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The Cap N' Trade aka KILL N' TAX

ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 9:37:53 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is probably STUPIDEST Unofficial Tax ever! Even If Global Warming is True this WILL NOT HELP!! If the Ozone layer is already ripped then it will not help taxing us and destroying our economy, WE can not change a deteriorating world. We can not pollute BUT breathing and driving to work doesn't affect the already deteriorating world. Everyone will pay an extra $3,000 a year, EACH PERSON!! We will lose 2 million jobs and bring in 1 million NEW GOVERNMENT jobs. You have got to be kidding me! This is insanity, Why Kill ourselves and allow the Ruling class to destroy your lives! Call your Congressman and Senators and get this out of here!!
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 10:22:49 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
To note, I don't know much about Obama's plans to initiate whatever system it is that he is implementing.

Cap and trade isn't quite as bad as you're making it sound though. The system is a little cumbersome but it can work. Do you even know how it works? http://www.americanprogress.org...

It rewards companies that show an initiative to cut their emissions, and businesses that show progress on this front can actually earn more money through selling off of their carbon permits to other companies. It works with the free trade and competitive system, and can even work between states (ie., California reduces its emissions, it can sell permits to Texas), generating even more revenue there.

This will raise prices on products, I have no doubt. But, companies that show initiative and intend to stay successful will follow the guidelines - their prices will drop down. Besides, out of the revenue expected to the government from the cap and trade system, ".... Approximately 10 percent of this revenue should be allocated to help offset costs to businesses and shareholders of affected industries." This should help drive down costs as well.

Don't be afraid of it.
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 11:10:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
It is Completely unnecessary.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 11:12:16 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 11:10:37 AM, ClayMeister wrote:
It is Completely unnecessary.

Suggest another way that companies and reduce pollution, have pressure to reduce pollution, and not have prices raised.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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6/29/2009 11:14:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
please explain to me what is going on.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 11:25:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
It is a waste of time, money, work-power, and overall EVERYTHING. It takes away people's freedom, it gives the government all the power and destroys jobs( and in doing so, destroys lives). This is a Scam, even if Global Warming (or whatever the lie is called) were true, this wouldn't help it because if there is a hole in the ozone layer, taxing and taking away freedom does what again? This is as BIG as I make it out to be, but you will make it look subtle, and thats what destroy lives. Obama and others like him need to follow what they preach.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 11:26:38 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I have to say, the "Heritage Group" seems to be completely missing the point, especially with this one link: http://blog.heritage.org...

Yes, the reality is that a lot of that will have the prices raised, but the point is that the United States is supposed to ween off of supplies that pollute and will have costs raised. Natural gas is one that you could probably argue, but gas, heating oil and electricity is no surprise. I mean, really now - do they open their ears on one side, close it on the other?
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 11:31:11 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm not sure what we can do with the waste of fossil fuels, but this will and can not work, because it takes away everyones freedom and destroys lives, so the government can have all the power and money. So actually it accomplishes what THEY want and the ruling class decides what to do, so it's fine to destroy 2 million or more jobs, every year, and tax an extra $3,000 each person, not family, person. There are other ways to 'preserve the resources', but inevitably the earth will die, it is fact, so stop crying about it.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 11:34:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 11:25:00 AM, ClayMeister wrote:
It is a waste of time, money, work-power, and overall EVERYTHING. It takes away people's freedom, it gives the government all the power and destroys jobs( and in doing so, destroys lives). This is a Scam, even if Global Warming (or whatever the lie is called) were true, this wouldn't help it because if there is a hole in the ozone layer, taxing and taking away freedom does what again? This is as BIG as I make it out to be, but you will make it look subtle, and thats what destroy lives. Obama and others like him need to follow what they preach.

It is a BIG issue, but I think you're getting way too worked up over it. I'm not a personal fan of the cap and trade system, but I know that it isn't quite as bad as you're making it out to be.

The hole in the o-zone doesn't even matter to me - it has always been there, you know. But, pollution in cities, the cleanliness of our food, air and water supply for ourselves and our children does concern me, not to mention the limited energy supplies that we're currently using.

What do you think is more harmful - reduction of the use of limited energy supplies and a shift to renewable at the cost of new taxes and etc., or the complete loss of all those limited energy supplies and the collapse of modern society as we know it?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 11:35:52 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 11:31:11 AM, ClayMeister wrote:
There are other ways to 'preserve the resources', but inevitably the earth will die, it is fact, so stop crying about it.

Of course the Earth will eventually "die." But I think it is better to prevent that death, the loss of our energy resources and everything else until much, much much farther in the future.
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 11:43:17 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
See you only look at those two options. This option will destroy lives as well. I did not know your stance on Global Warming so i addressed that as well. We can stop pollution without taxing ourselves to destruction, this is what it is. We can put nuclear waste off into space, which has been done and can be done more, we can bury it underground. First of all, Wind Power doesn't do anything. Solar Power is probably the coolest thing ever, not because we can save the planet or anything like that, but because like you said, " save our children's resources," which I do care about as well. We can invest in better things but they take a while to make and perfect, they are very expensive, and we SHOULD NOT FORCE PEOPLE TO DO WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO. This is the heart of the problem, Tyranny. yes, we need to tell them and aware them of the problem but not force them. This is the problem.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 11:45:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yes, preservation s good, I'm not denying that, why not preserve our dollars and freedoms in the process.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 11:53:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
See, the Government is SO desperate to take your freedoms that they are trying to use the environment as a scare tactic into getting you to complete desperation. They have to have a emissions permit, WHAT!!? Are you kidding, that doesn't work you up at all. They can only use so much energy and then they are capped, They are paying for their energy leave them alone! They become STRICTER over time, allowing less and less pollution, UNTIL the ultimate reduction goal is met, No....no, no infringements of rights there. So whats next a personal emissions card where you can only go so far, and then you have to pay for more credits? This is Tyranny, and if you don't see that, then you and I are screwed.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 12:09:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 11:43:17 AM, ClayMeister wrote:
See you only look at those two options. This option will destroy lives as well. I did not know your stance on Global Warming so i addressed that as well. We can stop pollution without taxing ourselves to destruction, this is what it is. We can put nuclear waste off into space, which has been done and can be done more, we can bury it underground. First of all, Wind Power doesn't do anything. Solar Power is probably the coolest thing ever, not because we can save the planet or anything like that, but because like you said, " save our children's resources," which I do care about as well. We can invest in better things but they take a while to make and perfect, they are very expensive, and we SHOULD NOT FORCE PEOPLE TO DO WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO. This is the heart of the problem, Tyranny. yes, we need to tell them and aware them of the problem but not force them. This is the problem.

The problem is that people sometimes do need to be forced, otherwise they won't do it. For instance, freedoms need to be forced upon those that don't wish to grant freedoms to certain groups. Their freedom to deny others freedom is being oppressed, is it not? Should we forget about giving rights and freedoms to others then?

To say that we should "respect everyone's freedom" is a noble cause, but sometimes you have to force things that will restrict some freedoms. Cap and trade isn't a tyrannical idea - it is just an idea that the government has put forward to help reduce emissions.

Companies themselves aren't going to risk profits in order to reduce emissions, and a lot of people are afraid of jeopardizing their money in order to influence companies to reduce emissions. The government comes in and says that they're doing this, it will benefit in the long run, and sorry about your "freedom" to pollute, but this needs to be done.

This is unlike torture or wiretapping, neither of which are effective and needed, yet the government forces it upon people anyways. That is the kind of restricted freedom I will fight against.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/29/2009 12:30:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
So you'll fight against restrictions only if they are designed to be imposed on criminals. If everyone loses the freedom it's okay ;).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 12:47:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 12:30:25 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
So you'll fight against restrictions only if they are designed to be imposed on criminals. If everyone loses the freedom it's okay ;).

I fight against restrictions that are ineffective. If torture was effective and was limited to last use, I could see why the government would use it. But, do I agree with it morally? Not at all.

Same with warrantless* wiretapping. It is ineffective and a waste - why have it?
Wiretapping actual criminals with sufficient evidence and a warrant is fine by me.

If the cap and trade system is implemented ineffectively and is only a tax grab, I would fight against it. Why use something that is inefficient in order to pad the pockets of our elected representatives?
But, cap and trade has had some success and if implemented correctly and efficiently, it can help reduce emissions. It also helps generate revenue for the government to spend on the soaring debt, as well as their healthcare initiatives. It also creates jobs - government jobs maybe, but jobs none the less.

Like you R_R, I would fight against an unjust, unneeded tax. We just differ on whats needed and unneeded.

* I forgot to put "warrantless" in the last post, sorry for the confusion.
ClayMeister
Posts: 37
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6/29/2009 3:37:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The debt we have, we have to pay that back. We HAVE to pay that back, so the Government taking MORE money from our ALREADY debt hands, is doing what again? It's making US more powerless and THEM more powerful. So it IS okay to forcefully oppose your will on the majority? Really? That is very interesting? and yet water-boarding was done to three men, 100's of times, and stopped an attack on the U.S? Hm... thats bad though, interesting? I ask you, do you live in the U.S? if you live in Canada or Great Britain why do you believe this will help, when your cameras( only in Great Britain so far) have infra red lighting to see if your using energy at night? Taking away the majority's rights to help the ruling class is wrong! I don't care if you say it is, for it is Tyranny. Cap N' Trade is a problem that will hurt more then help, It is unneeded and will not fix anything. Except! Getting this country deeper in debt shoving it to the Government. Obama thinks its his money, but the truth is its ours as well and his family's.
As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 3:55:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 3:37:16 PM, ClayMeister wrote:
The debt we have, we have to pay that back. We HAVE to pay that back, so the Government taking MORE money from our ALREADY debt hands, is doing what again? It's making US more powerless and THEM more powerful.

Who is "them" and how does giving the government more money, cutting down the debt and deficit, make the United States less powerful, and "them" more powerful?

So it IS okay to forcefully oppose your will on the majority? Really? That is very interesting?

When the majority is either too ignorant or too selfish to do what is beneficial for the entirety of the country's citizens, then the will should be imposed. Examples; abolishing slavery, Roe v. Wade, Medicare, taxes, law, etc. The problem is that it needs to be beneficial and effective in order for the reasoning to pass, at least in my mind.

Example: a tax is implemented for infrastructure funds, but it never makes it and instead only lines the pockets of politicians. That is wrong.

Another example: a law comes in to allow same-sex couples to marry, which gives the rights to a certain minority that didn't have the right before, despite it being against the wishes of a majority. That is right.

and yet water-boarding was done to three men, 100's of times, and stopped an attack on the U.S?

Lol, three men? Even if that was true, do you think that after the first hundred or so sessions, the interrogators would have realized, "hey, maybe this isn't working?"

Taking away the majority's rights to help the ruling class is wrong!

It is wrong, I agree. I never said anything about the "ruling class" though, have I?

Except! Getting this country deeper in debt shoving it to the Government. Obama thinks its his money, but the truth is its ours as well and his family's.

I somehow think that the more revenue included into the government's coffers, the less debt there will be. I don't think Obama thinks it is his money too; he probably believes that it is the American citizen's money, and that money should go towards building something worth while that will be beneficial to citizens.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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6/29/2009 4:17:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
IMO:
=Carbon Dioxide is not a real pollutant
=Cap and Trade will have virtually no effect on climate

So, there can be no justification for it (other than a means for government revenue).
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 4:26:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 4:17:50 PM, wjmelements wrote:
IMO:
=Carbon Dioxide is not a real pollutant
=Cap and Trade will have virtually no effect on climate

So, there can be no justification for it (other than a means for government revenue).

If that is found to be true, then I would agree. But, cap and trade also deals in other pollutants as well, I believe.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/29/2009 4:30:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 4:26:16 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/29/2009 4:17:50 PM, wjmelements wrote:
IMO:
=Carbon Dioxide is not a real pollutant
=Cap and Trade will have virtually no effect on climate

So, there can be no justification for it (other than a means for government revenue).

If that is found to be true, then I would agree. But, cap and trade also deals in other pollutants as well, I believe.

It was tried in Europe. It didn't work there, it won't work here.
http://online.wsj.com...
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/29/2009 4:34:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 4:30:51 PM, Nags wrote:
It was tried in Europe. It didn't work there, it won't work here.
http://online.wsj.com...

I've heard of that, and I believe it more or less. I'm personally interested in looking at a carbon tax, but I don't know enough about the subject to really say what is best.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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6/29/2009 7:06:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 4:30:51 PM, Nags wrote:
At 6/29/2009 4:26:16 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/29/2009 4:17:50 PM, wjmelements wrote:
IMO:
=Carbon Dioxide is not a real pollutant
=Cap and Trade will have virtually no effect on climate

So, there can be no justification for it (other than a means for government revenue).

If that is found to be true, then I would agree. But, cap and trade also deals in other pollutants as well, I believe.

It was tried in Europe. It didn't work there, it won't work here.
http://online.wsj.com...

Nonsense! When you repeat old policies, you can expect an entirely different result. You're just some sort of bitter American who values his wallet over the polar bears. Selfish, logical you!
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/30/2009 7:32:50 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/29/2009 7:06:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 6/29/2009 4:30:51 PM, Nags wrote:
At 6/29/2009 4:26:16 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/29/2009 4:17:50 PM, wjmelements wrote:
IMO:
=Carbon Dioxide is not a real pollutant
=Cap and Trade will have virtually no effect on climate

So, there can be no justification for it (other than a means for government revenue).

If that is found to be true, then I would agree. But, cap and trade also deals in other pollutants as well, I believe.

It was tried in Europe. It didn't work there, it won't work here.
http://online.wsj.com...

Nonsense! When you repeat old policies, you can expect an entirely different result. You're just some sort of bitter American who values his wallet over the polar bears. Selfish, logical you!

It is always possible to do things differently than what Europe had done. There is "learning from your mistakes" and "improving the system" and all of that silly stuff.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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6/30/2009 11:14:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Americas willingness to assist the Earths death has always confused us in Europe.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/30/2009 11:16:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/30/2009 11:14:44 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Americas willingness to assist the Earths death has always confused us in Europe.

Please explain further.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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6/30/2009 4:22:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/30/2009 11:16:59 AM, Nags wrote:
At 6/30/2009 11:14:44 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Americas willingness to assist the Earths death has always confused us in Europe.

Please explain further.

Perhaps they are wistful for a return to Feudalism.