Total Posts:61|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Israel's vs America's "Right To Exist"?

jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 12:26:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Don't get hung up on how I phrased the title, i.e. what it means to have a "right to exist."

A close friend of mine was arguing with a rabbi about the validity of the foundations of the modern state of Israel. Basically his case was as follows. As Murray Rothbard says in his 1967 article "War Guilt In The Middle East":

"By the time of the permanent armistice agreement of Feb. 24, 1949, then, 600,000 Jews had created a state which had originally housed 850,000 Arabs (out of a total Palestinian Arab population of 1.2 million). Of these Arabs, three-quarters of a million had been driven out from their lands and homes, and the remaining remnant was subject to a harsh military rule which, two decades later, is still in force. The homes, lands, and bank accounts of the fleeing Arab refugees were promptly confiscated by Israel and handed over to Jewish immigrants.

Israel has long claimed that the three-quarters of a million Arabs were not driven out by force but rather by their own unjustified panic induced by Arab leaders – but the key point is that everyone recognizes Israel's adamant refusal to let these refugees return and reclaim the property taken from them. From that day to this, for two decades, these hapless Arab refugees, their ranks now swollen by natural increase to 1.3 million, have continued to live in utter destitution in refugee camps around the Israeli borders, barely kept alive by meager UN funds and CARE packages, living only for the day when they will return to their rightful homes."

So his case was that the modern state of Israel acquired its land in an unjust manner.

The rabbi responded that if you accept this case, you must also accept that technically, America also acquired its land in an unjust manner, and that the Native Americans/Indians deserve to get their land back.

Is this an accurate comparison? What are some similarities and differences between how Israel and America acquired their lands?
Mimshot
Posts: 275
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 1:41:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 12:26:00 PM, jat93 wrote:
Don't get hung up on how I phrased the title, i.e. what it means to have a "right to exist."

A close friend of mine was arguing with a rabbi about the validity of the foundations of the modern state of Israel. Basically his case was as follows. As Murray Rothbard says in his 1967 article "War Guilt In The Middle East":

"By the time of the permanent armistice agreement of Feb. 24, 1949, then, 600,000 Jews had created a state which had originally housed 850,000 Arabs (out of a total Palestinian Arab population of 1.2 million). Of these Arabs, three-quarters of a million had been driven out from their lands and homes, and the remaining remnant was subject to a harsh military rule which, two decades later, is still in force. The homes, lands, and bank accounts of the fleeing Arab refugees were promptly confiscated by Israel and handed over to Jewish immigrants.

Israel has long claimed that the three-quarters of a million Arabs were not driven out by force but rather by their own unjustified panic induced by Arab leaders – but the key point is that everyone recognizes Israel's adamant refusal to let these refugees return and reclaim the property taken from them. From that day to this, for two decades, these hapless Arab refugees, their ranks now swollen by natural increase to 1.3 million, have continued to live in utter destitution in refugee camps around the Israeli borders, barely kept alive by meager UN funds and CARE packages, living only for the day when they will return to their rightful homes."

So his case was that the modern state of Israel acquired its land in an unjust manner.

The rabbi responded that if you accept this case, you must also accept that technically, America also acquired its land in an unjust manner, and that the Native Americans/Indians deserve to get their land back.

Is this an accurate comparison? What are some similarities and differences between how Israel and America acquired their lands?

Nope, the U.S.' expropriation was far more effective.
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
PervRat
Posts: 963
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 1:50:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 12:26:00 PM, jat93 wrote:
Is this an accurate comparison? What are some similarities and differences between how Israel and America acquired their lands?

Aside from era, not a whole lot. Both nations have signed and broken treaties essentially promising not to conquer too much; the Cherokee came to mock American 'civilization' and our agreements as 'talking leaves' -- treaties the U.S. signs blow away in the wind at a whim and have no real meaning. The U.S. still earns this ill rep; hesitation and refusal, for instance, to help track down and stop internationally tried and convicted genocidalists despite a treaty we signed in the wake of the fascist genocide against Jews, gays, and other "undesirables" in Europe.

