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To those who believe in the separation of

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/16/2012 2:31:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, some people will argue that because its this huge deal with shopping and stuff, that its not really a religious holiday.

But, technically, it is a violation of the constitution if you look at it that way.
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Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/16/2012 2:32:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

National tradition and religion, through they may bleed into one another, are distinct.

I hardly consider Santa Claus a deity.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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1/16/2012 2:34:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:32:05 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

National tradition and religion, through they may bleed into one another, are distinct.

I hardly consider Santa Claus a deity.

Religion is not valid, tradition is weak - we wouldn't give the Valentines day off (yet).
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/16/2012 2:36:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:34:54 PM, innomen wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:32:05 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

National tradition and religion, through they may bleed into one another, are distinct.

I hardly consider Santa Claus a deity.

Religion is not valid, tradition is weak - we wouldn't give the Valentines day off (yet).

I don't understand what you meant by this at all. Religion is not valid as a rationale? Well, that's not what I was stating. Tradition is a weak rationale? Then, what is your rationale for having national holidays at all?
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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1/16/2012 2:39:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:36:14 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:34:54 PM, innomen wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:32:05 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

National tradition and religion, through they may bleed into one another, are distinct.

I hardly consider Santa Claus a deity.

Religion is not valid, tradition is weak - we wouldn't give the Valentines day off (yet).

I don't understand what you meant by this at all. Religion is not valid as a rationale? Well, that's not what I was stating. Tradition is a weak rationale? Then, what is your rationale for having national holidays at all?

If we are separating church and state, religion is not valid as a reason for the day off. Tradition is weak, in that Groundhog day is a tradition, should we give them that off?

What would the rationale be? State holidays would be state like - 4th of July, and other patriotic type days would seem appropriate.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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1/16/2012 2:44:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Christmas is necessary because its somewhat like an official break for everyone. If Christmas went by any other name and came from a secular origin, it would still be a necessary period to take off before we start the new year. We shouldn't see it as respect to a religion. We should see it as everyone just wanting a break.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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1/16/2012 2:46:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:31:51 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Well, some people will argue that because its this huge deal with shopping and stuff, that its not really a religious holiday.

But, technically, it is a violation of the constitution if you look at it that way.
Eid isnt a national holiday, neither is the hindu durga Puja, or the jewish rosh hashana. Why are Christians getting special treatment?
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/16/2012 2:46:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:39:05 PM, innomen wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:36:14 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:34:54 PM, innomen wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:32:05 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

National tradition and religion, through they may bleed into one another, are distinct.

I hardly consider Santa Claus a deity.

Religion is not valid, tradition is weak - we wouldn't give the Valentines day off (yet).

I don't understand what you meant by this at all. Religion is not valid as a rationale? Well, that's not what I was stating. Tradition is a weak rationale? Then, what is your rationale for having national holidays at all?

If we are separating church and state, religion is not valid as a reason for the day off. Tradition is weak, in that Groundhog day is a tradition, should we give them that off?

What would the rationale be? State holidays would be state like - 4th of July, and other patriotic type days would seem appropriate.

Okay, so yes, we've established that religion is an inadequate reason.

Tradition is weak on the grounds that there are traditions that exist without corresponding holidays?

How are the 4th of July and other patriotic days not based on tradition?

I always figured the rationale for holidays were that they were days everyone collectively agrees has a strong enough theme to cease all primary national operations in promotion or observance of that theme. That can include the 4th of July, Christmas, Martin Luther King Jr. Day, or Thanksgiving.

Think about it. Is the 4th of July really about patriotism? Or, is it about having barbecues and shooting off or observing fireworks? How often do you salute the flag and cry on the 4th of July? I never have.

It is not nationally ordained that one must observe any theological ideology, much less Christianity, on Christmas. We are not celebrating the birth or death of Christ on Christmas at all. Instead, we are exchanging gifts and spending the day with our families.

On Martin Luther King Jr. Day, no one is any less racist. In fact, there is no special observation for that day at all, and not all institutions observe it.

Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the popular belief that it was some sort of peace coalition between Native Americans and European colonialists. But, that doesn't matter; that day is actually about spending the day with your family eating inordinate amounts of food, most often including Turkey and Pork.

To claim that any holiday is religious, or even ideological, is a weak argument with no substantiation.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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1/16/2012 2:53:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

Hey, if you know why the heck we get MLK day off, I might be able to tell you why we get Christmas but not Valentine's day off.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/16/2012 2:55:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:53:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

Hey, if you know why the heck we get MLK day off, I might be able to tell you why we get Christmas but not Valentine's day off.

