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Anarcho-Capitalist-Welfare-State

FREEDO
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2/28/2012 9:23:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Obviously, it's a thread by FREEDO.

This is basically just an extension of my Anarcho-Piratism discussion. The theory of Anarcho-Capitalism is that government can be privatized. Ancaps always seem to picture this as a society where the personal and property defense functions of government are overtaken by private agencies in the free-market. Yet the thought never seems to occur to them that the other functions of government (such as taxation) may also naturally arise through private agencies in it's absence. The issue of taxation is what my last thread focused on. I postulated that, in the absence of a state, pirating agencies would arise alongside defense agencies and act in balance with them.

What I'm focusing on this time is the extension of this. What purpose do the pirates serve? Who are the working for? What do they do with their loot?

I see two distinct ways it could manifest itself. Disorderly arising out of statelessness and orderly reverting from a state. The distinction is important because I think they would manifest in slightly different appearances.

Reform is the more likely route so I will start with that. By this mechanism, each of the functions of the state would be individually sold off to different private entities and the market would then be opened up to competition. (That last part is highly important, lest you end up with a Federal Reserve style situation.) Under this model, the state would continue to exist but would become a mostly symbolic organizing figure. It would become organized so that the customer of the pirating agencies (as well as any other government function, like environmental protection and food safety) would be the state. The government is still calling the shots but it is no longer performing the job.

In the version arising from statelessness, there is no organizing factor. Rather, stability is gathered through pacts between the opposing forces of the market for their mutual gain. Both the defense agencies and the pirate agencies become accepted upon general consensus as necessary parts of the market and they officialize the recognition with an agreement to let each other exist and to go about their jobs without killing one another. Any one agency infringing on the agreement will be put in it's place by a collaborative effort of every agency. This creates an organizing identity but it cannot be called a state because there is no monopoly established. It is a decentralized effort, arising from natural incentives, to create stability in the system(possibly after prolonged civil-war). In this model, distinct entities for other government functions besides defense and piracy would probably not exist as in the other model. Rather, the pirate agencies would take over most of the functions through tax incentives. They would steal from certain people for certain reasons to please their constituents. In effect, this would create a sort of democracy. Differing from traditional democracy where the decision of the majority is the one decision that is passed, this form would simply work towards the goal of the majority to an equal degree more than it works towards the goals of the minority, in relation to just how much they are a majority or a minority.

Many people make the mistake of thinking that statelessness results in complete chaos and that stability will never be obtained until a state develops. When in actuality, the state does not cause stability in this form of situation, it is, itself, a result of the forming stability. And a state is not the only possible outcome of forming stability, though it has been in most cases since the rise of the industrial era. Indeed, the state is actually a very weak form of stabilization because it only transforms violence into peace with the threat of violence, as well as propagating patriotism for the manufacturing of war, which is diversion of stability inside a given area outwards towards another.

One thing is sure, NO form of stability will establish itself until there is a manifested general consensus or collective identity of what that form of stability should be, whether a state, an anarchy or some other twisted freedoian ideology he came up with while drunk one day.

Yu jhG art van CAN rEc t JANt erLy am t FG jhart
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
16kadams
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2/28/2012 10:00:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What in hell!
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Contra
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2/29/2012 1:21:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Capitalism requires government.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
FREEDO
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2/29/2012 5:01:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 1:21:14 PM, Contra wrote:
Capitalism requires government.

For as many types of government, there are as many types of Anarchies.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Thaddeus
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2/29/2012 5:04:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 1:21:14 PM, Contra wrote:
Capitalism requires government.

Well that's changed my mind completely*. Capitalism + Government creates an evil worse than many pure statism states.

* NOT! =P Sorry that was rude. I'm in a fluttery mood. Feeling weird, y'know?
DanT
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2/29/2012 5:07:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 1:21:14 PM, Contra wrote:
Capitalism requires government.

no it doesn't.

(n) capitalism, capitalist economy (an economic system based on private ownership of capital)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(n) socialism, socialist economy (an economic system based on state ownership of capital)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

State Capitalism does however require a state, because it incorporates socialism.

(n) state capitalism (an economic system that is primarily capitalistic but there is some degree of government ownership of the means of production)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

(n) state socialism (an economic system in which the government owns most means of production but some degree of private capitalism is allowed)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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2/29/2012 5:15:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Anarcho-Capitalist-Welfare-State" makes no sense.