Israel, too, has signed and broken a number of treaties. They didn't stop grabbing Palestianian lands and forcing Palestinians from their homes with the initial land grab; the Israeli government has continued to bulldoze Palestinian homes, and round up and arrest every male in Palestinian villages.

Both Israel and the U.S. have slashed and conquered their territory and demand adherence to their 'sovereignty' over the lands they have conquered, kicking out anyone they don't want.

I find it a tragic irony of ignorance, for instance, so many especially right-wingers in the U.S. condemn births as creating "illegal people" subject to prosecution for trying to work to feed their families. Most of the U.S. as it exists today is the result of blatant sovereignty violations from both native peoples and earlier settlements and colonizations, such as Texas. Mexicans did not rise up in Texas and declare they wanted to be part of the U.S.; instead, a lot of white Americans essentially illegally invaded Texas, crowded out actual Texans purposefully and they created the so-called 'revolution' which was more conquest of subterfuge. Similar actions violated the sovereignty of the kingdom of Hawai'i.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 2:24:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
After world war one ended the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations, in order create a "Jewish national home". Contrary to popular belief, it was not after the second world war.

In 1946 the British mandate was split between the British mandate for the Jewish people, and Trans-Jordan for the Arabs. This was in order to prevent more tension between the Arab and Jewish communities In 1947 a group of Arabs systematically attacked Jewish civilians, sparking the Palestinian civil war.

In 1947 the British once again offered to divide Jewish Palestine, but the Arabs refused the proposal, as they wanted all of Palestine.

In 1948 Israel declared independence from the British, and the British Mandate expired the following day at 12am, establishing the Jewish State.

Almost immediately the Arab League invaded, which was the start of a long conflict.

Prior to the British Mandate the region was known as Ottoman Syria, a territory of the ottoman empire. Prior to Ottoman Syria they were part of the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt. The Mamluk Sultanate was the last time Palestine was not a territory. The Sultanate ended in 1517. Prior to the Sultanate t was the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. This was in the days of the crusades.
So the last time Palestine was not a territory was before Columbus discovered America.

Now here is where there are some similarities between the US and Israel.
The US declared Independence from the British.
Israel declared Independence from he British.
The 13 British colonies were established on land inhabited by another culture, with permission from the wampanoag confederacy (owners)
The British Mandate was established on land inhabited by another culture, with permission from the Ottoman Empire (owners)
The US's borders were established by treaty with their neighbors, and the Natives were placed on reservations through a series of conflicts, and given a system of self governance within the US borders by the US government.
Israel's borders were established by treaty with their neighbors, and the Natives through a series of conflicts, were given a system of self governance within the Israeli borders by the Israeli government.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 4:05:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Israel is an illegitimate state which has been stolen from the muslims. What is crazy is the fact that the muslims allowed and welcomed the Jews. It is like you take in a homeless man or poor relative into your house and then he kicks you out of you own house and you're at the door knocking and begging to come back in. What is this madness? The fact that the U.S supports them is absurd and will come back to hurt them. The current 'Israelis' will either have to move out of the country or cease to exist because their very foundations and the starting of their systems are rooted in immoralities.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 5:36:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:05:10 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Israel is an illegitimate state which has been stolen from the muslims. What is crazy is the fact that the muslims allowed and welcomed the Jews.

No they didn't
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 7:06:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry, after I did some research I realized that the muslims didn't welcome them but opposed their coming. I was mistaken. However, the muslims were still wronged severely. Why didn't Europe give any of it's lands to the Jews or Germany since it is to be condemned for it's atrocities. Why were the muslims forced to give their lands and then be forcefully kicked out of them.

