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Question About Gas Prices for Liberals

jimtimmy
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3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?
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Mimshot
Posts: 275
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3/20/2012 12:24:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

People are currently free to drill on their own land provided they have reasonable safety measures in place to prevent from polluting other people's land. Sounds like a pretty conservative policy. And now, you, claiming to be conservative suggest the government intervene in the market to lower the market price of a commodity.
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

By the way lay off the second grade remarks, your only making yourself look like an a**hole
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
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Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
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3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil. They are doing it because they can get away with it. Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market. Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.
By the way lay off the second grade remarks, your only making yourself look like an a**hole
His second grade remarks seemed to bave slipped your mind, so I wouldn't make the blatant comment that he is an a**hole.
Ron-Paul
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3/20/2012 2:09:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:24:51 PM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

People are currently free to drill on their own land provided they have reasonable safety measures in place to prevent from polluting other people's land. Sounds like a pretty conservative policy. And now, you, claiming to be conservative suggest the government intervene in the market to lower the market price of a commodity.

Government intervene? Where did he say that? I don't know about him, but my belief is that if we repealed Government restrictions on domestic oil drilling, that would be less Government involvement in the oil industry since there are no restrictions.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/20/2012 2:28:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

All else isn't equal. There is the rise of national oil companies (especially the great shell catastrophe of '04), peak oil theory is coming into effect, Andy Hall is bending the market over his knee, the SEC's 4-10 rule...not to mention Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia all doubling their reserves somehow in the last 8 years (and it's good for stock prices, so there is no need to challenge those statistics)...I can go on.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Don't take what I posted as rude, though: it's an incredibly complicated. 2nd grade economics does not take these things into account.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

Are you seriously denying market manipulation in oil? It's well documented, I can assure you. Look up Tom Bower, he's reported loads on it. Pinky Green and Marc Rich were well known for their manipulation of old and new oil. A trader once told Peter Gignoux (forgot the trader's name) "I wish we were regulated. That way, I could bend the rules". Look up Platts: They employed reporters on the market, but they were handicapped by trader's superior knowledge and intention to manipulate the market. But, alas, they still had to rely on the traders. And the traders knew it. Tom Bower states: "Traders talk their books to manipulate the prices. Traders conspire to pull the wool over our eyes" (The Squeeze, 2010)

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/20/2012 2:32:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil.

There are many more sour oil refineries than sweet oil refineries. Sour oil is cheaper to produce.

They are doing it because they can get away with it.

This is because they keep these countries class oil reserves as a trade secret, and have nationalised oil businesses at work.

Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market.

Domestic Drilling is being promoted by subsidies.

Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.

We are still effected dramatically, because elephants are found in other countries a lot more than in America, companies can drill more or less anywhere in these foreign countries and these foreign countries have more oil reserves unspoilt (elephant is an oil term for massive oil reserves).

Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.
By the way lay off the second grade remarks, your only making yourself look like an a**hole
His second grade remarks seemed to bave slipped your mind, so I wouldn't make the blatant comment that he is an a**hole.

The rest is more on natural gas, not my forté.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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3/20/2012 2:32:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil. They are doing it because they can get away with it. Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market. Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.

Yeah but we cant simply just end our massive dependence on foreign oil single handedly through drilling because the US has already exploited a large amount of the oil it has and in some cases (Texas) production has fallen as reservoirs have become depleted. If we drill now and all these pockets we drill into become depleted over time then we are not solving our dependency on foreign oil we are only prolonging it while prices continue to waver at however high they are now.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/20/2012 2:40:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:32:34 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil. They are doing it because they can get away with it. Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market. Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.

Yeah but we cant simply just end our massive dependence on foreign oil single handedly through drilling because the US has already exploited a large amount of the oil it has and in some cases (Texas) production has fallen as reservoirs have become depleted. If we drill now and all these pockets we drill into become depleted over time then we are not solving our dependency on foreign oil we are only prolonging it while prices continue to waver at however high they are now.

Not to mention that it is more expensive to do so. Close to home does not mean cheap, otherwise all Labour would be in Europe, not third world countries.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/20/2012 2:47:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:24:51 PM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

People are currently free to drill on their own land provided they have reasonable safety measures in place to prevent from polluting other people's land. Sounds like a pretty conservative policy. And now, you, claiming to be conservative suggest the government intervene in the market to lower the market price of a commodity.

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Those aren't even OSHA's regulations! They have even more! People are not free to drill on peoples land if they have safety! Safety is only ONE regulation out of many!
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Ron-Paul
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3/20/2012 2:48:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:32:13 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil.

There are many more sour oil refineries than sweet oil refineries. Sour oil is cheaper to produce.

Your point?
They are doing it because they can get away with it.