"Anarcho-Capitalist-Welfare-State" literally means "a government system where the means of production is privately owned, and the government provides economic assistance, and there is no government"
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Contra
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2/29/2012 5:28:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Capitalism Requires Government:

-Property Rights
-Limited Liability Laws
-Law and Order
-Bankruptcy Protection
-Patents and Copyrights
-Stable Money Supply
-Banking Regulation and Insurance
-Commercial Transaction Laws
-Corporate Charters
-Trade Agreements and Laws

Plus, our Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate Commerce. With no regulation, the "free" market economy leads to:

-Unsafe/ineffective products
-Poverty
-Lack of income mobility
-Environmental damage
-Economic bubbles
-Harm to Workers
-Corporate Theft and Fraud
-Dishonest sales/ advertising practices
-Monopolies

As we know, the private sector can't create an infrastructure. Why would the private sector do this if if was unaffordable and unprofitable?
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
FREEDO
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2/29/2012 5:44:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 5:15:11 PM, DanT wrote:
"Anarcho-Capitalist-Welfare-State" makes no sense.

"Anarcho-Capitalist-Welfare-State" literally means "a government system where the means of production is privately owned, and the government provides economic assistance, and there is no government"

Words have more than one meaning.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
DanT
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2/29/2012 5:50:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 5:28:53 PM, Contra wrote:
Capitalism Requires Government:

-Property Rights
That does not require governments. One can only property, without government. Government only protects someone's property, without government, people must protect their own property.
Mountain lions have hunting territory, which they must constantly defend against other predators, who intrude on their property rights. They mark it with their sent, much like the vikings use to stake claims with ruins, when they discover a new land.

-Limited Liability Laws
That's not needed for Capitalism, that's needed for corporatism

-Law and Order

That's not capitalism, that's society in general. That would be an argument against anarchy in general, not just anacho-capitalism.

-Bankruptcy Protection

Not required for capitalism

-Patents and Copyrights

Not required for capitalism, that's required for monopolies.

-Stable Money Supply

Money is a substitute for valuables. Some cultures originally used shells than moved to using gold. Japan, started by using rice.

Without money people will resort back to bartering and trading material goods.

-Banking Regulation and Insurance

Regulation is not required for capitalism.

Bankers, and Insurance brokers do not require government.

-Commercial Transaction Laws

Not required for capitalism.

-Corporate Charters

Again that's corporatism not capitalism

-Trade Agreements and Laws


Laws are not required for capitalism, and companies can make their own agreements.

Plus, our Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate Commerce. With no regulation, the "free" market economy leads to:

-Unsafe/ineffective products
-Poverty
-Lack of income mobility
-Environmental damage
-Economic bubbles
-Harm to Workers
-Corporate Theft and Fraud
-Dishonest sales/ advertising practices
-Monopolies


The constitution only gives them he power to regulate interstate, and international commerce. An example would be a uniform law prohibiting a certain import.
It did not give the federal government the power to regulate industries, that was a power reserved for the states, via the 10th amendment.

As we know, the private sector can't create an infrastructure. Why would the private sector do this if if was unaffordable and unprofitable?

Scenario 1
Say a NJ Computer Company sold a computer to everyone in their area, so they hire a Construction Company to build a bridge over the Delaware River, so they could sell to people in Pennsylvania.

Scenario 2
Say a NJ Computer Company now has so many competitors, profit has been limited for that area, so they hire a Construction Company to build a bridge over the Delaware River, so they could sell to people in Pennsylvania.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Contra
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2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Property rights:

With Gov't, they are protected, as well as legally defended. With no gov't, you can't have legally protected property rights.

Limited Liability Laws:
Makes investors more likely to lend and invest in businesses.

Bankruptcy Protection
Without it, many more people would be discouraged from becoming an entrepreneur. Protects participants in the market economy.

Patent Rights and Copyrights
Without these, innovation would take a huge blow. Why would an inventor sell it if others could just copy it or make the same and sell the identical product? With the same name?

Money supply
I don't want to live in an Amish paradise.

Banking Regulation
To reduce economic bubbles, derivatives and credit default swaps, as well as other securities need to be regulated so they are less harmful, and big banks don't scam consumers (predatory lending, etc.)

With no banking insurance, bank runs would kill off many banks.

Commerical Transaction
Makes businesses confident that they can trade over a distance.

The constitution only gives them he power to regulate interstate, and international commerce.

The power to regulate interstate commerce.

Infrastructure

Did a company build a road? A telecommunications grid? An electric grid? The bigger question is - did they ever do it voluntarily?
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
FREEDO
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2/29/2012 6:14:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is a fallacy think property would not exist without a state-sponsored right to it. Healthcare exists without the same. Privatizing the postal service does not destroy mail.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Contra
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2/29/2012 6:27:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:14:31 PM, FREEDO wrote:
It is a fallacy think property would not exist without a state-sponsored right to it. Healthcare exists without the same. Privatizing the postal service does not destroy mail.

