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Democracy, religion, women and equality. Just

GreatestIam
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1/27/2012 3:20:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Democracy, religion, women and equality. Justice demands affirmative action.

Democracy, Religion and Secularism all talks a great line of freedom and equality for all. Our Western democracies and Religions preach this wonderful line; while at the same time forcing our women to walk behind our men and denying women true equality. True democracy and religions are then a sham. We have no working model, political or religious with true equality. We all contribute to this hypocrisy.

We point the finger at the East and their lack of equality with scorn, as we should; while ignoring the fact that we in the West are not doing as we preach or walking our talk. We men have yet to give our women the justice and equality they deserve. Our women have also been delinquent in their social duty by not being more forceful in their demands for equality and justice. Women lead the list of those that have historically been oppressed, thanks mainly to religions, and democracies and religions needs to acknowledge this real fact. They must enact affirmative action to be seen as working toward a truly just society.

It is time for men and women to recognize that what women have suffered enough discrimination and denigration without just cause long enough. We as societies have enacted affirmative action laws for the oppressed before. I think we should admit to the fact we have truly oppressed women and initiate new laws to move equality for women at a faster pace.

Both men and women have ignored basic social justice and we should all be ashamed of ourselves. You will feel this shame if you, male or female, have an ounce of social responsibility. We have a duty not only to ourselves but also to the coming generations.

Justice delayed is justice denied. Justice demands that we act and our women and female children are crying out for equality.

Affirmative action for women should be placed higher our social justice agendas. Both at the political level and religious level.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL
Lordknukle
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1/27/2012 3:22:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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1/27/2012 3:26:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Using your logic, it is just for me to kill a person right now if a close person that I knew was killed. It is flawed. Past occurrences do not account for the future.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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1/27/2012 4:31:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.

Now that you mention it...

http://www.debate.org...
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/27/2012 4:41:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 4:31:57 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.

Now that you mention it...

http://www.debate.org...

Women are de jure equal. Perhaps one can debate whether they are de facto equal, but regulating this gets into effy territory of infringing on others rights, and what constitutes as "equal".
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UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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1/27/2012 4:42:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
GIA: As a general rule, don't type long posts. It's annoying and it decreases the chances that people will read it. Charleslb can tell you all about it.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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1/27/2012 4:45:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 3:20:09 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Democracy, religion, women and equality. Justice demands affirmative action.

Democracy, Religion and Secularism all talks a great line of freedom and equality for all. Our Western democracies and Religions preach this wonderful line; while at the same time forcing our women to walk behind our men and denying women true equality. True democracy and religions are then a sham. We have no working model, political or religious with true equality. We all contribute to this hypocrisy.

We point the finger at the East and their lack of equality with scorn, as we should; while ignoring the fact that we in the West are not doing as we preach or walking our talk. We men have yet to give our women the justice and equality they deserve. Our women have also been delinquent in their social duty by not being more forceful in their demands for equality and justice. Women lead the list of those that have historically been oppressed, thanks mainly to religions, and democracies and religions needs to acknowledge this real fact. They must enact affirmative action to be seen as working toward a truly just society.

It is time for men and women to recognize that what women have suffered enough discrimination and denigration without just cause long enough. We as societies have enacted affirmative action laws for the oppressed before. I think we should admit to the fact we have truly oppressed women and initiate new laws to move equality for women at a faster pace.

Both men and women have ignored basic social justice and we should all be ashamed of ourselves. You will feel this shame if you, male or female, have an ounce of social responsibility. We have a duty not only to ourselves but also to the coming generations.

Justice delayed is justice denied. Justice demands that we act and our women and female children are crying out for equality.

Affirmative action for women should be placed higher our social justice agendas. Both at the political level and religious level.

Do you agree?

No. Look at the problem: "women have suffered enough discrimination and denigration without just cause long enough." Let's just make a syllogism of your points:

P1 - women have suffered enough discrimination and denigration[sic] without just cause long enough.

p2 - Discrimination is bad

C - Therefore, we should stop discrimination

C2 - Therefore, we should have (positive) discrimination.

Forgive me, but that seems wrong.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/27/2012 5:54:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Freedom and equality contradict.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/27/2012 5:55:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
As do justice and "social justice."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/27/2012 6:13:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.

Lulz.

I got a Benny on Jewfro being a spiteful virgin.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/27/2012 6:13:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 4:45:34 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:

C2 - Therefore, we should have (positive) discrimination.


Forgive me, but that seems wrong.

You're right! It is wrong.

Now, go back, review the legislation, and try again.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/27/2012 6:23:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 6:13:04 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.

Lulz.

I got a Benny on Jewfro being a spiteful virgin.