What is crazy is how the muslims are forced to give up their lands for no reasons, But the aggressor and mass murderer Germany gets away completely scot free. The Palestinians should not give up their lands because of the faults of Germany!!
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 7:17:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 7:06:07 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Sorry, after I did some research I realized that the muslims didn't welcome them but opposed their coming. I was mistaken. However, the muslims were still wronged severely. Why didn't Europe give any of it's lands to the Jews or Germany since it is to be condemned for it's atrocities. Why were the muslims forced to give their lands and then be forcefully kicked out of them.

When the Central Powers lost WWI their empires were broken up. The British Mandate for Palestine was created from Ottoman Syria, along with the French Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon.
The British Mandate was conceived in order to create a Jewish National home.

What is crazy is how the muslims are forced to give up their lands for no reasons, But the aggressor and mass murderer Germany gets away completely scot free. The Palestinians should not give up their lands because of the faults of Germany!!

It goes back before WWII
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 7:25:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Palestinians definitely have a right to fight for their land just as the Indians did for theirs. Right? The only difference is we beat the Indians long ago and Israel and Palestine are still fighting.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2012 7:30:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:05:10 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Israel is an illegitimate state which has been stolen from the muslims.

The prior state was guilty and rightly removed from power there. Israel may also be guilty, but not because it took power from a guilty state. If it is guilty, it is guilty of abetting the taking of private property from SOME individual Arabs (not all of whom are Muslim). The proper resolution is returning that private property to those individual Arabs, and punishing the individually responsible, not a collective eradication or evacuation of the Jews and the establishment of a regime as profoundly evil as that Fatah and Hamas would make.

If Fatah and Hamas were not guilty of oppression of innocents, they would have a legitimate complaint against Israel, but they don't, and hence, the present Israel-Palestine area is a land ruled by warring evil gangs, not an evil gang and a good gang.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2012 4:07:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 12:26:00 PM, jat93 wrote:
The rabbi responded that if you accept this case, you must also accept that technically, America also acquired its land in an unjust manner,...

It is a fact that America was established by trampling over the native Americans. No doubt it was wrong. However it is important to understand what was wrong. It was not wrong for other people to come and settle in America. On other hand, the reckless raids and massacres were definitely wrong. The settlers should have tried to work out some equitable arrangement with the original population.

...and that the Native Americans/Indians deserve to get their land back.

That is impractical. If you return all the lands - where will you go? On other hand it is essential that if there is any current discrimination against descendents of native Indians, it should be stopped and they should be given due recognition and respect as the original citizens. It shall be desirable if Americans make some efforts to preserve the culture and traditions.

Is this an accurate comparison? What are some similarities and differences between how Israel and America acquired their lands?

What happened in America is not a justification for Israel. Jews have to abide by the commandments. What happened in Israel (and is happening) is in clear violation of the 6th, 8th and 10th commandments.

No one is asking the Jews to disappear from Israel. Israel/Palestine should be shared between equitably between Muslims and Jews as it is holy land for both the communities. I strongly support a single state solution with equal rights for both Jews and Arabs. (Though I will accept a two state solution over the current situation, if it respects the rights of people of Palestine and is acceptable to them).
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2012 4:19:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:36:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:05:10 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Israel is an illegitimate state which has been stolen from the muslims. What is crazy is the fact that the muslims allowed and welcomed the Jews.

No they didn't

They did. From the time Muslims liberated Jerusalem from Romans, till 1917 or so.

Naturally the welcome was over once they realized that the actual aim of Zionists.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2012 10:55:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There is nothing particularly unique about the creation of Israel. Lands have been reapportioned, conquered, claimed, reclaimed, divided, traded, and lost throughout the entire history of the world. Every other time, the displaced have absorbed into that society or elsewhere, and will eventually continue meaningful and productive lives.

What seems to be particularly unique about this case though is the willingness of a culture to subjugate an entire group of people into permanent refugee status (The Palestinians are first hereditary refugees in history) forcing them into second class status in places like Lebanon and Jordan, leaving the Palestinians little choice but to aim forward towards their perceived enemy Israel with there own supposed brethren behind them, weapons pointed at their back, in a metaphorical tunnel in which they have no other options.