It would be less protected. Anyways, is your profile pic of Stephen Colbert?
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
FREEDO
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2/29/2012 6:33:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:27:40 PM, Contra wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:14:31 PM, FREEDO wrote:
It is a fallacy think property would not exist without a state-sponsored right to it. Healthcare exists without the same. Privatizing the postal service does not destroy mail.

It would be less protected. Anyways, is your profile pic of Stephen Colbert?

Saint Colbert
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
DanT
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2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
Property rights:

With Gov't, they are protected, as well as legally defended. With no gov't, you can't have legally protected property rights.

Again, it's not a requirement of capitalism, for government t protect their property.

Limited Liability Laws:
Makes investors more likely to lend and invest in businesses.

Still doesn't make it a requirement of capitalism
Bankruptcy Protection
Without it, many more people would be discouraged from becoming an entrepreneur. Protects participants in the market economy.

Tell that to the entrepreneurs before Bankruptcy prtection
Patent Rights and Copyrights
Without these, innovation would take a huge blow. Why would an inventor sell it if others could just copy it or make the same and sell the identical product? With the same name?

First they have to reverse engineer it. Again, before copyright laws there were inventors.

Money supply
I don't want to live in an Amish paradise.

>.< Than trade shells, beads, or gold.

Banking Regulation
To reduce economic bubbles, derivatives and credit default swaps, as well as other securities need to be regulated so they are less harmful, and big banks don't scam consumers (predatory lending, etc.)


A.) you are assuming the customers won't switch banks
B.) still not needed for capitalism

With no banking insurance, bank runs would kill off many banks.

Why can't you grasp the difference between want and need?

Commerical Transaction
Makes businesses confident that they can trade over a distance.

Want =/= need

The constitution only gives them he power to regulate interstate, and international commerce.

The power to regulate interstate commerce.


You a parrot now?

Infrastructure

Did a company build a road? A telecommunications grid? An electric grid?
Yes

The bigger question is - did they ever do it voluntarily?

They did it because they were hired to do it.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Contra
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2/29/2012 6:43:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
They did it because they were hired to do it.

Hired by the government.

Your Capitalist beliefs are more traditional than mine.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
DanT
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2/29/2012 7:02:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:43:34 PM, Contra wrote:
They did it because they were hired to do it.

Hired by the government.

Your Capitalist beliefs are more traditional than mine.

Not just the government. Private companies also hire other companies for those things as well.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Starcraftzzz
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2/29/2012 7:11:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
Property rights:

With Gov't, they are protected, as well as legally defended. With no gov't, you can't have legally protected property rights.

Again, it's not a requirement of capitalism, for government to protect their property.
Considering capitalism and free markets are void of government interference the most extreme version of capitalism is one were government does not protect property or people.

At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
Bankruptcy Protection
Without it, many more people would be discouraged from becoming an entrepreneur. Protects participants in the market economy.

Tell that to the entrepreneurs before Bankruptcy prtection
Do you mean the ones who didnt beomce entrepreneurs because they were not protected or the ones who tried and ended up bankrupt?

At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
Banking Regulation
To reduce economic bubbles, derivatives and credit default swaps, as well as other securities need to be regulated so they are less harmful, and big banks don't scam consumers (predatory lending, etc.)
A.) you are assuming the customers won't switch banks
Hm so in a capitalists ideal society we must all suffer through fraud, banking crises and massive recessions.

At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
With no banking insurance, bank runs would kill off many banks.

Why can't you grasp the difference between want and need?
When you can grasp the idea that people dont want to go through bank runs, depression fraud, and abuse
DanT
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2/29/2012 7:30:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 7:11:41 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
Property rights:

With Gov't, they are protected, as well as legally defended. With no gov't, you can't have legally protected property rights.

Again, it's not a requirement of capitalism, for government to protect their property.
Considering capitalism and free markets are void of government interference the most extreme version of capitalism is one were government does not protect property or people.

At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
Bankruptcy Protection
Without it, many more people would be discouraged from becoming an entrepreneur. Protects participants in the market economy.

Tell that to the entrepreneurs before Bankruptcy prtection
Do you mean the ones who didnt beomce entrepreneurs because they were not protected or the ones who tried and ended up bankrupt?


You need to read more history books. You are completely ignorant when it comes to history.
At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
Banking Regulation
To reduce economic bubbles, derivatives and credit default swaps, as well as other securities need to be regulated so they are less harmful, and big banks don't scam consumers (predatory lending, etc.)
A.) you are assuming the customers won't switch banks
Hm so in a capitalists ideal society we must all suffer through fraud, banking crises and massive recessions.

Not what I said. If you want me to refute the need for government regulation of capitalism, make a thread. The topic of this thread is "can capitalism exist without government", and your points are irrelevant.

