Total Posts:27|Showing Posts:1-27
Jump to topic:

A Revelation

DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
thett3
Posts: 14,372
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 7:40:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

So what? In the end, isn't all knowledge or logic dependent upon some initial belief, AKA faith?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 7:45:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Can't this be solved by looking the definitions up in a dictionary? Not being sarcastic, but...
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 7:49:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

I had a revelation years ago, and every day I'm reminded of it. I realized years ago, that very few people are logical, honorable, or decent. Most people are illogical, dishonorable, self centered, deceitful, close minded, and indecent. Also people are always fricken looking for disputes.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just sick of people in general.

Funny thing is that is why I started to become a Libertarian; I realized that Anarchy couldn't work because people are Sh** with Cr** filling, so I settled for Minarchy.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 7:53:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

We could really have an entire discussion on freedom. You're just presupposing your own prima facie variety of it.

Regardless, questioning is healthy. Into the armchair!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 7:54:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Yes, Yes you did. Now add social justice in there and all will be fine.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 7:56:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:53:26 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

We could really have an entire discussion on freedom. You're just presupposing your own prima facie variety of it.

Regardless, questioning is healthy. Into the armchair!

I know what I'm doing tomorrow in gym instead of actually "exercising."
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:03:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:54:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Yes, Yes you did. Now add social justice in there and all will be fine.

The two are not reconcilable. Tax harms liberty. Economic freedom harms equality, to give two examples. To someone generally politically consistent it depends on whether one prefers liberty or equality. (Or some other value such as order/culture for fascism)
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:10:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:03:39 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:54:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Yes, Yes you did. Now add social justice in there and all will be fine.

The two are not reconcilable. Tax harms liberty.

What liberty is it harming?

Economic freedom harms equality,

Can you explain what you mean here? Economic freedom to what capacity? How do you define equality?
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:19:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:10:44 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:03:39 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:54:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Yes, Yes you did. Now add social justice in there and all will be fine.

The two are not reconcilable. Tax harms liberty.

What liberty is it harming?

And why is liberty inherently good anyway?

Economic freedom harms equality,

Can you explain what you mean here? Economic freedom to what capacity? How do you define equality?

I think he means equality like the equality OWS is jabbering about; the distribution of wealth pretty equally. Which is not inherently good or evil.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:28:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Freedom is a paradox. If all is free, then none is free because the freedom of one leaves the power to destroy the freedom of another. The Government is the antitheses of freedom, but freedom needs a counterpart to exist in the first place and that is why government is necessary. Anarchism, I don't understand why anyone thinks thats a good idea.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:32:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:54:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Yes, Yes you did. Now add social justice in there and all will be fine.

Why?
President of DDO
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:36:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:28:53 PM, 000ike wrote:
Freedom is a paradox. If all is free, then none is free because the freedom of one leaves the power to destroy the freedom of another. The Government is the antitheses of freedom, but freedom needs a counterpart to exist in the first place and that is why government is necessary. Anarchism, I don't understand why anyone thinks thats a good idea.

Anarchy: the constant struggle to protect what you have.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:37:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:54:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Yes, Yes you did. Now add social justice in there and all will be fine.

Interesting that you don't want to admit that you presuppose quit a bit in your beliefs, too.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:39:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:19:30 PM, UnStupendousMan wrote:

And why is liberty inherently good anyway?

What is this generalized "liberty" to which we're referring?

Is there some underlying suggestion here that our government is fascist or arbitrary? Are we as Americans unable to conduct our everyday lives however we please without undue infringement?

How were your liberties taken today?

I think he means equality like the equality OWS is jabbering about; the distribution of wealth pretty equally. Which is not inherently good or evil.

Well, before we go deeper into "the equal distribution of wealth," what would you say wealth is to begin with? Because, as far as I understand it, "equal distribution of wealth" is a nonsensical statement and OWS protestors are simply indicating social unrest due to economic inequities, which may or may not have to do with the fair dissemination of available resources and ethical/responsible business conduct in consideration of the large numbers of people corporate dealings affect.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:40:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:37:24 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:54:38 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Yes, Yes you did. Now add social justice in there and all will be fine.

Interesting that you don't want to admit that you presuppose quit a bit in your beliefs, too.

Social justice is bullsh*t
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:41:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

So, the question is, rather than attempting to latch onto some ostentatious ideology, what is it that you believe/want?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:42:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:40:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:

Social justice is bullsh*t

...

