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Affirmative Action

ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/28/2012 12:03:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

What about the Asians who have to score 150-200 points higher than Caucasians just to have an equal chance of getting into the same high caliber colleges?

Yeah, I just went there. Sounds like affirmative action to me. You cannot have it both ways. Either everyone gets affirmative action or nobody gets it.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/28/2012 12:30:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 12:03:55 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

What about the Asians who have to score 150-200 points higher than Caucasians just to have an equal chance of getting into the same high caliber colleges?

Yeah, I just went there. Sounds like affirmative action to me. You cannot have it both ways. Either everyone gets affirmative action or nobody gets it.

Your profile says your "pro-affirmative action". Then why does the above sound anti-affirmative action?

Yes, it is bad that asians have to score higher then whites. That's racist.
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logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 12:37:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 12:03:55 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

What about the Asians who have to score 150-200 points higher than Caucasians just to have an equal chance of getting into the same high caliber colleges?

Yeah, I just went there. Sounds like affirmative action to me. You cannot have it both ways. Either everyone gets affirmative action or nobody gets it.

I didnt know that was happening. Well I bet they get it done. Lets start the asian American advocacy group and complain that Asians have to associate with too many stupid people so must be compensated.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 1:35:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

In the alternative it is institutionalized affirmation of the racism it claims to oppose. When examined one sees it is clearly an overt implementation of the construct that skin color makes one less able to achieve over the long term.
inferno
Posts: 10,565
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2/28/2012 1:35:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Do you know how may single White females had benefitted from this program.
This is not soley about race. But it is about economic exclusion, gender discrimination, and qualifications. Affirmative action can help those who are in need in spite of their outer apearance.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/28/2012 1:36:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

Even assuming "institutionalized racism", in order to implement affirmative action, the action of affirmative action must be able to accomplish its goals of "correct" things. According to Thomas Sowell "Affirmative Action: an empirical study" it has not. If it were, then we would see the income gap between blacks and the average american to decrease even though it hasn't
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inferno
Posts: 10,565
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2/28/2012 1:37:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 12:03:55 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

What about the Asians who have to score 150-200 points higher than Caucasians just to have an equal chance of getting into the same high caliber colleges?

Yeah, I just went there. Sounds like affirmative action to me. You cannot have it both ways. Either everyone gets affirmative action or nobody gets it.

Everyone cannot get this because racism according to the status quo is excluded to a certain demographic of Whites.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.
inferno
Posts: 10,565
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2/28/2012 1:38:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:36:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

Even assuming "institutionalized racism", in order to implement affirmative action, the action of affirmative action must be able to accomplish its goals of "correct" things. According to Thomas Sowell "Affirmative Action: an empirical study" it has not. If it were, then we would see the income gap between blacks and the average american to decrease even though it hasn't

False. It has. And there are more and more White middle class people falling into that demographic. Obviously you are unaware of this issue among other things.
inferno
Posts: 10,565
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2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/28/2012 1:41:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:36:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

Even assuming "institutionalized racism", in order to implement affirmative action, the action of affirmative action must be able to accomplish its goals of "correct" things. According to Thomas Sowell "Affirmative Action: an empirical study" it has not. If it were, then we would see the income gap between blacks and the average american to decrease even though it hasn't

There are more studies showing it works. Sowell is nuts by the way. The argument is it's not working because the problem is economic, not racial. If that's the case, his argument collapses under its own weight: the problem has multiple causes (including economic ones), and therefore needs a multiple strategy to correct. It makes no sense to discard one of those strategies.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/28/2012 1:41:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:38:27 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:36:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

Even assuming "institutionalized racism", in order to implement affirmative action, the action of affirmative action must be able to accomplish its goals of "correct" things. According to Thomas Sowell "Affirmative Action: an empirical study" it has not. If it were, then we would see the income gap between blacks and the average american to decrease even though it hasn't

False. It has. And there are more and more White middle class people falling into that demographic. Obviously you are unaware of this issue among other things.

http://thesocietypages.org...
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logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/28/2012 1:42:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:35:51 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

In the alternative it is institutionalized affirmation of the racism it claims to oppose. When examined one sees it is clearly an overt implementation of the construct that skin color makes one less able to achieve over the long term.