Care to add anything productive other than useless blabbering and name calling?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/27/2012 6:34:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 6:13:04 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.

Lulz.

I got a Benny on Jewfro being a spiteful virgin.

I don't know what LK did to piss you off but quit it. You are accomplishing nothing other then making my wrist work a little bit harder to scroll past you comments.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In a completely free market, I believe there would be gender roles. For instance, sex is appealing to most (if not all) males. So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex. Now, obviously this isn't good, and would discourage women from entering the workforce or get an education. But that doesn't mean that we should have affirmative action, but rather accept ourselves. God forbid someone is inconvenienced by their sexuality/gender.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/27/2012 7:14:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 6:14:05 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/27/2012 5:55:08 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As do justice and "social justice."

Explain.

Justice consists of an individual reaping the consequences of their actions.

"Social justice" consists of an individual reaping whatever it takes to equalize arbitrarily defined groups.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Lordknukle
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1/27/2012 7:16:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex.

YES~!!!!!!!! lol
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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1/27/2012 7:21:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 7:16:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex.

YES~!!!!!!!! lol

I will say, talk about an incentive for people to start their own businesses and create jobs.
Lordknukle
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1/27/2012 7:22:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 7:21:38 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:16:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex.

YES~!!!!!!!! lol

I will say, talk about an incentive for people to start their own businesses and create jobs.

lol. Biggest incentive of all perhaps.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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1/27/2012 7:25:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 7:14:24 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/27/2012 6:14:05 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/27/2012 5:55:08 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As do justice and "social justice."

Explain.

Justice consists of an individual reaping the consequences of their actions.

"Social justice" consists of an individual reaping whatever it takes to equalize arbitrarily defined groups.

What kind of definition is that? Justice is not an individual reaping the consequences of his actions. There are crimes for which no consequences naturally occur, but society imposes a consequence BECAUSE... The observation that Justice is a consequence is a kind of circular logic, to define justice, you must answer the "because".

In which case, if you do give reason for why we impose a consequence,...ultimately rooting in some moral philosophy, there is no contradiction with social justice.

By the way, social justice is a branch of justice granted justification through whatever logic with which you justify justice the original.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
OberHerr
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1/27/2012 8:01:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 7:22:53 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:21:38 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:16:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex.

YES~!!!!!!!! lol

I will say, talk about an incentive for people to start their own businesses and create jobs.

lol. Biggest incentive of all perhaps.

Hm.....I wonder...if demanding sex from a girl during an interview was legal.....would the economy get a sudden boost in business growth?
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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1/27/2012 8:07:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 8:01:12 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:22:53 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:21:38 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:16:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex.

YES~!!!!!!!! lol

I will say, talk about an incentive for people to start their own businesses and create jobs.

lol. Biggest incentive of all perhaps.

Hm.....I wonder...if demanding sex from a girl during an interview was legal.....would the economy get a sudden boost in business growth?

Short term, yes. But there's be later costs imposed due to reoccurring maternity leaves.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/27/2012 8:14:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 8:07:47 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 1/27/2012 8:01:12 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:22:53 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:21:38 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 1/27/2012 7:16:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex.

YES~!!!!!!!! lol

I will say, talk about an incentive for people to start their own businesses and create jobs.

lol. Biggest incentive of all perhaps.

Hm.....I wonder...if demanding sex from a girl during an interview was legal.....would the economy get a sudden boost in business growth?

Short term, yes. But there's be later costs imposed due to reoccurring maternity leaves.

How? If it were legal, you really think that businesses would do this?Jobs might be hard to find, but women would likely not take a job from a company that states that, thus the business loses valuable workers. Plus, if the women doesn't add any value to the company, and you just use her for sex, that's a serious ethics violation.
Open borders debate:
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GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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1/28/2012 12:32:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.

Really?

MSaraTemp Posts: 766

Jan 27, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Ironhold wrote:
As it is, if women are so interested in equality, why are no women begging to sign up with Selective Service?

Being a once 18yr old female myself and the mother of two sons and one daughter, I don't feel that women should be "begging to sign up with Selective Service" but instead seek to have it eliminated for all American male citizens.

Men are required to sign up when they hit 18 or else lose certain federal assistance; women have no such burden.

Correct but it's so much more because it is different for any 50 States and it also effects immigrants too.
To me, it's nothing but a whole heap worth of discrimination against male citizens only.

What happens if an 18-year-old does not register? It's a felony to not register. The punishment includes fines of up to $250,000 or five years in prison.