I'm willing to bet because it has the potential to become a fck holiday to rival a single day at Mardi Gras.
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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1/16/2012 2:59:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?

Well, workers need time off. Why not give them time off during Christmas, which has become a secular as well as religious holiday? Otherwise, when?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/16/2012 3:39:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The vast majority of people in the US, of any religion, celebrate Christmas/Newtonmas/Saturnalia/Cashmas.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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1/16/2012 4:16:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 3:39:56 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The vast majority of people in the US, of any religion, celebrate Christmas/Newtonmas/Saturnalia/Cashmas.

I don't understand how that's a valid reason. The vast majority of the people don't "celebrate" Memorial Day, but they have it off. More people probably "celebrate" Saint Patrick's Day than Memorial Day.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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1/16/2012 5:05:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:46:50 PM, Ren wrote:
Okay, so yes, we've established that religion is an inadequate reason.

Tradition is weak on the grounds that there are traditions that exist without corresponding holidays?

How are the 4th of July and other patriotic days not based on tradition?

I always figured the rationale for holidays were that they were days everyone collectively agrees has a strong enough theme to cease all primary national operations in promotion or observance of that theme. That can include the 4th of July, Christmas, Martin Luther King Jr. Day, or Thanksgiving.

Think about it. Is the 4th of July really about patriotism? Or, is it about having barbecues and shooting off or observing fireworks? How often do you salute the flag and cry on the 4th of July? I never have.

It is not nationally ordained that one must observe any theological ideology, much less Christianity, on Christmas. We are not celebrating the birth or death of Christ on Christmas at all. Instead, we are exchanging gifts and spending the day with our families.

On Martin Luther King Jr. Day, no one is any less racist. In fact, there is no special observation for that day at all, and not all institutions observe it.

Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the popular belief that it was some sort of peace coalition between Native Americans and European colonialists. But, that doesn't matter; that day is actually about spending the day with your family eating inordinate amounts of food, most often including Turkey and Pork.

To claim that any holiday is religious, or even ideological, is a weak argument with no substantiation.

This is exactly what I would have said, except that it was probably much better put. Christmas may have began strictly as a religious holiday but today it serves a much different purpose as Ren explained. It would be harmful (in my opinion) to remove national recognition from Christmas because it is a day that helps bring family and friends together. That is what life is all about.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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1/16/2012 5:12:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 4:45:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Christmas is hardly a religious holiday so I'd say no.

After all; Jews, and Muslims celebrate Christmas all the time. >.<

The suffix "mas" means holiday or Festival; so Christ-mas would mean Christ's Festival, or Christ's Holiday.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/16/2012 5:16:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 5:12:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 4:45:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Christmas is hardly a religious holiday so I'd say no.

After all; Jews, and Muslims celebrate Christmas all the time. >.<

The suffix "mas" means holiday or Festival; so Christ-mas would mean Christ's Festival, or Christ's Holiday.

Yea, I celebrated christmas as do alot of muslims I know. It's really has nothing to do with christianity anymore and everything to do with consumerism.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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1/16/2012 5:32:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 5:16:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/16/2012 5:12:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 4:45:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Christmas is hardly a religious holiday so I'd say no.

After all; Jews, and Muslims celebrate Christmas all the time. >.<

The suffix "mas" means holiday or Festival; so Christ-mas would mean Christ's Festival, or Christ's Holiday.

Yea, I celebrated christmas as do alot of muslims I know. It's really has nothing to do with christianity anymore and everything to do with consumerism.

But were you raised Muslim, or are you a convert?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/16/2012 5:35:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 5:32:16 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 5:16:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/16/2012 5:12:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 4:45:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Christmas is hardly a religious holiday so I'd say no.

After all; Jews, and Muslims celebrate Christmas all the time. >.<

The suffix "mas" means holiday or Festival; so Christ-mas would mean Christ's Festival, or Christ's Holiday.

Yea, I celebrated christmas as do alot of muslims I know. It's really has nothing to do with christianity anymore and everything to do with consumerism.

But were you raised Muslim, or are you a convert?

My views are...complicated. Let's just leave it at that, lol.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/16/2012 5:38:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 5:12:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 4:45:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Christmas is hardly a religious holiday so I'd say no.

After all; Jews, and Muslims celebrate Christmas all the time. >.<

The suffix "mas" means holiday or Festival; so Christ-mas would mean Christ's Festival, or Christ's Holiday.

The holiday of yuletide and holly -- that's all about Christ?

Explain it to me.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/16/2012 5:51:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 2:23:46 PM, innomen wrote:
Church and state:

Should state and federal workers get Christmas off?