I don't think many people predicted before Israeli independence that this would be the manifestation of the Arab/Muslim world to use the Palestinians in perpetuity in effort to delegitimize Israel's existence forever.

Israel has a 'right' to exist because it is able to defend itself. Questions pertaining to land sovereignty invariably come down to most recent military victory in all cases. Nothing else has any influence or bearing over a nations legitimacy or its 'right to exist'.
Debate.org Moderator
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2012 6:40:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 4:19:04 AM, baggins wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:36:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:05:10 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Israel is an illegitimate state which has been stolen from the muslims. What is crazy is the fact that the muslims allowed and welcomed the Jews.

No they didn't

They did. From the time Muslims liberated Jerusalem from Romans,

Liberate my a**! The Umayyad Caliphate did the same thing the Romans did. Jews and Christians became second class citizens, and were forced to submit to Islamic supremacy.
till 1917 or so.

The Ottoman Empire was very antisemetic, their antisemitism started in the 1800's and by WWI they had antisemetic laws and policies in place
From the start of the Umayyad Caliphate to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Jews were considered second class citizens, by the Islamic overlords.

Naturally the welcome was over once they realized that the actual aim of Zionists.

sieg heil to you too
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2012 12:59:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 6:40:07 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/23/2012 4:19:04 AM, baggins wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:36:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:05:10 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Israel is an illegitimate state which has been stolen from the muslims. What is crazy is the fact that the muslims allowed and welcomed the Jews.

No they didn't

They did. From the time Muslims liberated Jerusalem from Romans,

Liberate my a**! The Umayyad Caliphate did the same thing the Romans did. Jews and Christians became second class citizens, and were forced to submit to Islamic supremacy.
till 1917 or so.

The Ottoman Empire was very antisemetic, their antisemitism started in the 1800's and by WWI they had antisemetic laws and policies in place
From the start of the Umayyad Caliphate to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Jews were considered second class citizens, by the Islamic overlords.

Islam has been represented by different rulers over a long period, who had differing levels of tolerance and varying attitudes. On other hand treatment of Jews and Christians has always been fairly good. Until the rise of Zionists (and Zionism is not Judaism), Jews had been living peacefully in a large number of Muslim countries without any problem. It is true for Omayyads. It is true for Ottomans. Ottomans were specially notable for giving refuge to huge number of Jews after they were exiled from Portugal and Spain.

I am sure, we would have some cases of problems over a period of over a millennium of shared history. On other hand the fair treatment of the people of the book is in special contrast to what was happening in so called 'Christian' countries who are the current Zionist ally.

Naturally the welcome was over once they realized that the actual aim of Zionists.

sieg heil to you too

Why addressing me with a Nazi salute? I am not a Nazi or a Zionist. In fact, I detest both.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

BTW, Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2012 5:13:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 12:59:43 PM, baggins wrote:
At 3/23/2012 6:40:07 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/23/2012 4:19:04 AM, baggins wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:36:57 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:05:10 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Israel is an illegitimate state which has been stolen from the muslims. What is crazy is the fact that the muslims allowed and welcomed the Jews.

No they didn't

They did. From the time Muslims liberated Jerusalem from Romans,

Liberate my a**! The Umayyad Caliphate did the same thing the Romans did. Jews and Christians became second class citizens, and were forced to submit to Islamic supremacy.
till 1917 or so.

The Ottoman Empire was very antisemetic, their antisemitism started in the 1800's and by WWI they had antisemetic laws and policies in place
From the start of the Umayyad Caliphate to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Jews were considered second class citizens, by the Islamic overlords.

Islam has been represented by different rulers over a long period, who had differing levels of tolerance and varying attitudes. On other hand treatment of Jews and Christians has always been fairly good. Until the rise of Zionists (and Zionism is not Judaism), Jews had been living peacefully in a large number of Muslim countries without any problem. It is true for Omayyads. It is true for Ottomans. Ottomans were specially notable for giving refuge to huge number of Jews after they were exiled from Portugal and Spain.