At 2/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, DanT wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:06:13 PM, Contra wrote:
With no banking insurance, bank runs would kill off many banks.

Why can't you grasp the difference between want and need?
When you can grasp the idea that people dont want to go through bank runs, depression fraud, and abuse

Again, if you want me to discuss this, make a thread. I'm not going to go out of my way to refute a irrelevant point.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Zetsubou
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3/1/2012 9:13:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In order for capitalism to function you require property rights and codified guaranteed liberties, the rule of law essentially. The legislative and judiciary are institutions of government. You cannot have courts in anarchy for there is no government ergo you cannot have functional capitalism in anarchy.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Contra
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3/1/2012 9:53:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ancaps at worst support a privatized judicial system (*I think I just got a little sick typing that).
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Reasoning
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3/2/2012 12:09:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 1:21:14 PM, Contra wrote:
Capitalism requires government.

Which is why we are leftists and you are a reactionary apologist for capitalism.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Lasagna
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3/2/2012 8:36:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I tend to agree that capitalism requires government. And yes, even in an Ancap society we'd end up full-circle with government and indeed welfare. The private sector would create the public sector all over again to deal with the natural externalities of the free market and all the self-interested actors within it.

Things are the way they are now because they cannot be any other way in our current state. Either we will be forced out of our current path through disaster (most likely) or we will adapt our culture to a new way of life before that, which I would predict would be Ancom. This "utopia" would become the normal way of life because it is the most sustainable setup to live in harmony with our surroundings and each other. Once we adapt it, we would not see it as utopia anymore as there would be many challenges yet to face.
Rob
Danielle
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3/2/2012 8:45:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 5:50:13 PM, DanT wrote:
Government only protects someone's property, without government, people must protect their own property.

No, government's are needed to recognize something as "property" in the first place.
President of DDO
Danielle
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3/2/2012 8:49:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 8:36:20 AM, Lasagna wrote:
I tend to agree that capitalism requires government. And yes, even in an Ancap society we'd end up full-circle with government and indeed welfare. The private sector would create the public sector all over again to deal with the natural externalities of the free market and all the self-interested actors within it.

An-caps acknowledge that you need a government; what they are opposed to is the State - that is, a monopoly on force and judiciary practices imposed upon even those who do not consent to it. I don't know what you mean about the public vs. private sector in this example, tbh.
President of DDO
DanT
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3/2/2012 5:19:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 8:45:12 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/29/2012 5:50:13 PM, DanT wrote:
Government only protects someone's property, without government, people must protect their own property.

No, government's are needed to recognize something as "property" in the first place.

You swim in the bay, and find a shell you really like. You take that shell home, and it becomes yours. The government does not know you have the shell, and did not recognize it as yours, but the shell is yours none the less. You recovered it from the bay, it belongs to you.

You trade the shell for a piece of gum, that gum belongs to you. The government doesn't know you have gum, the government didn't approve the transaction, but the gum is yours.

Your boat becomes lost at sea, and you discover a uncharted island, you build your home on that island from the wood found on said island. That island belongs to you, your home is there, your family (who was on your boat) lives there, you found the island. The government does not know you found a island, the government did not approve you owning the island, but the island is yours.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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3/2/2012 5:21:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 5:44:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/29/2012 5:15:11 PM, DanT wrote:
"Anarcho-Capitalist-Welfare-State" makes no sense.

"Anarcho-Capitalist-Welfare-State" literally means "a government system where the means of production is privately owned, and the government provides economic assistance, and there is no government"

Words have more than one meaning.

than how do you define Anarcho-Statism?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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3/2/2012 6:58:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 8:49:09 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/2/2012 8:36:20 AM, Lasagna wrote:
I tend to agree that capitalism requires government. And yes, even in an Ancap society we'd end up full-circle with government and indeed welfare. The private sector would create the public sector all over again to deal with the natural externalities of the free market and all the self-interested actors within it.

An-caps acknowledge that you need a government; what they are opposed to is the State - that is, a monopoly on force and judiciary practices imposed upon even those who do not consent to it. I don't know what you mean about the public vs. private sector in this example, tbh.

I mean if we theoretically eliminated the public sector, as Ancaps propose, they would only just create a state, which would essentially end up being - guess what - the public sector. Would it be different because of no "monopoly?" I seriously doubt it. Good luck creating a private judiciary that competes with other judiciaries, and so on and so forth. Kind of takes the wind out of the sails of the decisions they come to when you can just go around them :P

Hey sir, my first amendment right protects me from being arrested for protesting! That's too bad, we use a different judiciary to interpret the laws! Now take this nightstick deep into your a55 you little &*^%$&*(&*(!
Rob