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The UNunited States of America?

DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.
The Cross.. the Cross.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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2/6/2012 5:44:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Autonomy is distributed between the states and the central government, essentially to reduce the scope and potential tyranny of a federal government ruling over so many so absolutely. This means that state laws may vary.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/6/2012 7:41:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

Most conservatives would claim to be happy about this because it temporarily allows them to tyranically subjugate people in their own states. You seem to wish to take it a step further and hope to goad the U.S. into extending your tyrannical laws across the entire nation.

If you do not wish to have a homosexual marriage, do not get one. Otherwise, I see no reason for you to complain about something that has no impact on you.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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2/6/2012 7:45:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
They are still united under the federal government.

As 000ike said, each state has its own extent of autonomy--this was to safeguard against federal tyranny.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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2/6/2012 8:23:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

It's called the united states because we were a confederation, the Latin root word for confederation being "confoederatio" meaning "union".
We are now a Federation, from the Latin root, "foedero" meaning to ratify an agreement or treaty.

A federation differs from a confederation, because a federation has a union state, which shares soveirgnty with the member states. The union state's authority is limitted to the powers delegated to it by the member states.

A confederation acts more like an alliance, benefitting through trade and common defense.

What you are advocating is a unitary state; like France.
A unitary state is a government where the nation's power is centralized into a single state.

Less centralized power
Confederation
Federation
Unitary
More centralized power
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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2/6/2012 1:42:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 7:41:05 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

Most conservatives would claim to be happy about this because it temporarily allows them to tyranically subjugate people in their own states. You seem to wish to take it a step further and hope to goad the U.S. into extending your tyrannical laws across the entire nation.

If you do not wish to have a homosexual marriage, do not get one. Otherwise, I see no reason for you to complain about something that has no impact on you.

actually it does impact straight people second hand, due to policies regarding marriage, such as filing jointly, adoption, and so on.

It's not illegal for homosexuals to get married, it's just not recognized by the state.

In my opinion the state should stay out of marriage gay or straight.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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2/6/2012 1:53:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

The word you want is disunited, not "un-united." And the answer is that no, the states are united under the federal government, but, as the name implies, this union is composed of a number of different states that conduct their affairs somewhat differently from each other.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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2/6/2012 2:38:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Powers are distributed to the federal, state, and local levels in various areas. There is no incentive for any locality to duplicate another's policies simply in the interest of "uniting" America. In practice, localities are more interested in carrying out their own independent agendas, which is quite the opposite. Each locality is actually encouraged to do this, being an independent "laboratory" for testing new policies.
Rob
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/6/2012 2:47:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

States being both similar and different is called "Federalism."
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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2/6/2012 2:49:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

I always thought the "United" meant they were all different, but still united under one cause.

I never took the "United" to mean "exactly same in all aspects".
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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2/6/2012 3:45:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lol, if you think that homosexuality is the major issue dividing Americans, than you've got another thing coming...
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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/6/2012 4:25:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 3:45:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, if you think that homosexuality is the major issue dividing Americans, than you've got another thing coming...

It is definitely not the major issue, but it is an important issue that needs to be dealt with appropriately.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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2/6/2012 4:39:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 7:41:05 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

Most conservatives would claim to be happy about this because it temporarily allows them to tyranically subjugate people in their own states. You seem to wish to take it a step further and hope to goad the U.S. into extending your tyrannical laws across the entire nation.

If you do not wish to have a homosexual marriage, do not get one. Otherwise, I see no reason for you to complain about something that has no impact on you.

Ummm, the point of this wasn't to discuss gay marriage. He was just using it as an example. He also could have said "since some states use capital punishment and others don't, can we really be called the United States of America?"
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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2/6/2012 4:42:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 4:25:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/6/2012 3:45:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, if you think that homosexuality is the major issue dividing Americans, than you've got another thing coming...

It is definitely not the major issue, but it is an important issue that needs to be dealt with appropriately.

Because with a failing economy whether or not same sex marriages are legal is important.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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2/6/2012 4:59:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 7:41:05 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

Most conservatives would claim to be happy about this because it temporarily allows them to tyranically subjugate people in their own states. You seem to wish to take it a step further and hope to goad the U.S. into extending your tyrannical laws across the entire nation.

If you do not wish to have a homosexual marriage, do not get one. Otherwise, I see no reason for you to complain about something that has no impact on you.

Royal, the point of state rights is to have the people governed by a government that is closer to the people. It also insures that power does not become to centralized and helps curb abuses by the federal government. You may not like Republican policy, and that is your right. However giving the states a bigger share of the power helps democracy, as the people can have a greater effect in governance. It is the opposite of subjugation.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/6/2012 6:07:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 4:42:00 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 2/6/2012 4:25:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/6/2012 3:45:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, if you think that homosexuality is the major issue dividing Americans, than you've got another thing coming...

It is definitely not the major issue, but it is an important issue that needs to be dealt with appropriately.

Because with a failing economy whether or not same sex marriages are legal is important.