Second Class citizenship is the same as Nazi Germany, only Islam did it first.

I am sure, we would have some cases of problems over a period of over a millennium of shared history. On other hand the fair treatment of the people of the book is in special contrast to what was happening in so called 'Christian' countries who are the current Zionist ally.

Name a "christian country"; besides Vatican city.

Naturally the welcome was over once they realized that the actual aim of Zionists.

sieg heil to you too

Why addressing me with a Nazi salute? I am not a Nazi or a Zionist. In fact, I detest both.

That sounded like Nazi Propaganda. Replace "Zionists" with "Jews", and you would be plagiarizing Hitler.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

BTW, Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism.

1.) Are you admitting to Antisemitism?
2.) Your reasoning screams "antisemitic!!!".
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2012 5:43:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 5:13:10 PM, DanT wrote:
Second Class citizenship is the same as Nazi Germany, only Islam did it first.
If you think that Jews in any Islamic society were treated like they were during Hitler's reign, then read some history Ma'am. The comparison is nonsensical.

You'll also have a hard time explaining how being a Jew is equivalent to being a second-class citizen in an Islamic society.

BTW, Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism.

1.) Are you admitting to Antisemitism?
2.) Your reasoning screams "antisemitic!!!".
Maybe you aren't professional in comprehension skills, but he said that he is not against Jews, but Zionism. If you understand the difference, you'll understand his position too.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/24/2012 7:44:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 5:43:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 3/24/2012 5:13:10 PM, DanT wrote:
Second Class citizenship is the same as Nazi Germany, only Islam did it first.
If you think that Jews in any Islamic society were treated like they were during Hitler's reign, then read some history Ma'am. The comparison is nonsensical.

You'll also have a hard time explaining how being a Jew is equivalent to being a second-class citizen in an Islamic society.

I already did explain it

Every Jewish power that ever held that region granted 1st class citizenship only to Muslims, and granted second class citizenship to non Muslims. This started under the Umayyad Caliphate, which had 4 social classes;
1. Muslim Arabs
2. Muslim non-Arabs
3. Non-Muslim free persons (Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians)
4. Slaves

Non-Muslims were granted second class citizenship on the condition that they acknowledge Muslim Supremacy.

Now change the the word "Muslim" to "Aryan" and you got Nazi Germany

BTW, Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism.

1.) Are you admitting to Antisemitism?
2.) Your reasoning screams "antisemitic!!!".
Maybe you aren't professional in comprehension skills, but he said that he is not against Jews, but Zionism. If you understand the difference, you'll understand his position too.

It was a sarcastic joke because he said "Anti-Zionism = Antisemitism"
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 3:26:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 7:44:18 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/24/2012 5:43:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
http://www.debate.org... 3/24/2012 5:13:10 PM, DanT wrote:
Second Class citizenship is the same as Nazi Germany, only Islam did it first.
If you think that Jews in any Islamic society were treated like they were during Hitler's reign, then read some history Ma'am. The comparison is nonsensical.

You'll also have a hard time explaining how being a Jew is equivalent to being a second-class citizen in an Islamic society.

I already did explain it

Every Jewish power that ever held that region granted 1st class citizenship only to Muslims, and granted second class citizenship to non Muslims. This started under the Umayyad Caliphate, which had 4 social classes;
1. Muslim Arabs
2. Muslim non-Arabs
3. Non-Muslim free persons (Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians)
4. Slaves

Non-Muslims were granted second class citizenship on the condition that they acknowledge Muslim Supremacy.

Now change the the word "Muslim" to "Aryan" and you got Nazi Germany

My apologies for being blunt, I am afraid you are extremely confused.

In any Islamic country, it is natural that non-Muslims have to accept that they are living in a Islamic country. What it means is, at least the criminal laws will be handled as per Islamic law (which should not be a problem for Jews since Jewish and Islamic criminal laws are almost identical). Apart from that, they can practice there religion and live in peace.