Now I'm guessing that you will say, yes because they'll take it anyway, but is that a valid reason? Can they not take it as a personal day? I know that it was declared as a federal holiday some years ago, but is that really respecting the separation of church and state?:

Christmas means a whole lot more to everyone (including Christians) than merely Christ's incorrect and inaccurate birthday. Please look around during Christmas time. The dominating theme is NOT Christ, it's promoting a time for family's to get to together.

One could just as easily ask Christians why they celibrate Halloween. Are they celibrating ghouls and ghosts, or do they use it as a fun time for children and to promote familial cohesion just like everyone else?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/16/2012 6:00:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 4:16:22 PM, innomen wrote:
At 1/16/2012 3:39:56 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The vast majority of people in the US, of any religion, celebrate Christmas/Newtonmas/Saturnalia/Cashmas.

I don't understand how that's a valid reason. The vast majority of the people don't "celebrate" Memorial Day, but they have it off.
Which means that that reasoning can't be used to have memorial day off. Frankly I think having Memorial Day off is stupid.
It's valid because it makes practical sense-- it gives people the days off they want most.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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1/16/2012 6:30:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 5:38:15 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 5:12:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 4:45:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Christmas is hardly a religious holiday so I'd say no.

After all; Jews, and Muslims celebrate Christmas all the time. >.<

The suffix "mas" means holiday or Festival; so Christ-mas would mean Christ's Festival, or Christ's Holiday.

The holiday of yuletide and holly -- that's all about Christ?

Explain it to me.

Nice how you danced around the word Christmas.

Christmas was established to celebrate Jesus's Birth; In order to make it easy for Pegan converts to remember, and transition to, they placed his celebration on the day of Sol Invictus' festival. Sol Invictus was the Roman Sun God.

St. Nicolas, the catholic saint of Prostitutes, children, merchants, repentant thieves, and, pawnbrokers, is where we get the story of Santa Clause.

St. Nicolas saved some poor girls who were about to be forced into child prostitution, by putting gold in their shoes at night.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/16/2012 7:55:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 6:30:48 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 5:38:15 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 5:12:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/16/2012 4:45:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Christmas is hardly a religious holiday so I'd say no.

After all; Jews, and Muslims celebrate Christmas all the time. >.<

The suffix "mas" means holiday or Festival; so Christ-mas would mean Christ's Festival, or Christ's Holiday.

The holiday of yuletide and holly -- that's all about Christ?

Explain it to me.

Nice how you danced around the word Christmas.

Christmas was established to celebrate Jesus's Birth; In order to make it easy for Pegan converts to remember, and transition to, they placed his celebration on the day of Sol Invictus' festival. Sol Invictus was the Roman Sun God.

St. Nicolas, the catholic saint of Prostitutes, children, merchants, repentant thieves, and, pawnbrokers, is where we get the story of Santa Clause.

St. Nicolas saved some poor girls who were about to be forced into child prostitution, by putting gold in their shoes at night.

I wasn't "dancing" around the word Christmas, I was drawing a correlation between your statement, where you suggest that Christmas must exclusively be about Jesus Christ because the word "Christ" is in the (name and there are religious ties to the observance), and the fact that "yuletide" and "holly" are also used to describe the holiday.

These are terms that are used in our latter day, not 350 A.D.

Now, for your explanation.

Christmas was not "established," it was given a new definition to correspond with social changes at the time. There's another holiday that went through precisely this conversion -- it was called Sol Invictus.

During the winter North of the equator, the sun appears to stop in the sky rather than continue it's usual gradual and consistent crawl across the sky. To ancient Celts, it was a statement from the Sun God that they decided deserved a celebration. They called that celebration Yule, or the Winter Solstice.

Eventually, the Celts were no more, and the foremost civilization in Europe were Greeks and Romans, who replaced Yule with Sol Evictus, which essentially represented the same thing and was celebrated in much the same way (although, Romans were more inclined than other civilizations to accompany such celebrations with bisexual orgies).

Eventually, Romans in power developed a political interest in Christianity, and Sol Evictus was replaced with Christmas. However, the time frame remained the same, the general "Sun/Son/God" theme complete with a three-day period before "resumption" remained the same, and even anachronistic traditions that we can't even determine the definite source, such as Christmas trees and caroling, still exist during "Christmas."

One way or another, to say that Christmas is strictly Christian or has a definite source that is even majority Christian is terribly misguided.

Holidays are nothing but days off distinct from one another due to the traditions that accompany them. We don't have less, because days off are attractive and communal celebrations are necessary for societal cohesion. We don't have more, because it would likely compromise our economic stability.