Are there other ramifications for failing to register? In some states, the Selective Service and drivers license application systems are linked. In Delaware, for example, young men over 18 cannot get a driver's license if they have not registered with the Selective Service. In all 50 states, students who fail to register are not eligible for student loans or college grants, government jobs or federally funded job training. And immigrants who do not register may be denied citizenship.

youngadults.about.com/od/legalissues/a/S...

The above is blantant discrimination against male citizens and in this day and age, I can't believe that this hasn't been Constitutionally challenged.
Maybe it's just me and I've missed [and still missing] something all these years that this is still in effect.
This just doesn't effect males from only 18 to 26 yrs old and end after they turn 27. It effects them for life say if one doesn't have the opportunity to attend college until say 35 yrs old and applies for Financial Aid yet never registered with SS, then they will be denied funds.

Is it right? Or is it downright wrong?

------------------------------
End quote.

It is my hope that discrimination against young males would also stop if we had an open national debate on social rights issues.

You have a point for our laws being the best they have ever been but we still have a ways to go.

Even in my country which is further ahead than yours in such matters. IMO of course.

Regards
DL
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/28/2012 12:56:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 12:32:21 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 1/27/2012 3:23:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Today, women and men equality is at an all-time high. There is no so called discrepancies between men and women anymore.

Really?

MSaraTemp Posts: 766

Jan 27, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Ironhold wrote:
As it is, if women are so interested in equality, why are no women begging to sign up with Selective Service?


Being a once 18yr old female myself and the mother of two sons and one daughter, I don't feel that women should be "begging to sign up with Selective Service" but instead seek to have it eliminated for all American male citizens.




Men are required to sign up when they hit 18 or else lose certain federal assistance; women have no such burden.


Correct but it's so much more because it is different for any 50 States and it also effects immigrants too.
To me, it's nothing but a whole heap worth of discrimination against male citizens only.




What happens if an 18-year-old does not register? It's a felony to not register. The punishment includes fines of up to $250,000 or five years in prison.


Are there other ramifications for failing to register? In some states, the Selective Service and drivers license application systems are linked. In Delaware, for example, young men over 18 cannot get a driver's license if they have not registered with the Selective Service. In all 50 states, students who fail to register are not eligible for student loans or college grants, government jobs or federally funded job training. And immigrants who do not register may be denied citizenship.


youngadults.about.com/od/legalissues/a/S...


The above is blantant discrimination against male citizens and in this day and age, I can't believe that this hasn't been Constitutionally challenged.
Maybe it's just me and I've missed [and still missing] something all these years that this is still in effect.
This just doesn't effect males from only 18 to 26 yrs old and end after they turn 27. It effects them for life say if one doesn't have the opportunity to attend college until say 35 yrs old and applies for Financial Aid yet never registered with SS, then they will be denied funds.

Is it right? Or is it downright wrong?

------------------------------
End quote.

It is my hope that discrimination against young males would also stop if we had an open national debate on social rights issues.

You have a point for our laws being the best they have ever been but we still have a ways to go.

Even in my country which is further ahead than yours in such matters. IMO of course.

Regards
DL

How exactly is sending your name to a government agency for potential (unlikely to happen) conscription discriminatory?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
GreatestIam
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1/28/2012 12:57:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 4:45:34 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:

No. Look at the problem: "women have suffered enough discrimination and denigration without just cause long enough." Let's just make a syllogism of your points:

P1 - women have suffered enough discrimination and denigration[sic] without just cause long enough.

p2 - Discrimination is bad

C - Therefore, we should stop discrimination

C2 - Therefore, we should have (positive) discrimination.


Forgive me, but that seems wrong.

If wrong, then the affirmative action that ended segregation would also be wrong.

Where men are discriminated against as shown in the post just above would also be wrong.

Does that throw a different light on things for you?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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1/28/2012 12:59:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 5:55:08 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As do justice and "social justice."

Many concepts contradict. It is a matter of balance.

Regards
DL
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/28/2012 1:00:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 12:59:21 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 1/27/2012 5:55:08 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As do justice and "social justice."

Many concepts contradict. It is a matter of balance.

So contradiction should be balanced? Fail logic is fail.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
GreatestIam
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1/28/2012 1:04:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/27/2012 6:47:46 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
In a completely free market, I believe there would be gender roles. For instance, sex is appealing to most (if not all) males. So if a woman is interviewing for a job, the person interviewing her could demand sex. Now, obviously this isn't good, and would discourage women from entering the workforce or get an education. But that doesn't mean that we should have affirmative action, but rather accept ourselves. God forbid someone is inconvenienced by their sexuality/gender.

Free market?

How can a free market exist when so much is under government control through the grant and licencing system?

If we would have just accepted what was, women would still not have a vote.

Regards
DL