Total Posts:21|Showing Posts:1-21
Jump to topic:

Political Isms and their meaning

DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 11:56:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If one wants to know the true "meaning" of a word, one must look both at the definition and the etymology. The Definition narrowly explains the basic concept behind the meaning, while etymology gives an explanation as to the development of the meaning.
Take for example, "socialism"; socialists don't just push for a socialist economy, they also push for other issues. The nature of those issues can be explained by the etymology.

Etymologies are not just the root word, but due to character limits I will have to settle for such, and explain the development in the discussion, when and if it comes up.

I will address the 4 main political Isms; Fascism, Conservatism, Progressivism, and Libertarianism. Those all all I have enough character space for.

Fascism

definition
(n) fascism (a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government)

etymology
fascio + -ismo from fascis + -ismos

[Italian] (n) fascis ( a bundle, a sheaf, a bunch, a beam, or a league)
[Italian] (suffix) -ismo (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #1 (the doctrine of a collective)

[Latin] (n) fascis ( a bundle, a packet, a package, a parcel, a burden, a load, a bundle of rods with an ax, or a high office)
[Greek] (suffix) -ismos (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #2 (the doctrine of a collective under a high office)

Conservatism

definition
(n) conservatism (a political or theological orientation advocating the preservation of the best in society and opposing radical changes)

etymology
conserve + -ative + -ism from conservare + -ata + -ivus + -ismos

[English] (v) conserve (keep in safety and protect from harm, decay, loss, or destruction)
[English] (suffix) -ative (of, related to, or associated with the thing specified)
[English] (suffix) -ism (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #1 (the doctrine relating to preservation)

[Latin] (v) conservare (To cherish, to treasure, to keep, to preserve, to retain, to conserve, to hold, or to save. )
[Latin] (suffix) -ata (Used to form words describing the action of a verb, or of a type of person)
[Latin] (suffix) -ivus (providing a sense of the verb having happened)
[Greek] (suffix) -ismos (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #2 (the doctrine of people who has cherished and preserved something)

Progressivism

definition
(n) progressivism (the political orientation of those who favor progress toward better conditions in government and society)

etymology
progress + -ive + ism from progressus + -ivus + -ismos

[English] (n) Progress (gradual improvement or growth or development)
[English] (suffix) -ive (signifying relating to, belonging to, tending to, or of the nature of)
[English] (suffix) -ism (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #1 (the doctrine relating to change)

[Latin] (n) progressus (to advance or proceed)
[Latin] (suffix) -ivus (providing a sense of the verb having happened)
[Greek] (suffix) -ismos (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #2 (the doctrine of continued advancement)

Libertarianism

definition
(n) libertarianism (an ideological belief in freedom of thought, speech and action)

etymology

liberty + -arian + -ism from liberalis + -arius + -ismos

[English] (n) liberty (immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority)
[English] (suffix) -arian (a believer in or advocate of something)
[English] (suffix) -ism (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #1 (the doctrine advocating immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority)

[Latin] (n) liberalis (Of or pertaining to freedom, bountiful, generous, dignified, honorable, or befitting a freedman)
[Latin] (suffix) -arius (denoting an agent of use)
[Latin] (suffix) -ismos (the doctrine of)

etymological meaning #2 (the doctrine of people who are free and prosperous)

------------------

With the limited character space I have left, let me point out;

Right Wing Fascism = Nationalism
Left Wing Fascism = Socialism

Right Wing Libertarianism = Classic Liberalism
Left Wing Libertarianism = Anarchism

Collectivist Conservatism = Traditional-Conservatism
Individualist Conservatism = Liberal-Conservatism

Collectivist Progressivism = Populism
Individualist Progressivism = Social-Liberalism
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 1:09:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 11:56:59 AM, DanT wrote:
If one wants to know the true "meaning" of a word, one must look both at the definition and the etymology. The Definition narrowly explains the basic concept behind the meaning, while etymology gives an explanation as to the development of the meaning.
Take for example, "socialism"; socialists don't just push for a socialist economy, they also push for other issues. The nature of those issues can be explained by the etymology.