No. Racism is not simply discrimination, it is discrimination with the purpose of causing harm. Affirmative action is discrimination with the purpose of ending racism. The motives, context, and ends are very different. Discrimination, let me remind you, is not in and of itself a bad thing.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/28/2012 1:44:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:41:09 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:36:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

Even assuming "institutionalized racism", in order to implement affirmative action, the action of affirmative action must be able to accomplish its goals of "correct" things. According to Thomas Sowell "Affirmative Action: an empirical study" it has not. If it were, then we would see the income gap between blacks and the average american to decrease even though it hasn't

There are more studies showing it works. Sowell is nuts by the way. The argument is it's not working because the problem is economic, not racial. If that's the case, his argument collapses under its own weight: the problem has multiple causes (including economic ones), and therefore needs a multiple strategy to correct. It makes no sense to discard one of those strategies.

Show me the studies that show that affirmative action works.
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FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 1:48:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.

LOL yet the actual scientific evidence indicates there is dna for intellect, in fact for males it comes from their momma. go figure 80% of all current college students should ot be there because they are not qualified.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/28/2012 1:48:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:44:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:41:09 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:36:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:31:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 12:02:32 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Black people are our equals! BUT we have to treat them differently because they can't take care of themselves and if you disagree you're RACIST!

That is what affirmative action sounds like to me.

So which is it? Are they equal to whites? Or do they need to be coddled? You can't have both.

Affirmative action is a response to institutionalized racism. In the attempt to create equal opportunities for everyone, government will be forced to ask at some point if there are things preventing people from having equal opportunity. As soon as government does this, it will run up against the harms done against blacks even today. So it responds by correcting the harms. That is what affirmative action is, not racism. Using an empty term like "equality" to call it racism completely evades the fact that equality is a term that can only be understood in a particular historical context, looking at the motives and ends of actions.

Even assuming "institutionalized racism", in order to implement affirmative action, the action of affirmative action must be able to accomplish its goals of "correct" things. According to Thomas Sowell "Affirmative Action: an empirical study" it has not. If it were, then we would see the income gap between blacks and the average american to decrease even though it hasn't

There are more studies showing it works. Sowell is nuts by the way. The argument is it's not working because the problem is economic, not racial. If that's the case, his argument collapses under its own weight: the problem has multiple causes (including economic ones), and therefore needs a multiple strategy to correct. It makes no sense to discard one of those strategies.

Show me the studies that show that affirmative action works.

http://www-personal.umich.edu... -- scroll down to "positive studies."

Also, if it is shown to not have worked, it doesn't mean AA in principle won't work, it means that its practical implementation was flawed.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/28/2012 1:50:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:48:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.

LOL yet the actual scientific evidence indicates there is dna for intellect, in fact for males it comes from their momma. go figure 80% of all current college students should ot be there because they are not qualified.

Wrong again. Scientific evidence says there is evidence for a specific kind of intelligence, the kind tested on the SAT or IQ tests, but there is also overwhelming evidence that those tests are themselves biased towards a particular kind of intelligence. The tests are racist, not AA.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 1:54:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:50:10 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:48:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.

LOL yet the actual scientific evidence indicates there is dna for intellect, in fact for males it comes from their momma. go figure 80% of all current college students should ot be there because they are not qualified.

Wrong again. Scientific evidence says there is evidence for a specific kind of intelligence, the kind tested on the SAT or IQ tests, but there is also overwhelming evidence that those tests are themselves biased towards a particular kind of intelligence. The tests are racist, not AA.

LOL ok, so math is different if your skin color is different, chemistry changes with skin color and MLK was a moron. got it...I support MLK and think we should rise above the color of ones skin and stop using it as excuse for incompetence and failure. But then, no one much care about truth anymore.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/28/2012 2:00:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:54:23 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:50:10 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:48:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.

LOL yet the actual scientific evidence indicates there is dna for intellect, in fact for males it comes from their momma. go figure 80% of all current college students should ot be there because they are not qualified.

Wrong again. Scientific evidence says there is evidence for a specific kind of intelligence, the kind tested on the SAT or IQ tests, but there is also overwhelming evidence that those tests are themselves biased towards a particular kind of intelligence. The tests are racist, not AA.

LOL ok, so math is different if your skin color is different, chemistry changes with skin color and MLK was a moron. got it...I support MLK and think we should rise above the color of ones skin and stop using it as excuse for incompetence and failure. But then, no one much care about truth anymore.

The SAT tests a different kind of intelligence than the Chemistry and Math taught in schools. SATs are also very easy to study for; an entire test prep industry has been created to help the children of the elite prepare for these exams.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 2:02:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 2:00:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:54:23 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:50:10 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:48:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.