This is because they keep these countries class oil reserves as a trade secret, and have nationalised oil businesses at work.
You seem to be helping my argument.
Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market.

Domestic Drilling is being promoted by subsidies.

I would do away with those. And plus, since domestic drilling is mostly regulated, the subsidies can not have too much of an effect.
Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.

We are still effected dramatically, because elephants are found in other countries a lot more than in America, companies can drill more or less anywhere in these foreign countries and these foreign countries have more oil reserves unspoilt (elephant is an oil term for massive oil reserves).

Drilling here would reduce the price.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.
By the way lay off the second grade remarks, your only making yourself look like an a**hole
His second grade remarks seemed to bave slipped your mind, so I wouldn't make the blatant comment that he is an a**hole.

The rest is more on natural gas, not my forté.
Well he does not understand his second grade economics.
Ron-Paul
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3/20/2012 2:52:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:32:34 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil. They are doing it because they can get away with it. Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market. Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.

Yeah but we cant simply just end our massive dependence on foreign oil single handedly through drilling because the US has already exploited a large amount of the oil it has and in some cases (Texas) production has fallen as reservoirs have become depleted. If we drill now and all these pockets we drill into become depleted over time then we are not solving our dependency on foreign oil we are only prolonging it while prices continue to waver at however high they are now.

We could significantly reduce our dependency though. Just the reserves in our part of the Atlantic Ocean could sustain us fully for the next 70 years. And there are several more decades worth of untapped oil landwise.
Ron-Paul
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3/20/2012 2:53:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:40:34 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:32:34 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil. They are doing it because they can get away with it. Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market. Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.

Yeah but we cant simply just end our massive dependence on foreign oil single handedly through drilling because the US has already exploited a large amount of the oil it has and in some cases (Texas) production has fallen as reservoirs have become depleted. If we drill now and all these pockets we drill into become depleted over time then we are not solving our dependency on foreign oil we are only prolonging it while prices continue to waver at however high they are now.

Not to mention that it is more expensive to do so. Close to home does not mean cheap, otherwise all Labour would be in Europe, not third world countries.

Yes, but we wouldn't have to pay the massive middle eastern markups.
imabench
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3/20/2012 2:53:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
source?
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imabench
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3/20/2012 2:54:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:53:43 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:53:13 PM, imabench wrote:
source?

Common knowledge.

no i mean for that part about the atlantic ocean having enough oil for the next 70 years
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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Ron-Paul
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3/20/2012 3:03:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:54:52 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:53:43 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:53:13 PM, imabench wrote:
source?

Common knowledge.

no i mean for that part about the atlantic ocean having enough oil for the next 70 years

Can't find a single answer from either side. You got any proof against me?
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/20/2012 4:03:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:48:55 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:32:13 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil.

There are many more sour oil refineries than sweet oil refineries. Sour oil is cheaper to produce.

Your point?

Crude Oil is unusable. You need these refineries in order to get car oil, kerosene, tarmac, etc.

They are doing it because they can get away with it.

This is because they keep these countries class oil reserves as a trade secret, and have nationalised oil businesses at work.
You seem to be helping my argument.
Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market.

Domestic Drilling is being promoted by subsidies.

I would do away with those.

Which would make the price for oil companies higher. Which would make America less attractive for investment.

Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.

We are still effected dramatically, because elephants are found in other countries a lot more than in America, companies can drill more or less anywhere in these foreign countries and these foreign countries have more oil reserves unspoilt (elephant is an oil term for massive oil reserves).

Drilling here would reduce the price.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.
By the way lay off the second grade remarks, your only making yourself look like an a**hole
His second grade remarks seemed to bave slipped your mind, so I wouldn't make the blatant comment that he is an a**hole.

The rest is more on natural gas, not my forté.
Well he does not understand his second grade economics.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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imabench
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3/20/2012 4:04:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 3:03:12 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:54:52 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:53:43 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:53:13 PM, imabench wrote:
source?

Common knowledge.

no i mean for that part about the atlantic ocean having enough oil for the next 70 years

Can't find a single answer from either side. You got any proof against me?

Well if you claim something, and there is no evidence suggesting the claim is true, then thats called lying....
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
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Ron-Paul
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3/20/2012 6:52:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 4:03:04 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:48:55 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:32:13 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil.

There are many more sour oil refineries than sweet oil refineries. Sour oil is cheaper to produce.

Your point?

Crude Oil is unusable. You need these refineries in order to get car oil, kerosene, tarmac, etc.

It's still useable with the refineries. Again, your point?
They are doing it because they can get away with it.

This is because they keep these countries class oil reserves as a trade secret, and have nationalised oil businesses at work.
You seem to be helping my argument.
Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market.

Domestic Drilling is being promoted by subsidies.