"So many people are completely tolerant." - Ren
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:43:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:41:25 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

So, the question is, rather than attempting to latch onto some ostentatious ideology, what is it that you believe/want?

I don't latch onto an ideology. It's just easier to describe oneself as a certain thing/one word than to list one's whole belief system.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:43:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:42:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:40:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:

Social justice is bullsh*t

...

"So many people are completely tolerant." - Ren

What crime are we trying to bring justice to?
wealth?
success?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 8:54:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:43:53 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:42:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:40:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:

Social justice is bullsh*t

...

"So many people are completely tolerant." - Ren

What crime are we trying to bring justice to?
wealth?
success?

Exploitation of the vulnerable and weak.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 9:10:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:43:12 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:41:25 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

So, the question is, rather than attempting to latch onto some ostentatious ideology, what is it that you believe/want?

I don't latch onto an ideology. It's just easier to describe oneself as a certain thing/one word than to list one's whole belief system.

Easier, and much more inaccurate.

See: meaningless.

It results in confusion like what you're currently experiencing.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 9:12:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 9:10:34 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:43:12 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:41:25 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

So, the question is, rather than attempting to latch onto some ostentatious ideology, what is it that you believe/want?

I don't latch onto an ideology. It's just easier to describe oneself as a certain thing/one word than to list one's whole belief system.

Easier, and much more inaccurate.

See: meaningless.

It results in confusion like what you're currently experiencing.

Right, except that my belief system shares the axiom of liberty being one of the most desirable things to have.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ren
Posts: 7,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 9:15:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 9:12:07 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/16/2012 9:10:34 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:43:12 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:41:25 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

So, the question is, rather than attempting to latch onto some ostentatious ideology, what is it that you believe/want?

I don't latch onto an ideology. It's just easier to describe oneself as a certain thing/one word than to list one's whole belief system.

Easier, and much more inaccurate.

See: meaningless.

It results in confusion like what you're currently experiencing.

Right, except that my belief system shares the axiom of liberty being one of the most desirable things to have.

What is "liberty?"
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 9:22:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 7:36:08 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I just realized something.

My libertarianism stems from the idea that self-sovereignity and freedom are the most desirable things. However, what I just realize is that I just presuppose those concepts.

Well: if you need me, I'll be reexamining my entire belief set politically...

Basic meta-ethics. You'll get used to it.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/16/2012 10:00:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 8:54:05 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:43:53 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:42:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:40:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:

Social justice is bullsh*t

...

"So many people are completely tolerant." - Ren

What crime are we trying to bring justice to?
wealth?
success?

Exploitation of the vulnerable and weak.

Oh really? How so?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/17/2012 4:21:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/16/2012 10:00:17 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:54:05 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:43:53 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:42:41 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/16/2012 8:40:21 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:

Social justice is bullsh*t

...

"So many people are completely tolerant." - Ren

What crime are we trying to bring justice to?
wealth?
success?

Exploitation of the vulnerable and weak.

Oh really? How so?

In the order of nature, everything is commonly owned by man. The only way one can gain private property from all that public property is through mixing labor with the natural resources or land. However, according to the Lockean Proviso, the only thing that makes this conversion of publicly owned materials morally permissible is the condition that enough and as good is left for everyone else. '

If you need proof that all materials were commonly owned, then refer to this syllogism:
P1 - All people have the right to live
P2 - There are naturally provided materials for which the existence of a human are WHOLLY and DIRECTLY dependent
P3 - All people have the right to those naturally provided materials
C - If one has a right to something, then he has some form of ownership of it.

Corporations essentially plunder and monopolize the worlds natural resources. Stealing water, oil, fruits and other goods from 3rd world countries and redistributing them to the affluent worlds. On our very own ground, one has no access to clean water unless he buys a bottle of mass-produced capped water, a water purification system, or pays a company for water services.

Because of this redistricting of property, it has become an act of coercion and injustice to those who do not have access to these goods, generally the poor, because had this plundering not occurred, all would still be equal in whats provided for them to at least keep alive.

This is why there is an obligation to protect the poor. They are not poor because you foolishly think they are lazy. They are not poor because they enjoy being dependent on others, they are poor because all cannot be rich and people have monopolized goods from what was once all our property.

The anger of communism is derived from this collective theft. The conviction of liberalism is derived to mediate and correct this collective theft.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault