our own jobs to THEM.

2. it is possible they will become a US threat

Just like it's possible that Uganda will be a threat, or Swaziland.

3. They take our jobs

Then we should be more desirable employees.

4. it is possible that them becoming the super power would hurt us economically

See response to 2. That's the same for all countries.

5. they manipulate their currency so it is cheaper to make business there

So?

6. relation here helps them as people go to china cause it's cheap, so I agree we need to act too.

....what?

I agree that we need to cut costs but their other things (currency manipulation) causes outsourcing jobs.

Yes but does Uganda have nukes? China does and they may not kill us yet (as we run their economy) but it is possible in the future that they will be a threat.

Um why would we want them to take our jobs and be employes?

the manipulation causes point 1

I agreed that we are a problem but their worse and we need to act, and they need to stop.

The point I'm making about then supposedly "taking our jobs" is that, if we want to keep our jobs, we should become more desirable than China.

Okay then: they're manipulating their currency? But what are you actually saying besides "Oh, China MIGHT be a threat in the future, so we should be against them?"

few things:

we can't be more desirable with all of the regulations and taxes

Also with their lower currency they will always go to china.

Would rather have a factory in America where you need to pay 8$ minimum wage, follow rules and regulation making you update a lo and making you refine your workers raising costs 20%, and a 50% tax or go to china where you pay the workers equivalent of 3$, no regulations, and taxes are 20% less? You'd go china. So it is a US problem, but their manipulation and other factors make it impossible for us to win.

Also when it comes to security and nukes might is enough of a reason.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:37:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:32:30 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:09:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

You forget that economic freedom trumps societal justice!

China's no fan of private property.

Your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 3:58:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:26:22 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Ron Paul is a true conservative, a paleoconservative! America First, is his motto!

Is that sarcasm, or are you serious? Just saying, Obama also promised change, and hope, which did not come. Also, who cares what his motto is? I wouldn't care if his motto was "Screw America!" if he just had good plans that would work, and could be passed.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 5:10:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Chine will fail, sorry guys, learn your macroeconomics. The massive working population means that they earn a lot of money now, but twenty or thirty years down the line, one of the following is going to happen:

a) China will have to be paying out a lot on social welfare for the OAPopulation, meaning their revenue drops and expenditure rises, a problem with most first world countries now

b) China mass exterminates/leaves to die most of their elderly population in the future, so they don't have to pay out much exppenditure (although the income drop will still exist). They will also most likely be embargoed for such actions, or some extreme non-MAD scenario.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 5:11:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/3/2012 3:37:10 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:32:30 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:09:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:07:55 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:
At 1/3/2012 3:00:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
What's wrong with China again? If you haven't noticed, they're actually a benevolent superpower on the world stage.

*cough*human rights issues*cough*

You forget that economic freedom trumps societal justice!

China's no fan of private property.

Your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning.

The sarcasm in question doesn't function, there's no point being sarcastic about such a thing in this context if China doesn't have substantial economic freedom.

It makes no sense as a response to the "Human rights" issues. China's human rights issues are not the sort of "social justice" (i.e. income equality) that people you are sarcastically imitating think is less valuable than economic freedom or disvaluable. Indeed, China's human rights issues in many ways ARE its lack of economic freedom.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/3/2012 5:19:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The 2 things that always strike me when conservatives criticise Ron Paul's foreign policy is:

1. The cost of maintaining the level of influence in the world the US currently has is anything other than fiscally responsible.

2. Paul gets more donations to his campaign from the military than any other candidate, so obviously they don't agree