Etymologies are not just the root word, but due to character limits I will have to settle for such, and explain the development in the discussion, when and if it comes up.

Meaning is simply how the word is used in the language. Language is not stagnant, it fluctuates according to the needs of the individuals in a society. It's a fallacy to search out a "true meaning" behind how the word is simply used in the ever-changing landscape that is language. Etymologies are only useful from a historical standpoint.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 1:10:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 1:09:03 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/10/2012 11:56:59 AM, DanT wrote:
If one wants to know the true "meaning" of a word, one must look both at the definition and the etymology. The Definition narrowly explains the basic concept behind the meaning, while etymology gives an explanation as to the development of the meaning.
Take for example, "socialism"; socialists don't just push for a socialist economy, they also push for other issues. The nature of those issues can be explained by the etymology.

Etymologies are not just the root word, but due to character limits I will have to settle for such, and explain the development in the discussion, when and if it comes up.

Meaning is simply how the word is used in the language. Language is not stagnant, it fluctuates according to the needs of the individuals in a society. It's a fallacy to search out a "true meaning" behind how the word is simply used in the ever-changing landscape that is language. Etymologies are only useful from a historical standpoint.

Thank you. This.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 4:02:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 1:09:03 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/10/2012 11:56:59 AM, DanT wrote:
If one wants to know the true "meaning" of a word, one must look both at the definition and the etymology. The Definition narrowly explains the basic concept behind the meaning, while etymology gives an explanation as to the development of the meaning.
Take for example, "socialism"; socialists don't just push for a socialist economy, they also push for other issues. The nature of those issues can be explained by the etymology.

Etymologies are not just the root word, but due to character limits I will have to settle for such, and explain the development in the discussion, when and if it comes up.

Meaning is simply how the word is used in the language.
Not true

No it's not how a word is used, it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Take for example the term "socialist party", they push for economic socialism, as defined by the term "socialism", but socialist parties differ on political stances not related to economics. One thing that remains the same is the thinking behind their stances. That line of thinking is a collectivist line of thinking, regarding communal interdependence.

Language is not stagnant, it fluctuates according to the needs of the individuals in a society.

Never said it was. Since language is not stagnant, one must look at both the current definition and etymology, to fully grasp the concept of the ideology, or philosophy. History is important to understanding the present.

It's a fallacy to search out a "true meaning" behind how the word is simply used in the ever-changing landscape that is language.

That depends on what you mean by "true meaning", "true meaning" can be used in several ways. The way I use it, it means "a full understanding of the meaning, and how the meaning came into being"

Etymologies are only useful from a historical standpoint.

and history is important to understanding the present. History is not irrelevant just because it's in the past.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 4:55:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The meaning of a word is independent of its etymology. Naturally, a definition would retain elements from the word's etymology but it is rarely a literal take from them.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 5:25:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lexicographers collect examples of a word in the context of it's use. They then derive the meaning from the usage. That's how dictionaries are made.

Etymologies are often interesting and informative, but they do not determine meaning. Try to explain "flammable" and "inflammable" from their derivations. They mean the same thing.

I think modern leftism is most akin to theocracy. They view the job of the state is to provide extremely detailed lists of rules as to how you must conduct your life or business. Want to work in heath care? Check out a 2700 page law translated into an expected 140,000 pages of rules. You must obey.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 6:43:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 4:55:02 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The meaning of a word is independent of its etymology. Naturally, a definition would retain elements from the word's etymology but it is rarely a literal take from them.

1.) Etymology =/= root word
2.) I said you have to look at both the definition and the etymology.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 6:50:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 6:43:03 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 4:55:02 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The meaning of a word is independent of its etymology. Naturally, a definition would retain elements from the word's etymology but it is rarely a literal take from them.

