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Who isn't anti-war?

lewis20
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2/27/2012 11:36:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not talking about debating the merits of WWII, but mainly the current wars.
When I was younger growing up in my Republican household and as 911 was happening I supported all the wars, wars with anybody and everybody but it seems with a little research I can't find any justification for any war with another nation.

vids are-
Joe Rogan on war
My buddy Rick Santorum Vs Ron Paul on war
Recent veterans on war, This one was interesting because he touches on the use of racism in war. That is making it easier to kill other people if you think them less human, which I could see being the case.

Also my favorite quote about war-
quote from Hermann Goering, president of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief:
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
vmpire321
Posts: 4,731
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2/27/2012 11:40:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Naturally the common people don't want war:
You sure about that? :)
Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."...

Exactly.
imabench
Posts: 21,220
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2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?
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vmpire321
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2/27/2012 11:45:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?
A person who wants to nuke Iraq/Afghanistan
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/27/2012 11:47:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

I'd say you're pro-war, cause you're basically saying that you would support them if the US were doing a better job.

For some reason the government decided that we were going to start a nation-building process in Iraq/Afghanistan, when we were supposed to just take out Saddam/Osama and get out. Thats why the wars have taken so long. We've been trying to overthrow governments that have existed for decades and replace them with an entirely different system.
imabench
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2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
Posts: 21,220
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2/27/2012 11:49:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:47:52 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

I'd say you're pro-war, cause you're basically saying that you would support them if the US were doing a better job.

For some reason the government decided that we were going to start a nation-building process in Iraq/Afghanistan, when we were supposed to just take out Saddam/Osama and get out. Thats why the wars have taken so long. We've been trying to overthrow governments that have existed for decades and replace them with an entirely different system.

thats where it all went bad
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
BlackVoid
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2/27/2012 11:50:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

So once Saddam was taken out, do you think we should have left?
thett3
Posts: 14,349
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2/27/2012 11:54:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:50:06 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

So once Saddam was taken out, do you think we should have left?

No way dude, add another star to the flag and the great state of Iraq is ours :)

(satire...)
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lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/27/2012 11:57:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

Do some research into our relationship with Iran, Iraq, that area of the world in general for past century and I think you'll find it's a lot more complicated than what you listed and what our govt. told us.
Saddam was crazy, yes, then why did we install him as dictator in the first place?
He gassed his own people, yes, then why didn't we do something at the time? He was using our own Bell helicopter we sold to him and using weapons we subsidized for his war with Iran.
There was no Al-qaeda in Iraq, as a matter of fact Reagan took Iraq off the list of state sponsored terrorism so we could supply him with duel-use technologies.
Like I said it's a lot more complicated and the reasons we invaded are most definitely not those you listed.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/27/2012 11:57:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:54:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:50:06 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

So once Saddam was taken out, do you think we should have left?

No way dude, add another star to the flag and the great state of Iraq is ours :)

(satire...)

Hellz naw man we ned 2 take ovr dat saudi arabia so we cn contrl all dat oil.
Mimshot
Posts: 275
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2/28/2012 12:04:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In 1893 the United States invaded Haiti over the supply of bird sh!t. It's no like any of this is new. There's nothing to see here. Move along.
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
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Mimshot: Yes
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/28/2012 12:16:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also War is a Racket by Smedley Butler is a great read.
Published in 1935, So referring to WWI and right before WWII obviously.
"At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War."

"It has been estimated by statisticians and economists and researchers that the war cost your Uncle Sam $52,000,000,000. Of this sum, $39,000,000,000 was expended in the actual war itself. This expenditure yielded $16,000,000,000 in profits. That is how the 21,000 billionaires and millionaires got that way. This $16,000,000,000 profits is not to be sneezed at. It is quite a tidy sum. And it went to a very few."

"There are 40,000,000 men under arms in the world today, and our statesmen and diplomats have the temerity to say that war is not in the making."

http://www.ratical.org...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 7:08:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:36:27 PM, lewis20 wrote:
I'm not talking about debating the merits of WWII, but mainly the current wars.
When I was younger growing up in my Republican household and as 911 was happening I supported all the wars, wars with anybody and everybody but it seems with a little research I can't find any justification for any war with another nation.

vids are-
Joe Rogan on war
My buddy Rick Santorum Vs Ron Paul on war
Recent veterans on war, This one was interesting because he touches on the use of racism in war. That is making it easier to kill other people if you think them less human, which I could see being the case.

Also my favorite quote about war-
quote from Hermann Goering, president of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief:
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."...

In the USA there has not been a war since wwii.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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2/28/2012 8:49:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

He was though to be developing chemical WMD under Clinton. The main problem is that he didn't coroperate with inspectors.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/28/2012 8:52:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 8:49:08 AM, DanT wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

He was though to be developing chemical WMD under Clinton. The main problem is that he didn't coroperate with inspectors.

Are you saying he didn't have WMDs?