This is the deal which has been available to Non-Muslims in Islamic country. Historically, it has been enthusiastically accepted by Jews without any complaint. In fact Jews usually had it better than other non-Muslims, since they are recognized as the People of Book by the Quran. (It is an honorable term which means educated and knowledgeable people. Naturally the reference is to the Holy Bible).

Not only have Jews always accepted this deal gladly, they have lived patriotically along with Muslims. In fact Jews continue to live happily in Iran even now.

Is this second class citizenship according to you?

The Nazi theory was much different. They hated Jews as human beings. The Aryans, according to them were more 'evolved'. They did not want Jews (or any one else) to exist in Germany so that they could have more 'living space' (Lebensraum).

Zionism is a theory that Israel belongs to Jews (to exclusion of everyone else). Apart from the fact that this thesis is against the Holy Bible, I don't see much difference between Zionists claiming sole ownership of Israel and Nazi wanting Lebensraum in Germany.

In my opinion, the Holy Land belongs to all humanity. I would like to see a joint Jewish and Islamic rule over there. I want Jerusalem to be a city of peace once again.

BTW, Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism.

1.) Are you admitting to Antisemitism?
2.) Your reasoning screams "antisemitic!!!".
Maybe you aren't professional in comprehension skills, but he said that he is not against Jews, but Zionism. If you understand the difference, you'll understand his position too.

It was a sarcastic joke because he said "Anti-Zionism = Antisemitism"

I admit, it might have been my mistake. I said, 'Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism'. '!=' means 'not equal to' in C++. I sometimes forget that not everyone is well versed with programming.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 3:34:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 5:13:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/24/2012 12:59:43 PM, baggins wrote:
I am sure, we would have some cases of problems over a period of over a millennium of shared history. On other hand the fair treatment of the people of the book is in special contrast to what was happening in so called 'Christian' countries who are the current Zionist ally.

Name a "christian country"; besides Vatican city.

I said so called Christian Countries. Looks like we agree that all of them are actually irreligious.

Naturally the welcome was over once they realized that the actual aim of Zionists.

sieg heil to you too

Why addressing me with a Nazi salute? I am not a Nazi or a Zionist. In fact, I detest both.

That sounded like Nazi Propaganda. Replace "Zionists" with "Jews", and you would be plagiarizing Hitler.

The aim of the Zionists is to exclude Muslims from Israel. Jews living in Germany were loyal to Germany. Please explain how I am 'plagiarizing Hitler'?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 4:02:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
baggins wrote:

The aim of the Zionists is to exclude Muslims from Israel.

Zionism is Jewish nationalism and nothing more. If Jews were sufficiently protected in Christian and Muslim societies, Zionism would likely never have manifested.

If the goal of Zionists is to exclude Muslims why are there many Muslims in Israel?
Why are they even allowed to be in the government?

After the 67 war Arabs living in the Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused.

If their goal was to exclude Muslims why was this even offered?

If Israel really wanted to be Muslim free - it would be so tomorrow.

Your comparison to Zionism and Naziism is ridiculous.

"In my opinion, the Holy Land belongs to all humanity. I would like to see a joint Jewish and Islamic rule over there. I want Jerusalem to be a city of peace once again."

Jerusalem has been more inclusive under Israel control.

In 1947 when the UN recommended Jerusalem become an international city, the Jewish Agency reluctantly agreed. The Arab states were as much opposed to this as the rest of partition plan.
Debate.org Moderator
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 6:17:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 7:44:18 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/24/2012 5:43:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 3/24/2012 5:13:10 PM, DanT wrote:
Second Class citizenship is the same as Nazi Germany, only Islam did it first.
If you think that Jews in any Islamic society were treated like they were during Hitler's reign, then read some history Ma'am. The comparison is nonsensical.

You'll also have a hard time explaining how being a Jew is equivalent to being a second-class citizen in an Islamic society.