I would do away with those.

Which would make the price for oil companies higher. Which would make America less attractive for investment.

No they wouldn't.
Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.

We are still effected dramatically, because elephants are found in other countries a lot more than in America, companies can drill more or less anywhere in these foreign countries and these foreign countries have more oil reserves unspoilt (elephant is an oil term for massive oil reserves).

Drilling here would reduce the price.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.
By the way lay off the second grade remarks, your only making yourself look like an a**hole
His second grade remarks seemed to bave slipped your mind, so I wouldn't make the blatant comment that he is an a**hole.

The rest is more on natural gas, not my forté.
Well he does not understand his second grade economics.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/21/2012 2:54:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 6:52:48 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 4:03:04 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:48:55 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:32:13 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:58:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I have heard a lot of liberals claiming that increasing the supply of fossil fuels by drilling for more oil, natural gas, and coal will not lower gas prices at all.

I don't understand this. I thought we all learned in elementary school economics that prices are determined by supply and demand. If we increase supply of energy by opening more oil rich areas for drilling, that would increase supply and therefore lower prices, all else equal.

Again, I thought we all learned this in 2nd grade.

Yet, I still hear liberals claiming that increasing production will not lower prices. I have herad some really retarded explanations like "profit gauging" or "market manipulation" or "fat cats". These, of course, should not be taken seriously.

So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

Drilling for more oil at home only increases the oil supply by a very limited amount when you compare it to the massive demand for oil here in the US and worldwide, meaning that drilling for more oil would not immediately bring down prices since the amount of oil being consumed worldwide is so massive that a few more oil wells or offshore rigs would not have much of a visible impact in reducing prices. There are a variety of factors that determine oil prices, and the reason why oil is spiking right now is mostly because it is almost summer (gas prices always spike during summer due to increased demand) and overseas affairs involving oil producing countries (Such as Iran threatening to block the Straight of Hormuz)

If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil.

There are many more sour oil refineries than sweet oil refineries. Sour oil is cheaper to produce.

Your point?

Crude Oil is unusable. You need these refineries in order to get car oil, kerosene, tarmac, etc.

It's still useable with the refineries. Again, your point?

It's usable in sweet refineries only, of which there is very few of, and their capacities are naturally lower due to the process. Therefore, the production of it will have (and has) hit a ceiling for the amount of crude oil that could be developed. And the development of factories takes years, and almost always outside of 1st world countries due to lower minimum wages, lower standards of living, weak governments needing the money and other factors.

They are doing it because they can get away with it.

This is because they keep these countries class oil reserves as a trade secret, and have nationalised oil businesses at work.
You seem to be helping my argument.
Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market.

Domestic Drilling is being promoted by subsidies.

I would do away with those.

Which would make the price for oil companies higher. Which would make America less attractive for investment.

No they wouldn't.

Coolstorybro, care you back that up at all? Bearing in mind Sakhalin, the hotspot for oil/gas investments, is 7 times cheaper to build in than American mainland?

Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.

We are still effected dramatically, because elephants are found in other countries a lot more than in America, companies can drill more or less anywhere in these foreign countries and these foreign countries have more oil reserves unspoilt (elephant is an oil term for massive oil reserves).

Drilling here would reduce the price.
Increasing Domestic Oil Drilling would only impact gas prices if it was increased by a very large and almost drastic amount, and even then the price would only be affected minimally because oil prices are affected by more than just whether or not the US is drilling for it....

Again, if we reduced our dependence on foreign oil. There would not be such high prices. Only if prices stayed the same as now only if the prices were kept at the same level. But since competition plays a lot bigger of a role with greater domestic production, prices would be a lot lower.
By the way lay off the second grade remarks, your only making yourself look like an a**hole
His second grade remarks seemed to bave slipped your mind, so I wouldn't make the blatant comment that he is an a**hole.

The rest is more on natural gas, not my forté.
Well he does not understand his second grade economics.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Grape
Posts: 989
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3/21/2012 7:35:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I really doubt that anyone on the left who knows what they're talking about is saying that if there were more oil on the market that would not lead to a ceteris paribus decrease in prices.
Mimshot
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3/21/2012 9:31:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 7:35:46 AM, Grape wrote:
I really doubt that anyone on the left who knows what they're talking about is saying that if there were more oil on the market that would not lead to a ceteris paribus decrease in prices.

Well unless we're talking about an increase in oil supply and a decrease in gasoline prices when refinery capacity is maxed out. I'm all for more refinery construction.
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Stephen_Hawkins
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3/21/2012 5:33:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 7:35:46 AM, Grape wrote:
I really doubt that anyone on the left who knows what they're talking about is saying that if there were more oil on the market that would not lead to a ceteris paribus decrease in prices.