1.) Etymology =/= root word
So... what are you getting at?
2.) I said you have to look at both the definition and the etymology.
Ah, but you see we don't. We have definitions for a reason. Etymology is only useful for popular knowledge and lexicography.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:01:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Meaning is simply how the word is used in the language.
Not true

No it's not how a word is used, it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Take for example the term "socialist party", they push for economic socialism, as defined by the term "socialism", but socialist parties differ on political stances not related to economics. One thing that remains the same is the thinking behind their stances. That line of thinking is a collectivist line of thinking, regarding communal interdependence.

...Which is a product of the language game in use. If you haven't read Wittgenstein I wouldn't really expect you to get this, and I'm just saying this because you focus so much on language and what the term "really means" that I just had to call you on it. One can easily be a socialist in only an economic sense.


Never said it was. Since language is not stagnant, one must look at both the current definition and etymology, to fully grasp the concept of the ideology, or philosophy. History is important to understanding the present.


The etymology has nothing to do with it. If "chair" meant "bird" 1,000 years ago what does that mean? It would mean nothing because "chair" has its own meaning now. Maybe "chair" will be mailbox in another 1,000 years. There is no singular essence of "chair" that the term ties back to metaphysically, it's entirely us using language to determine reality.

That depends on what you mean by "true meaning", "true meaning" can be used in several ways. The way I use it, it means "a full understanding of the meaning, and how the meaning came into being"

What is a full understanding of the meaning? A full understanding would be realizing that it's use in the language IS its meaning, and past definitions are basically irrelevant.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:02:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 5:25:25 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Lexicographers collect examples of a word in the context of it's use. They then derive the meaning from the usage. That's how dictionaries are made.


definitions are narrow descriptions of the meaning.

Etymologies are often interesting and informative, but they do not determine meaning. Try to explain "flammable" and "inflammable" from their derivations. They mean the same thing.


in- + flame + -able

"in-" comes from the old English "in-" from the old English "in" from the old Norse root word "i", meaning "in", "into", or "during"

"Flame" comes from the Anglo-Norman "flambe" from the Latin root word "flamma", meaning "fire", or "flame"

"-able" comes from the middle English "-able" from the old French "-able", from the Latin root "-abilis", meaning "able" or "worthy to be".

Flammable's etymological meaning is "able to catch fire"
Inflammable's etymological meaning is "able to burst into flames"

I think modern leftism is most akin to theocracy. They view the job of the state is to provide extremely detailed lists of rules as to how you must conduct your life or business. Want to work in heath care? Check out a 2700 page law translated into an expected 140,000 pages of rules. You must obey.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:03:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:00:23 PM, logicrules wrote:
There you go again....just makin stuff up.

there you go again, being a troll
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:03:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified

Please explain how etymologies as well as definitions make up this intended message and better yet, explain how important the etymology is in determining such a"message that is intended or expressed or signified".
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:06:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:03:16 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:00:23 PM, logicrules wrote:
There you go again....just makin stuff up.

there you go again, being a troll

Naw, the truth hurts, doesnt it. Narcissists never get that they are incorrect, and actually hate having it pointed out. If they got it bad they end up in prison.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:08:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:01:56 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Meaning is simply how the word is used in the language.
Not true

No it's not how a word is used, it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Take for example the term "socialist party", they push for economic socialism, as defined by the term "socialism", but socialist parties differ on political stances not related to economics. One thing that remains the same is the thinking behind their stances. That line of thinking is a collectivist line of thinking, regarding communal interdependence.

...Which is a product of the language game in use. If you haven't read Wittgenstein I wouldn't really expect you to get this, and I'm just saying this because you focus so much on language and what the term "really means" that I just had to call you on it. One can easily be a socialist in only an economic sense.


Not once did I utter the words "really means"


Never said it was. Since language is not stagnant, one must look at both the current definition and etymology, to fully grasp the concept of the ideology, or philosophy. History is important to understanding the present.


The etymology has nothing to do with it. If "chair" meant "bird" 1,000 years ago what does that mean? It would mean nothing because "chair" has its own meaning now. Maybe "chair" will be mailbox in another 1,000 years. There is no singular essence of "chair" that the term ties back to metaphysically, it's entirely us using language to determine reality.