It's not a matter of economy, but instead of standing by our principles.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
sadolite
Posts: 8,842
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2/6/2012 6:25:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 7:45:17 AM, DetectableNinja wrote:
They are still united under the federal government.

As 000ike said, each state has its own extent of autonomy--this was to safeguard against federal tyranny.

The key word being "WAS" So much for states autonomy now. If a state doesn't tow the federal line it is punished and browbeaten into submission by extortion. All states will be browbeaten and extorted into accepting gay marriage and any other progressive liberal agenda eventually. This is what liberals perceive as freedom, their way or you are a Nazi bigot. There can be no other point of view other than a progressive liberal point of view. I have finally accepted this and no longer fight it. America deserves everything that they can shove down our throats through the courts and browbeating extortion. As if a referendum means anything anymore. You know where they put the issue up for a vote and then the one side that gets the most votes wins. Long gone are those days. Unless of course it is a progressive liberal issue that wins then democracy works. When it doesn't win, it's off to the courts to have it shoved down your throats anyway.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/6/2012 7:39:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 5:38:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
As many states in the U.S have different laws regarding 'gay' marriage etc.. Can (or should) it really be called the 'united' states when it is so un-united?

Discuss.

We have different states so that people with different views can unite and be strong. It isn't like that is the only issue that divides us.
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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2/6/2012 10:35:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 6:07:20 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/6/2012 4:42:00 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 2/6/2012 4:25:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/6/2012 3:45:48 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, if you think that homosexuality is the major issue dividing Americans, than you've got another thing coming...

It is definitely not the major issue, but it is an important issue that needs to be dealt with appropriately.

Because with a failing economy whether or not same sex marriages are legal is important.

It's not a matter of economy, but instead of standing by our principles.

Fair enough.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/6/2012 10:45:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The word United implies differing groups of people who band together, which are the states ergo the United States. You don't call it United Germany because Germany is one unified body.

The word United implies that they are differing autonomous groups...

Federalism.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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2/7/2012 9:38:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Of course the nation can be "united" without having the same set of laws everywhere. The idea is that genuinely national issues ought to be subject to federal laws, and the rest at the lowest level possible.

For example, states have different laws governing the formation and operation of corporations. That works fine, even though corporation do business in multiple states. Gambling laws differ. Zoning laws differ dramatically. Difference allow for local differences in geography and culture, and provide a method for testing what policies work best, and under what circumstances.

Gay marriage, abortion, and drug legalization are not extremely important issues at the national level. The country is facing economic death from over-regulation. Other issues pale by comparison.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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2/7/2012 9:45:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:45:34 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The word United implies differing groups of people who band together, which are the states ergo the United States. You don't call it United Germany because Germany is one unified body.

The word United implies that they are differing autonomous groups...

Federalism.

Germany is a Federation; a better example would be France, which is a Unitary state.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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2/7/2012 9:47:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 9:45:05 AM, DanT wrote:
At 2/6/2012 10:45:34 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The word United implies differing groups of people who band together, which are the states ergo the United States. You don't call it United Germany because Germany is one unified body.

The word United implies that they are differing autonomous groups...

Federalism.

Germany is a Federation; a better example would be France, which is a Unitary state.

Germany is officially known as the Federal Republic of Germany; Federal replacing the word united, and Germany being used in a geographic sense, much like the word America in the USA.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/7/2012 9:55:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:45:34 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The word United implies differing groups of people who band together, which are the states ergo the United States. You don't call it United Germany because Germany is one unified body.

The word United implies that they are differing autonomous groups...

Federalism.

I have a feeling DACT doesn't know what federalism is.
Marlslove
Posts: 10
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2/8/2012 6:55:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Even though so many people disagree on different things in America,one thing for sure is that when it comes to the serious stuff like freedom, our rights, and war we are always united.
In God We Trust
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/8/2012 6:57:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/8/2012 6:55:59 PM, Marlslove wrote:
Even though so many people disagree on different things in America,one thing for sure is that when it comes to the serious stuff like freedom, our rights, and war we are always united.

Really? Were we united during the Iraq War or the Afghanistan War?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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2/8/2012 7:57:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/8/2012 6:57:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/8/2012 6:55:59 PM, Marlslove wrote:
Even though so many people disagree on different things in America,one thing for sure is that when it comes to the serious stuff like freedom, our rights, and war we are always united.

Really? Were we united during the Iraq War or the Afghanistan War?

Other than fringe groups; yes originally we were. Than people got sick of the war; as would any population, during a prolonged conflict.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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2/8/2012 8:03:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/8/2012 6:55:59 PM, Marlslove wrote:
Even though so many people disagree on different things in America,one thing for sure is that when it comes to the serious stuff like freedom, our rights, and war we are always united.

Probably sarcasm.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/8/2012 8:05:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/8/2012 8:03:30 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 2/8/2012 6:55:59 PM, Marlslove wrote:
Even though so many people disagree on different things in America,one thing for sure is that when it comes to the serious stuff like freedom, our rights, and war we are always united.

Probably sarcasm.:

I hope so... o.0
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