Unfortunately, I work in real terms, not ceteris paribus.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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3/22/2012 12:11:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 5:33:26 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/21/2012 7:35:46 AM, Grape wrote:
I really doubt that anyone on the left who knows what they're talking about is saying that if there were more oil on the market that would not lead to a ceteris paribus decrease in prices.

Unfortunately, I work in real terms, not ceteris paribus.

Kind of a meaningless response.
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Thaddeus
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3/22/2012 12:25:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 5:33:26 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/21/2012 7:35:46 AM, Grape wrote:
I really doubt that anyone on the left who knows what they're talking about is saying that if there were more oil on the market that would not lead to a ceteris paribus decrease in prices.

Unfortunately, I work in real terms, not ceteris paribus.

Real terms here directly equate. It just makes the amount it changes by harder to predict.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/22/2012 1:59:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:08:53 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
So, does anyone have a serious answer here?

I haven't heard anyone say it wouldn't affect prices at all, but it won't affect it significantly. For starters, oil producers artificially alter supply, so its not a natural price limit but a case of rampant price fixing. For another, especially the past several decades, the price of fuel is far more affected by prospecting -- essentially Wall Street-level price fixing.

Normal supply/demand balances do not apply nor work with oligarchies such as the energy industry. When there are only a few huge 'competitors,' they have the power to fix prices to even further their already high wealth.

The "Free market" religion that the market will somehow set fair prices doesn't apply when competition is limited (not that it is an absolute rule, anyway; essentially it just determines those who lower their bottom line will get ahead and pwn the market -- and if there are unethical or immoral ways to go about it, such as shorting workers or customers -- those cheats will win out over fair behavior, meaning free markets kill fair business practices).

If every known untapped source of oil in the U.S. were tapped today and we started drilling them all recklessly, neglecting safeguards designed to prevent massive disasters such as Deepwater Horizon and Exxon Valdez -- there might be an effect of lowering prices by 10 to 20 cents per gallon within 10 to 20 years, according to oil industry experts. That's it. Not 50 cents/gallon, certainly not $1/gallon, and the effect wouldn't be tomorrow nor in a few months nor even just a couple years from now.
PervRat
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3/22/2012 2:01:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:07:11 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
If we drilled for more oil domestically, we wouldn't have to pay the ridiculous markups that middle eastern oil producers charge on oil. They are doing it because they can get away with it. Drilling for oil domestically will reduce the markup significantly since competition is allowed to be in the oil market. Plus, if we started drilling for oil domestically, America would not be affected so much by middle eastern crises since we would get less oil from there.

Thoroughly false. The middle man markups are on Wall Street, not in the Middle East. Domestic oil producers are no less greedy than Middle Eastern.
PervRat
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3/22/2012 2:12:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 9:31:23 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/21/2012 7:35:46 AM, Grape wrote:
I really doubt that anyone on the left who knows what they're talking about is saying that if there were more oil on the market that would not lead to a ceteris paribus decrease in prices.

Well unless we're talking about an increase in oil supply and a decrease in gasoline prices when refinery capacity is maxed out. I'm all for more refinery construction.

And how much more damage? A refinery here in the Pacific Northwest run by -- surprise -- BP recently blew up. Relaxing regulations means more frequent disasters and more deaths. Its not a "deregulate, build more, and there is no harm at all" situation. There are high negative externality risks with high level toxic production. A big part of the Deepwater Horizon disaster problem was how cozy producers got to be with regulators, badly undermining existing regulations. BP has an atrocious safety record, even before Deepwater Horizon they were responsible for the vast majority (ABOVE 90%) of serious safety violations in the oil and gas industry. If BP was in the business of cattle or manufacturing cars instead of producing and refining oil, they would have been completely shut down decades ago ... but essentially they're allowed to create unlimited disasters with virtually complete impunity. The fines for their serious safety violations resulting in deaths are a terrible joke and would be the equivalent (scaling their income to the fines for serious safety violations resulting in death) to a person making $40,000 per year getting fined less than a penny for hitting and killing a child while doing 120 mph in a 20 mph school zone.
darkkermit
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3/22/2012 2:26:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 9:31:23 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/21/2012 7:35:46 AM, Grape wrote:
I really doubt that anyone on the left who knows what they're talking about is saying that if there were more oil on the market that would not lead to a ceteris paribus decrease in prices.

Well unless we're talking about an increase in oil supply and a decrease in gasoline prices when refinery capacity is maxed out. I'm all for more refinery construction.


Supply of crude oil increases, causing a decrease in the cost of crude oil.

Cost of gasoline:
Cost of gasoline = cost of crude oil + refinary + whatever other costs I forgot

Therefore, cost of gasoline decreases.
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