Cause, chemical weapons are considered WMDs.
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Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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2/28/2012 9:24:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
War is ultimately an economic activity. If you are anti-war, then you must necessarily be anti-economics. You cannot both believe you can consume all you want and at the same time believe that your neighbor's land will not be necessary for you to take. Plato taught us this 2500 years ago and since then we've been doing nothing but masturbating on the topic.
Rob
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/28/2012 10:56:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 8:52:59 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/28/2012 8:49:08 AM, DanT wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

He was though to be developing chemical WMD under Clinton. The main problem is that he didn't coroperate with inspectors.

Are you saying he didn't have WMDs?

Cause, chemical weapons are considered WMDs.

He was using chemical weapons against Iran in the 1980's and we couldn't care less at the time.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/28/2012 10:59:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 11:50:06 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

So once Saddam was taken out, do you think we should have left?

No we were trying to build a strong Pro-America state in the middle east that was muslim and could help deter terrorism in the region. We couldn't leave until we were confident we had achieved this goal.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/28/2012 10:59:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 9:24:53 AM, Lasagna wrote:
War is ultimately an economic activity. If you are anti-war, then you must necessarily be anti-economics. You cannot both believe you can consume all you want and at the same time believe that your neighbor's land will not be necessary for you to take. Plato taught us this 2500 years ago and since then we've been doing nothing but masturbating on the topic.

If you are anti-war you have to be anti-economics? not too sure what you're getting at.
What I have suspected is that there are some pro-war people who are just dumb and actually think we are fighting for freedom or something, but also there are some smart pro- war people who, without saying it, recognize we have cheap oil and a high standard of living because we are willing to go take it by force.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/28/2012 11:00:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 10:59:20 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:50:06 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

So once Saddam was taken out, do you think we should have left?

No we were trying to build a strong Pro-America state in the middle east that was muslim and could help deter terrorism in the region. We couldn't leave until we were confident we had achieved this goal.

Iraq was a pro-American state hah
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/28/2012 11:04:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 10:59:47 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/28/2012 9:24:53 AM, Lasagna wrote:
War is ultimately an economic activity. If you are anti-war, then you must necessarily be anti-economics. You cannot both believe you can consume all you want and at the same time believe that your neighbor's land will not be necessary for you to take. Plato taught us this 2500 years ago and since then we've been doing nothing but masturbating on the topic.

If you are anti-war you have to be anti-economics? not too sure what you're getting at.
What I have suspected is that there are some pro-war people who are just dumb and actually think we are fighting for freedom or something, but also there are some smart pro- war people who, without saying it, recognize we have cheap oil and a high standard of living because we are willing to go take it by force.

You do realize that there is a difference between positive and normative economics right? Economics is a science. Saying being anti-war means you have to be anti-economics is like saying being anti-war you have to be anti-psychology or anti-history.

Economics does not teach you can "consume all you want". Instead it teaches the opposite, that resources are scare and there are opportunity costs. It does not teach that it is necessary to conquer, or even desirable to conquer, since the cost of conquering is often worse then the benefits. And war has a net-loss while trade has a net-gain.
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logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 12:41:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 10:59:20 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:50:06 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

So once Saddam was taken out, do you think we should have left?

No we were trying to build a strong Pro-America state in the middle east that was muslim and could help deter terrorism in the region. We couldn't leave until we were confident we had achieved this goal.

LOL you guys are to funny. Is GW still your leader?
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/28/2012 12:51:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 10:59:20 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:50:06 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

So once Saddam was taken out, do you think we should have left?

No we were trying to build a strong Pro-America state in the middle east that was muslim and could help deter terrorism in the region. We couldn't leave until we were confident we had achieved this goal.

Yeah and we saw the results. Hard to build a Pro-American democratic state out of an oppressive terrorist dictatorship.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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2/28/2012 1:28:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 8:52:59 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/28/2012 8:49:08 AM, DanT wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

He was though to be developing chemical WMD under Clinton. The main problem is that he didn't coroperate with inspectors.

Are you saying he didn't have WMDs?

How did you get that from what I said? Jeez everyone is always misrepresenting what I say; I don't think I could be more clear.
Cause, chemical weapons are considered WMDs.

I know that's why I said "chemical WMD"
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/28/2012 4:09:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:28:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/28/2012 8:52:59 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/28/2012 8:49:08 AM, DanT wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:48:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:45:55 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/27/2012 11:43:59 PM, imabench wrote:
i still support the invasions of iraq and afghanistan, i just think the US is not handling these wars well and they are dragging on longer than they need to.

what does that make me exactly?

Why invade Iraq?

saddam was crazy, using chemical weapons on his own people, started several wars, he was feared to having nuclear wmd's, supported terrorism, threatened the US, didnt comply with UN weapons inspectors, the usual stuff

He was though to be developing chemical WMD under Clinton. The main problem is that he didn't coroperate with inspectors.

Are you saying he didn't have WMDs?

How did you get that from what I said? Jeez everyone is always misrepresenting what I say; I don't think I could be more clear.
Cause, chemical weapons are considered WMDs.

I know that's why I said "chemical WMD"

Sorry, sorry, it's hard to tell what people are saying sometimes, at least for me it is.

and this is a subject that I constantly had to tell my friends at school,"Chemical weapons CAN be WMDs!!!!!"

I eventually had to get list of WMDs, which ironically enough, has a type of bullet on it.
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