LOL yet the actual scientific evidence indicates there is dna for intellect, in fact for males it comes from their momma. go figure 80% of all current college students should ot be there because they are not qualified.

Wrong again. Scientific evidence says there is evidence for a specific kind of intelligence, the kind tested on the SAT or IQ tests, but there is also overwhelming evidence that those tests are themselves biased towards a particular kind of intelligence. The tests are racist, not AA.

LOL ok, so math is different if your skin color is different, chemistry changes with skin color and MLK was a moron. got it...I support MLK and think we should rise above the color of ones skin and stop using it as excuse for incompetence and failure. But then, no one much care about truth anymore.

The SAT tests a different kind of intelligence than the Chemistry and Math taught in schools. SATs are also very easy to study for; an entire test prep industry has been created to help the children of the elite prepare for these exams.

LOL BS the SAT and ACT have both been dumbed down 5 times in the last thirty years. Colleges are businesses, not educational institutions.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/28/2012 2:19:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 2:02:30 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 2:00:39 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:54:23 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:50:10 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:48:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.

LOL yet the actual scientific evidence indicates there is dna for intellect, in fact for males it comes from their momma. go figure 80% of all current college students should ot be there because they are not qualified.

Wrong again. Scientific evidence says there is evidence for a specific kind of intelligence, the kind tested on the SAT or IQ tests, but there is also overwhelming evidence that those tests are themselves biased towards a particular kind of intelligence. The tests are racist, not AA.

LOL ok, so math is different if your skin color is different, chemistry changes with skin color and MLK was a moron. got it...I support MLK and think we should rise above the color of ones skin and stop using it as excuse for incompetence and failure. But then, no one much care about truth anymore.

The SAT tests a different kind of intelligence than the Chemistry and Math taught in schools. SATs are also very easy to study for; an entire test prep industry has been created to help the children of the elite prepare for these exams.

LOL BS the SAT and ACT have both been dumbed down 5 times in the last thirty years. Colleges are businesses, not educational institutions.

Yes, adding an essay section and making sure that one had to actually know vocabulary made the test a lot easier. Everyone from the 1970s was so intelligent, and everyone now is so uneducated and moronic. Those good old days when I could get into the college of my choice because I was part of the "Old Boys' Network" were the paragon of intellectual integrity!
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/28/2012 2:30:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes, adding an essay section and making sure that one had to actually know vocabulary made the test a lot easier. Everyone from the 1970s was so intelligent, and everyone now is so uneducated and moronic. Those good old days when I could get into the college of my choice because I was part of the "Old Boys' Network" were the paragon of intellectual integrity!

Ok royal enough BS....How much teaching experience at the college level have you?
An essay i the easiest form of testing, if the prof wants it to be. As to your 70's comment....nope...the dumb down began in the 1930's. There was a tremendous dumb down in the late 40's so Universities could get all that GI money. The most recent, of which I am aware, was the early eighties when administrations forced professors to pass any who paid tuition. Old Boys....LOL thats east coast nonsense, Ill take my Jesuit degree over Harvard, any day. But yes, there is more to education than "book learnin" and all that is goin fast. I heard an attorney, before the state supreme court say..."ya know, its up to you man, whatever". Should have been dis barred on the spot.

Try this one...Brown v. Board of education is held up as a great opinion. It says that seperate but equal is unconstitutional. This means, in reality, that the traditional black Universities must be inferior. This was not the case. Southern, Grambling, etc were excellent institutions, till the court said they were not as good as Harvard et al.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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2/28/2012 2:40:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Affirmative Action seems to have the mentality of bending the stick the other way to make it straight again. After centuries of being sociologically retarded by racist policies it only makes sense to institute some kind of system that would undo the injustice of the past and bring them up to par with the rest of us that never actually had those disadvantages. My only reason for opposing Affirmative Action is that it doesn't meet its goal...and in any case, a goal like that can never be attained through legislation. To really conquer the statistics and correct the way they were treated in the past, it would require the reformation of ghettos and the availability of educational tools alongside positive encouragement. So, no, Affirmative Action is not unfair in its intentions, but it is both ineffective and counterproductive.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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2/28/2012 2:41:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 1:50:10 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:48:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:44:41 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:42:21 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:39:51 PM, inferno wrote:
At 2/28/2012 1:37:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The issue with the asians is more complicated. First problem is that the standardized tests are already biased, using a racist concept of merit. The tests completely ignore the fact that people will have different merits that are relevant to their particular collective identity. Second issue here is that this is specific to higher education.Universities want to create diversity. For them, that is a legitimate goal for an institution of higher learning. The real problem for asian americans is when they reach the job market, where they fare far worse than caucasians because their test scores can't help them anymore.

