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Why "utopias" Will Never Work.

ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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1/24/2012 6:13:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Utopias such as communism, egalitarianism, the social paradise etc, what ever your idea of utopia is will never work for a simple reason:

people never agree

Now you may think that this is a trivial truism that doesn't really matter but this will be the root cause of every system failure on earth whether it be government or otherwise.

Adam blamed Eve
Cain killed Able
etc

People have never managed to agree since the beginning of time and if people don't agree there will be arguing and infighting.

A utopia will only be possible if everyone agrees on a single idea, if not the seeds of doubt and anger will always be present and will one day ruin any system, even our present day one.

Since no one will ever agree completely on everything such a system will never work and communists and other utopia-ists should abandon their beliefs in the name of reason.
Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
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1/24/2012 6:15:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:13:56 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Utopias such as communism, egalitarianism, the social paradise etc, what ever your idea of utopia is will never work for a simple reason:

people never agree

Now you may think that this is a trivial truism that doesn't really matter but this will be the root cause of every system failure on earth whether it be government or otherwise.

Adam blamed Eve
Cain killed Able
etc

People have never managed to agree since the beginning of time and if people don't agree there will be arguing and infighting.

A utopia will only be possible if everyone agrees on a single idea, if not the seeds of doubt and anger will always be present and will one day ruin any system, even our present day one.

Since no one will ever agree completely on everything such a system will never work and communists and other utopia-ists should abandon their beliefs in the name of reason.

Well utopists are stupid like that. They don't look at sheer logic.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/24/2012 6:16:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The kind of utopias that you are talking about imply a sort of voluntary association coupled with decreased government ruling and more "people ruling". However, a utopia could exist under the pre tense of the government controlling everything and therefore being able to regulate everything that is happening to suit its own needs and desires.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
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1/24/2012 6:17:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:16:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The kind of utopias that you are talking about imply a sort of voluntary association coupled with decreased government ruling and more "people ruling". However, a utopia could exist under the pre tense of the government controlling everything and therefore being able to regulate everything that is happening to suit its own needs and desires.

That is not a utopia.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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1/24/2012 6:18:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:16:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The kind of utopias that you are talking about imply a sort of voluntary association coupled with decreased government ruling and more "people ruling". However, a utopia could exist under the pre tense of the government controlling everything and therefore being able to regulate everything that is happening to suit its own needs and desires.

In theory yes, but once again it would only work if everyone agreed with the government and the only way to get people to agree to such a program would be to break each and every person individually...

almost like hmmm 1984? I'm starting to think that book is your bible... a little concerning.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/24/2012 6:18:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:17:43 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 1/24/2012 6:16:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The kind of utopias that you are talking about imply a sort of voluntary association coupled with decreased government ruling and more "people ruling". However, a utopia could exist under the pre tense of the government controlling everything and therefore being able to regulate everything that is happening to suit its own needs and desires.

That is not a utopia.

Utopia: An imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect

Perfection is subjective.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/24/2012 6:19:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:18:06 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/24/2012 6:16:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The kind of utopias that you are talking about imply a sort of voluntary association coupled with decreased government ruling and more "people ruling". However, a utopia could exist under the pre tense of the government controlling everything and therefore being able to regulate everything that is happening to suit its own needs and desires.

In theory yes, but once again it would only work if everyone agreed with the government and the only way to get people to agree to such a program would be to break each and every person individually...
There is no necessity for anybody to agree with the government because there is nothing to disagree with (if you understand what I'm saying).
almost like hmmm 1984? I'm starting to think that book is your bible... a little concerning.
Perhaps.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
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1/24/2012 6:21:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:18:09 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/24/2012 6:17:43 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 1/24/2012 6:16:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The kind of utopias that you are talking about imply a sort of voluntary association coupled with decreased government ruling and more "people ruling". However, a utopia could exist under the pre tense of the government controlling everything and therefore being able to regulate everything that is happening to suit its own needs and desires.

That is not a utopia.

Utopia: An imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect

Perfection is subjective.

This is not the true utopia defined by non-Government Communists. It is not the "ultimate and wanted" goal of Communism, but it will happen over time once the people give up their rights to the Government.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/24/2012 7:36:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:21:22 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 1/24/2012 6:18:09 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/24/2012 6:17:43 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 1/24/2012 6:16:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The kind of utopias that you are talking about imply a sort of voluntary association coupled with decreased government ruling and more "people ruling". However, a utopia could exist under the pre tense of the government controlling everything and therefore being able to regulate everything that is happening to suit its own needs and desires.

That is not a utopia.

Utopia: An imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect

Perfection is subjective.

This is not the true utopia defined by non-Government Communists. It is not the "ultimate and wanted" goal of Communism, but it will happen over time once the people give up their rights to the Government.

Say what? Why does communism have the exclusive rights over utopias?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
vmpire321
Posts: 4,731
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1/24/2012 7:38:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 6:13:56 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Utopias such as communism, egalitarianism, the social paradise etc, what ever your idea of utopia is will never work for a simple reason:

people never agree

Now you may think that this is a trivial truism that doesn't really matter but this will be the root cause of every system failure on earth whether it be government or otherwise.

Adam blamed Eve
Cain killed Able
etc

People have never managed to agree since the beginning of time and if people don't agree there will be arguing and infighting.

A utopia will only be possible if everyone agrees on a single idea, if not the seeds of doubt and anger will always be present and will one day ruin any system, even our present day one.

Since no one will ever agree completely on everything such a system will never work and communists and other utopia-ists should abandon their beliefs in the name of reason.

Lmao. Make them agree. Simple eh? :)
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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1/24/2012 7:40:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Another reason: no government, no social system, is perfect. Try--hope--pray all you want, there will never be an absolutely perfect government. That's another reason why there won't be a utopia any time soon.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/24/2012 7:50:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just wait till Techno Allah rises from the meaty primordial stew of human advancement.

Humans are just the last step in biological evolution before the more efficient form of evolution takes the reigns.

Robot philosophers of the future will debate amongst themselves over how techolife could evolve from biolife, and the religious droids of the day will dismiss technogenesis as just a shytty unsupported hypothesis.

Oh wait, they aren't going to be like us.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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1/25/2012 2:25:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/24/2012 7:50:15 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Just wait till Techno Allah rises from the meaty primordial stew of human advancement.

Humans are just the last step in biological evolution before the more efficient form of evolution takes the reigns.

Robot philosophers of the future will debate amongst themselves over how techolife could evolve from biolife, and the religious droids of the day will dismiss technogenesis as just a shytty unsupported hypothesis.

Oh wait, they aren't going to be like us.

Get your evolution spouting garbage out of my thread please.

Thanks.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/25/2012 3:00:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Tell it to the robot overlords
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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1/25/2012 4:00:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"When we strive for perfection, we achieve excellence" -- Voltaire
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...