I already did explain it

Every Jewish power that ever held that region granted 1st class citizenship only to Muslims, and granted second class citizenship to non Muslims. This started under the Umayyad Caliphate, which had 4 social classes;
1. Muslim Arabs
2. Muslim non-Arabs
3. Non-Muslim free persons (Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians)
4. Slaves

Non-Muslims were granted second class citizenship on the condition that they acknowledge Muslim Supremacy.
I have an idea: Define second class citizenship.

Now change the the word "Muslim" to "Aryan" and you got Nazi Germany
Nonsense. Jews were treated much worse than mere second class citizens in Nazi Germany. They were oppressed and slaughtered, treated as less worthy, weren't allowed to participate in politics, and much, much more. I can give you a history lesson of how Muslims saved Jews in Medieval Ages, and gave them rights that were on the same height as the rights of Muslims. You use one caliphate reign as an example, even though saying "Jews were lower ranked" doesn't give any detail about their lives back then.

BTW, Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism.

1.) Are you admitting to Antisemitism?
2.) Your reasoning screams "antisemitic!!!".
Maybe you aren't professional in comprehension skills, but he said that he is not against Jews, but Zionism. If you understand the difference, you'll understand his position too.

It was a sarcastic joke because he said "Anti-Zionism = Antisemitism"
No, he wrote != (which seemed ambiguous, but he clarified his position throughout his posts regardless).
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 6:19:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is the problem with you and lots of other Americans. You have little grasp of history that goes beyond your country and continent, and you base views on what the media tells you about Muslims and Jews. If any of you read some history, you'd come to know that for many centuries, Muslims and Jews had golden relations with one another, and that Muslims protected Jews like they protected their own kind. Of course, the American media doesn't give you these history lessons, but maybe you should spend some time taking them.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 7:00:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 6:19:17 AM, Mirza wrote:
This is the problem with you and lots of other Americans. You have little grasp of history that goes beyond your country and continent, and you base views on what the media tells you about Muslims and Jews. If any of you read some history, you'd come to know that for many centuries, Muslims and Jews had golden relations with one another, and that Muslims protected Jews like they protected their own kind. Of course, the American media doesn't give you these history lessons, but maybe you should spend some time taking them.

You insult every American's Education on history, yet you are the one who are factually wrong. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them uneducated
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 7:09:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 6:17:07 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 3/24/2012 7:44:18 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/24/2012 5:43:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 3/24/2012 5:13:10 PM, DanT wrote:
Second Class citizenship is the same as Nazi Germany, only Islam did it first.
If you think that Jews in any Islamic society were treated like they were during Hitler's reign, then read some history Ma'am. The comparison is nonsensical.

You'll also have a hard time explaining how being a Jew is equivalent to being a second-class citizen in an Islamic society.

I already did explain it

Every Jewish power that ever held that region granted 1st class citizenship only to Muslims, and granted second class citizenship to non Muslims. This started under the Umayyad Caliphate, which had 4 social classes;
1. Muslim Arabs
2. Muslim non-Arabs
3. Non-Muslim free persons (Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians)
4. Slaves

Non-Muslims were granted second class citizenship on the condition that they acknowledge Muslim Supremacy.
I have an idea: Define second class citizenship.

Not full citizenship, but still a citizen.

Now change the the word "Muslim" to "Aryan" and you got Nazi Germany
Nonsense. Jews were treated much worse than mere second class citizens in Nazi Germany. They were oppressed and slaughtered, treated as less worthy, weren't allowed to participate in politics, and much, much more.

Besides the slaughter part that's the same thing as what the islamic overlords did.
I can give you a history lesson of how Muslims saved Jews in Medieval Ages, and gave them rights that were on the same height as the rights of Muslims. You use one caliphate reign as an example, even though saying "Jews were lower ranked" doesn't give any detail about their lives back then.

Im not going to go down the list of every Islamic government that ever ruled in the region. They all had pretty much the same policy.

You need to open a history book and stop siding with the Islamic states simply because of your religion. That kinda thinking is how jihadists are born.
BTW, Anti-Zionism != Antisemitism.