That is true to some degree. But in states where this is not a federal law or mandate, this does not apply. There are more Whites in some universities by far simply because AA is not an option to be accepted.

Perhaps it is genetic, and not dependent on race at all.

The overwhelming scientific consensus is that the concept of race has no biological foundation. The fact that people even would believe the problem is genetic is a tribute to the appeal of any argument that can serve as a rationale for a political ideology.

LOL yet the actual scientific evidence indicates there is dna for intellect, in fact for males it comes from their momma. go figure 80% of all current college students should ot be there because they are not qualified.

Wrong again. Scientific evidence says there is evidence for a specific kind of intelligence, the kind tested on the SAT or IQ tests, but there is also overwhelming evidence that those tests are themselves biased towards a particular kind of intelligence. The tests are racist, not AA.

The idea that IQ tests are racist is a totally dicredited idea.
President of DDO
inferno
Posts: 10,565
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2/28/2012 2:42:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 2:40:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
Affirmative Action seems to have the mentality of bending the stick the other way to make it straight again. After centuries of being sociologically retarded by racist policies it only makes sense to institute some kind of system that would undo the injustice of the past and bring them up to par with the rest of us that never actually had those disadvantages. My only reason for opposing Affirmative Action is that it doesn't meet its goal...and in any case, a goal like that can never be attained through legislation. To really conquer the statistics and correct the way they were treated in the past, it would require the reformation of ghettos and the availability of educational tools alongside positive encouragement. So, no, Affirmative Action is not unfair in its intentions, but it is both ineffective and counterproductive.

No. It is effective and productive for those who have advanced themselves accordingly.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/28/2012 2:44:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 2:30:07 PM, logicrules wrote:
Yes, adding an essay section and making sure that one had to actually know vocabulary made the test a lot easier. Everyone from the 1970s was so intelligent, and everyone now is so uneducated and moronic. Those good old days when I could get into the college of my choice because I was part of the "Old Boys' Network" were the paragon of intellectual integrity!

Ok royal enough BS....How much teaching experience at the college level have you?
Just as much as you have.
An essay i the easiest form of testing, if the prof wants it to be.
The Essay Section is the most challenging part of the essay. How about we try it? I will give you the same prompt that I was given last year, and I want you to produce an essay of the same caliber in thirty minutes. I received a perfect score, and I expect no less from you since you obviously belong to an intellectually superior generation.
As to your 70's comment....nope...the dumb down began in the 1930's. There was a tremendous dumb down in the late 40's so Universities could get all that GI money. The most recent, of which I am aware, was the early eighties when administrations forced professors to pass any who paid tuition.
"Paragraph reading was eliminated from the verbal portion of the SAT in 1946, and replaced with reading comprehension, and "double definition" questions were replaced with sentence completions. Between 1946 and 1957 students were given 90 to 100 minutes to complete 107 to 170 verbal questions. Starting in 1958 time limits became more stable, and for 17 years, until 1975, students had 75 minutes to answer 90 questions. In 1959 questions on data sufficiency were introduced to the mathematics section, and then replaced with quantitative comparisons in 1974."

That does not sound like much of a change to me. They just scaled down the number of questions but then also reduced the time.

In addition, the Math section was all multiple choice until the 1994 test changes. That means that you could not simply guess answers, so the test became MORE difficult after your generation.
Old Boys....LOL thats east coast nonsense, Ill take my Jesuit degree over Harvard, any day. But yes, there is more to education than "book learnin" and all that is goin fast. I heard an attorney, before the state supreme court say..."ya know, its up to you man, whatever". Should have been dis barred on the spot.

What? Evidence, please? Also, why should someone be disbarred for saying that? This is just unintelligible nonsense.
Try this one...Brown v. Board of education is held up as a great opinion. It says that seperate but equal is unconstitutional. This means, in reality, that the traditional black Universities must be inferior. This was not the case. Southern, Grambling, etc were excellent institutions, till the court said they were not as good as Harvard et al.
1. They were not as good as Harvard.

2. Brown v. Board was primarily directed at public K-12 schools, and not at colleges.