Chair never meant bird. Furthermore root word =/= etymology. If "chair" meant "bird" 1,000 years ago, than there would be countless words in between, which is what I suggest you look at, rather than the root.


That depends on what you mean by "true meaning", "true meaning" can be used in several ways. The way I use it, it means "a full understanding of the meaning, and how the meaning came into being"

What is a full understanding of the meaning? A full understanding would be realizing that it's use in the language IS its meaning, and past definitions are basically irrelevant.

Definitions are not the full meaning. Definitions are the front door, and the meaning is the house; would you judge a house based on the front door?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:09:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:06:45 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:03:16 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:00:23 PM, logicrules wrote:
There you go again....just makin stuff up.

there you go again, being a troll

Naw, the truth hurts, doesnt it. Narcissists never get that they are incorrect, and actually hate having it pointed out. If they got it bad they end up in prison.

wait, so your a narcissist?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:13:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:09:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:06:45 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:03:16 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:00:23 PM, logicrules wrote:
There you go again....just makin stuff up.

there you go again, being a troll

Naw, the truth hurts, doesnt it. Narcissists never get that they are incorrect, and actually hate having it pointed out. If they got it bad they end up in prison.

wait, so your a narcissist?

See, you just can not help proving others correct......that is essential narcissistic disorder.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:13:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:03:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified

Please explain how etymologies as well as definitions make up this intended message and better yet, explain how important the etymology is in determining such a"message that is intended or expressed or signified".

The past is always important in understanding the present.

The definitions help us understand the present meaning, and the etymology helps us understand how the present meaning came into being.

Just like the study of human evolution helps us understand human genetics and behavior, so does the study of the evolution of words help us understand why we use the words how we do.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:41:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:13:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:03:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified

Please explain how etymologies as well as definitions make up this intended message and better yet, explain how important the etymology is in determining such a"message that is intended or expressed or signified".

The past is always important in understanding the present.

The definitions help us understand the present meaning, and the etymology helps us understand how the present meaning came into being.

Just like the study of human evolution helps us understand human genetics and behavior, so does the study of the evolution of words help us understand why we use the words how we do.

take for example libertarian

The Latin "liberalis + -arius" means "an agent of freedom and prosperity"

The English "liberty + -arian" means "one who advocates immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority"

The English "Libertarianism" means "an ideological belief in freedom of thought, speech and action"

The etymology helps us understand the present meaning, even though it had a different definition.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:42:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:41:56 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:13:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:03:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified

Please explain how etymologies as well as definitions make up this intended message and better yet, explain how important the etymology is in determining such a"message that is intended or expressed or signified".

The past is always important in understanding the present.

The definitions help us understand the present meaning, and the etymology helps us understand how the present meaning came into being.

Just like the study of human evolution helps us understand human genetics and behavior, so does the study of the evolution of words help us understand why we use the words how we do.

take for example libertarian

The Latin "liberalis + -arius" means "an agent of freedom and prosperity"

The English "liberty + -arian" means "one who advocates immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority"

The English "Libertarian" means "an ideological belief in freedom of thought, speech and action"

The etymology helps us understand the present meaning, even though it had a different definition.

meant to say libertarian not libertarianism
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/10/2012 7:44:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 7:42:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:41:56 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:13:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/10/2012 7:03:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
it's the message that is intended or expressed or signified

Please explain how etymologies as well as definitions make up this intended message and better yet, explain how important the etymology is in determining such a"message that is intended or expressed or signified".

The past is always important in understanding the present.

The definitions help us understand the present meaning, and the etymology helps us understand how the present meaning came into being.

Just like the study of human evolution helps us understand human genetics and behavior, so does the study of the evolution of words help us understand why we use the words how we do.

take for example libertarian

The Latin "liberalis + -arius" means "an agent of freedom and prosperity"

The English "liberty + -arian" means "one who advocates immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority"

The English "Libertarian" means "an advocate of freedom of thought, speech and action"

The etymology helps us understand the present meaning, even though it had a different definition.

meant to say libertarian not libertarianism

meant to say "an advocate of" not "an ideological belief in"
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle