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Best Pro-Choice Arguments

Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 8:11:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I have done extensive research on the issue of abortion, and I have come to the conclusion that it is wrong in every case, save one. That is, to save the life of the mother when both she and the fetus would die.

I call you, pro-choicers, to give the very best, thought-provoking, hard-core, serious arguments for abortion out there. I want no wimpy arguments.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/1/2009 8:13:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Violates a woman's right to choose what to do with her body, and as such anything dependent upon her body to live.

There, done and over with.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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7/1/2009 8:17:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:11:23 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
I have done extensive research on the issue of abortion, and I have come to the conclusion that it is wrong in every case, save one. That is, to save the life of the mother when both she and the fetus would die.

I call you, pro-choicers, to give the very best, thought-provoking, hard-core, serious arguments for abortion out there. I want no wimpy arguments.

Quality of life ... what if it physically disables her, or forces her to live her life in tremendous pain?

I would say that life and physical health count, personally.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/1/2009 8:26:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:23:28 PM, Nags wrote:
Best Pro-Life Argument:

--Because my religion says so.

Isn't that the best argument for any situation?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/1/2009 8:26:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:23:28 PM, Nags wrote:
Best Pro-Life Argument:

--Because my religion says so.

That's not legitimate. There is nothing in the bible about governments banning abortion.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 8:28:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:13:43 PM, Volkov wrote:
Violates a woman's right to choose what to do with her body, and as such anything dependent upon her body to live.

I said no wimpy arguments!

I'll deal with it anyway. To start off, a fetus is a human. If it is a human, then it is a person. If it is a person, then the mother is responsible for the fetus, as it is her child. End of argument.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 8:35:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:17:44 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Quality of life ... what if it physically disables her, or forces her to live her life in tremendous pain?

I would say that life and physical health count, personally.

Not much better.

The fetus and the mother are equals. You cannot favor the life of one over the life of the other. Also, those circumstances are brought about by the birth process, not the pregnancy itself. A cesarean section would be the simple answer.

Come on, people. Do you have anything better than this?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Lifeisgood
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7/1/2009 8:37:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Nags and Volkov- please, I'm trying to have a serious thread here. That is an illegitimate argument.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/1/2009 8:41:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:28:39 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 8:13:43 PM, Volkov wrote:
Violates a woman's right to choose what to do with her body, and as such anything dependent upon her body to live.

I said no wimpy arguments!

I'll deal with it anyway. To start off, a fetus is a human. If it is a human, then it is a person. If it is a person, then the mother is responsible for the fetus, as it is her child. End of argument.

How is it a "wimpy argument"?

Fetus is technically a parasite - it depends on the mother to survive. It is only a "potential" human - it isn't a human or a non-dependent life until it comes out of the womb. It isn't a person, and until the fetus stops depending on the mother for survival, it is the mother's choice as what to do with it, because it is her body.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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7/1/2009 8:42:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:35:16 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 8:17:44 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Quality of life ... what if it physically disables her, or forces her to live her life in tremendous pain?

I would say that life and physical health count, personally.

Not much better.

The fetus and the mother are equals. You cannot favor the life of one over the life of the other. Also, those circumstances are brought about by the birth process, not the pregnancy itself. A cesarean section would be the simple answer.

Come on, people. Do you have anything better than this?

Yea, I do. Try to answer these:

1.Nearly all abortions take place in the first trimester, when a fetus cannot exist independent of the mother. As it is attached by the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot exist outside her womb.

2.The concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but fertilized eggs used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are routinely thrown away. Is this murder, and if not, then how is abortion murder?

3.Adoption is not an alternative to abortion, because it remains the woman's choice whether or not to give her child up for adoption. Statistics show that very few women who give birth choose to give up their babies - less than 3% of white unmarried women and less than 2% of black unmarried women.

4.Abortion is a safe medical procedure. The vast majority of women - 88% - who have an abortion do so in their first trimester. Medical abortions have less than 0.5% risk of serious complications and do not affect a woman's health or future ability to become pregnant or give birth.

5.In the case of rape or incest, forcing a woman made pregnant by this violent act would cause further psychological harm to the victim. Often a woman is too afraid to speak up or is unaware she is pregnant, thus the morning after pill is ineffective in these situations.

6.Abortion is not used as a form of contraception. Pregnancy can occur even with responsible contraceptive use. Only 8% of women who have abortions do not use any form of birth control, and that is due more to individual carelessness than to the availability of abortion.

7.The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to civil rights. Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope. If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, what about forcing a woman to use contraception or undergo sterilization?

8.Taxpayer dollars are used to enable poor women to access the same medical services as rich women, and abortion is one of these services. Funding abortion is no different from funding a war in the Mideast. For those who are opposed, the place to express outrage is in the voting booth.

9.Teenagers who become mothers have grim prospects for the future. They are much more likely to leave of school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; develop health problems; or end up divorced.

10.Like any other difficult situation, abortion creates stress. Yet the American Psychological Association found that stress was greatest prior to an abortion, and that there was no evidence of post-abortion syndrome.

Your arrogance is unappreciated.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/1/2009 9:07:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:28:39 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 8:13:43 PM, Volkov wrote:
Violates a woman's right to choose what to do with her body, and as such anything dependent upon her body to live.

I said no wimpy arguments!

I'll deal with it anyway. To start off, a fetus is a human.
It's a rational animal?

If it is a person, then the mother is responsible for the fetus, as it is her child.
People should be slaves to their progeny?

The fetus and the mother are equals.
And I suppose the flea and the dog are too?

Even if a fetus WERE a human, which it is not yet, it would still not have a right to suck it's sustenance out of another human without consent. You don't see me looking for victims to cannibalize.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 9:08:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:41:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
How is it a "wimpy argument"?

Oh, please. I barely had to think to refute it.

Fetus is technically a parasite - it depends on the mother to survive.

You could say the same about a child- it depends on the mother to survive. Yet why is it that child neglect is still illegal?

It is only a "potential" human - it isn't a human or a non-dependent life until it comes out of the womb.

This is the most common abortion argument out there. I asked for more than this.

First of all, it seems you need some definitions, as you are making no sense.

Person: 1: human
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Human: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens: man ; broadly : hominid
http://www.merriam-webster.com...[2]

Fetus=human. Human=person. End of argument.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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7/1/2009 9:14:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:08:57 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 8:41:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
How is it a "wimpy argument"?

Oh, please. I barely had to think to refute it.

Fetus is technically a parasite - it depends on the mother to survive.

You could say the same about a child- it depends on the mother to survive. Yet why is it that child neglect is still illegal?

It is only a "potential" human - it isn't a human or a non-dependent life until it comes out of the womb.

This is the most common abortion argument out there. I asked for more than this.

First of all, it seems you need some definitions, as you are making no sense.

Person: 1: human
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Human: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens: man ; broadly : hominid
http://www.merriam-webster.com...[2]

Fetus=human. Human=person. End of argument.

The concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but fertilized eggs used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are routinely thrown away.

A fetus possesses life, but is not a human, obviously. What don't you get?

Thanks for skipping my entire argument. It must have been to much for you...

What is life but a means to an end?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/1/2009 9:18:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago

Fetus is technically a parasite - it depends on the mother to survive.

You could say the same about a child- it depends on the mother to survive. Yet why is it that child neglect is still illegal?
Because the government is too full of compassion to give a damn about rights.


Human: a bipedal primate mammal
*grafts an extra leg on this fellow* You have no rights now. Bow before me slave.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 9:19:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:45:56 PM, Nags wrote:
And re-read our debate. I summed it up pretty well imo.

You lost the debate.

--And I proved a fetus is not human.

No, you did not. Your definition of 'human' was fine, but the definition of 'individual' was inapplicable. Despite what you said, the person on life support would still be excluded from being a human. The only thing you tried to do was differentiate a person on life support from a fetus.

You failed to prove the point.

I was somewhat disappointed by that debate, which is precisely why I created this topic: to find some legitimate pro-choice arguments.

To SAC8: I'll deal with your points tomorrow.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
LB628
Posts: 176
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7/1/2009 9:25:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is futile. Pro-life arguments seem ridiculous to Pro-choice people, and Pro-choice arguments seem ridiculous to Pro-life people because both sides have different assumptions, and different methods of interpreting facts and so they will never come to the same conclusion.

That said, if you so wish, feel free to carry on.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 9:27:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:14:48 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote::

A fetus possesses life, but is not a human, obviously. What don't you get?

From the moment of conception, a fetus has 100% complete, human DNA, along with its own gender. I have said this before: if it is not human, what is it?

Thanks for skipping my entire argument. It must have been to much for you...

I'm sorry. I was typing a reply when you posted it. Like I said, I'll deal with it tomorrow.

To Ragnar Rahl: you are being nonsensical. Legitimate arguments, please!
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/1/2009 9:27:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Different methods? you mean faith and reason?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/1/2009 9:29:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
To Ragnar Rahl: you are being nonsensical. Legitimate arguments, please!

This is the most succintly hypocritical statement I've ever seen on this site. To state
"You are being nonsensical," with no explanation, is the least "legitimate argument" of all possible statements.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
MTGandP
Posts: 702
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7/1/2009 9:31:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:08:57 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
Fetus=human. Human=person. End of argument.

Step one is true, but step two isn't.

I think the number one pro-abortion argument is this:

1a. Fetuses in the first and second trimesters have no nerve endings. They are incapable of pain and emotion.
1b. Fetuses have no self-awareness, and therefore are not people and do not have the same fundamental rights as people.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 9:31:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:25:36 PM, LB628 wrote:
This is futile. Pro-life arguments seem ridiculous to Pro-choice people, and Pro-choice arguments seem ridiculous to Pro-life people because both sides have different assumptions, and different methods of interpreting facts and so they will never come to the same conclusion.

If both sides use logic in light of the facts, then both will come to the same conclusion that abortion is wrong. The trouble is, people on both sides frequently don't do this.

That said, if you so wish, feel free to carry on.

I shall.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/1/2009 9:32:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:31:17 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 9:25:36 PM, LB628 wrote:
This is futile. Pro-life arguments seem ridiculous to Pro-choice people, and Pro-choice arguments seem ridiculous to Pro-life people because both sides have different assumptions, and different methods of interpreting facts and so they will never come to the same conclusion.

If both sides use logic in light of the facts, then both will come to the same conclusion that abortion is wrong.

Which facts? bring these supposed facts to me.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Xer
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7/1/2009 9:34:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:19:02 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 8:45:56 PM, Nags wrote:
And re-read our debate. I summed it up pretty well imo.

You lost the debate.

--And I proved a fetus is not human.

No, you did not. Your definition of 'human' was fine, but the definition of 'individual' was inapplicable. Despite what you said, the person on life support would still be excluded from being a human. The only thing you tried to do was differentiate a person on life support from a fetus.

You failed to prove the point.

I was somewhat disappointed by that debate, which is precisely why I created this topic: to find some legitimate pro-choice arguments.

To SAC8: I'll deal with your points tomorrow.

Umm.. yeah ok... I won. Which means I have more points than you, which means that the voters though I did a better job at the debate.......

So, yeah... I did prove my point.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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7/1/2009 9:35:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 8:35:16 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 8:17:44 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Quality of life ... what if it physically disables her, or forces her to live her life in tremendous pain?

I would say that life and physical health count, personally.

Not much better.

The fetus and the mother are equals. You cannot favor the life of one over the life of the other. Also, those circumstances are brought about by the birth process, not the pregnancy itself. A cesarean section would be the simple answer.

Come on, people. Do you have anything better than this?

Well, you see, that's where I disagree. The woman is a known value ... if you care at all about her life, then I must presume that value to be positive. The child is unknown ... it could be a serial killer in waiting. Moreover, it's not entirely clear that the child is even qualified to count as a human being in the first place. Human life? Well, it's alive and genetically human, so sure. Human being? Well, it's not whole and independent, so I'm not really sure. I think that if you're crippling a known positive human being, it is awfully hard to argue that disallowing abortion was right, at the time the decision was made, unless you could predict with reasonable certainty that the child would be more valuable than the mother.

How you measure value is irrelevant, in this hypothetical anyway.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 9:49:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:31:06 PM, MTGandP wrote:
I think the number one pro-abortion argument is this:

1a. Fetuses in the first and second trimesters have no nerve endings. They are incapable of pain and emotion.
1b. Fetuses have no self-awareness, and therefore are not people and do not have the same fundamental rights as people.

Much better, but even this argument ultimately fails. The definition of 'person' is a human. Apparently more dictionary sources are needed.

1) 1. A living human.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

2) 1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child
2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com...

3)1.a human being, esp. as distinguished from a thing or lower animal
http://www.yourdictionary.com...

4) a human being
Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Second College Edition, copyright 1982. Simon and Schuster publishers.

Also, if you use such things as feeling pain, emotion, and self-awareness to determine personhood, think on this: those in a coma feels none of these. Are they not persons because of this?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/1/2009 9:53:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:34:56 PM, Nags wrote:

Umm.. yeah ok... I won. Which means I have more points than you, which means that the voters though I did a better job at the debate.......

You had more votes because more people agreed with you. I was winning by ten points until two people came and dropped all seven votes on you unfairly. I was the real winner.

So, yeah... I did prove my point.

No, you did not.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
burningpuppies101
Posts: 1,268
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7/1/2009 9:58:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/1/2009 9:49:18 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
At 7/1/2009 9:31:06 PM, MTGandP wrote:
I think the number one pro-abortion argument is this:

1a. Fetuses in the first and second trimesters have no nerve endings. They are incapable of pain and emotion.
1b. Fetuses have no self-awareness, and therefore are not people and do not have the same fundamental rights as people.

Much better, but even this argument ultimately fails. The definition of 'person' is a human. Apparently more dictionary sources are needed.

1) 1. A living human.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

2) 1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child
2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com...

3)1.a human being, esp. as distinguished from a thing or lower animal
http://www.yourdictionary.com...

4) a human being
Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Second College Edition, copyright 1982. Simon and Schuster publishers.

Also, if you use such things as feeling pain, emotion, and self-awareness to determine personhood, think on this: those in a coma feels none of these. Are they not persons because of this?

1. I'm going to answer that last question. No, I don't think that a human in a coma is a person. They are a human, since they biologically are a human, with human DNA and all, and they have the potential to feel pain, but no. They are not a person.

2. As to all your arguments. You attempt to use definitions to prove your point, and that is where you miss the entirety of this debate. If we could just use semantics to answer the problem, greater people than you would have answered the question already. (No offense intended.) However, the whole point is that the concept of personhood, or the point at which a fetus is a human being, is debated. When you debate abortion, these are the main focus points:

fetus= human?
human automatically = person?

The questions are: is a fetus a human, and if so, at what point does it become a human. At the point of conception? At the point of birth?

Is a human, if biologically speaking, automatically a person? As in, what makes you, you? If we just want to use definitions of humans to apply it to personhood, I can say this:

you= human= person
I = human = person
you= I

Sure, the logic is probably a little off, but the point is, if you try to apply a definition to such a subject, it starts to fall off a bit.
Omnes te moriturum amant 

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patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/1/2009 9:58:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
What I want to know is this: how is a mere fetus morally greater than, say, the animal which resulted in the steak that lifeisgood ate for supper last night? Because a fetus is "human?" There's humanities insane superiority complex for ya.

The abortion argument is much more of a moral issue than most people seem to make it out to be...I think there are an awful lot of essential questions that typically go unanswered going into a debate about abortion, which makes them a little "messy."