1.) Are you admitting to Antisemitism?
2.) Your reasoning screams "antisemitic!!!".
Maybe you aren't professional in comprehension skills, but he said that he is not against Jews, but Zionism. If you understand the difference, you'll understand his position too.

It was a sarcastic joke because he said "Anti-Zionism = Antisemitism"
No, he wrote != (which seemed ambiguous, but he clarified his position throughout his posts regardless).

Again in was a sarcastic joke.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 1:14:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 4:02:31 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
baggins wrote:

The aim of the Zionists is to exclude Muslims from Israel.

Zionism is Jewish nationalism and nothing more...

Judaism is a religion. What is Jewish Nationalism? Aren't Jews patriotic towards the countries they live in? Or do you mean Israeli nationalism? I am sure you are aware that Zionism is older than Israel? Moreover, if Zionism is 'Jewish' nationalism, is upholding commandments considered a part of goals of Zionism? Why were founders of Zionist movement atheist?

...If Jews were sufficiently protected in Christian and Muslim societies, Zionism would likely never have manifested.

Which Muslim country failed to 'sufficiently protect' Jews? In the meantime, I expect DanT will be asking you for a list of Christian countries.

If the goal of Zionists is to exclude Muslims why are there many Muslims in Israel?
Why are they even allowed to be in the government?

After the 67 war Arabs living in the Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused.

If their goal was to exclude Muslims why was this even offered?

If Israel really wanted to be Muslim free - it would be so tomorrow.

Your comparison to Zionism and Naziism is ridiculous.

So enlighten us, what are the goals of Zionism about future of Israel / Palestine with regards to Arabs, specially with regard to refugees living in Palestinian territories? Do Zionists want a common countries for Jews and Muslims, with equitable rights and duties?

"In my opinion, the Holy Land belongs to all humanity. I would like to see a joint Jewish and Islamic rule over there. I want Jerusalem to be a city of peace once again."

Jerusalem has been more inclusive under Israel control.

Compared to when? On what basis?

In 1947 when the UN recommended Jerusalem become an international city, the Jewish Agency reluctantly agreed. The Arab states were as much opposed to this as the rest of partition plan.

What is the significance of an 'international city'? How does that make Jerusalem more inclusive for Palestinians?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 1:19:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You know, I would have a lot more simpathy for Palestines, if they haven't resorted to suicides bombings, and killing of mass amounts of innocents.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 2:23:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 1:14:30 PM, baggins wrote:
At 3/25/2012 4:02:31 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
baggins wrote:

The aim of the Zionists is to exclude Muslims from Israel.

Zionism is Jewish nationalism and nothing more...

Judaism is a religion. What is Jewish Nationalism? Aren't Jews patriotic towards the countries they live in? Or do you mean Israeli nationalism?
Zionism is a movement in favor of creating a Jewish National home, to serve as a safe heaven from antisemitism. After the state of Israel was established Zionism became a movement in favor of Israel's existence, and and against threats to the continued existence of Israel.

according to Jewish law one is Jewish if their mother is Jewish, regardless of their religion. Being Jewish is more than belonging to a religion.

I am sure you are aware that Zionism is older than Israel? Moreover, if Zionism is 'Jewish' nationalism, is upholding commandments considered a part of goals of Zionism? Why were founders of Zionist movement atheist?

Rabbi Judah Bibas and Rabbi Judah Alkala were atheists? Interesting....

...If Jews were sufficiently protected in Christian and Muslim societies, Zionism would likely never have manifested.

Which Muslim country failed to 'sufficiently protect' Jews? In the meantime, I expect DanT will be asking you for a list of Christian countries.

The only present day Christian country is Vatican City. Unless you know of another, in which case please enlighten me on the country's name and how it's a christian state.

If the goal of Zionists is to exclude Muslims why are there many Muslims in Israel?
Why are they even allowed to be in the government?

After the 67 war Arabs living in the Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused.

If their goal was to exclude Muslims why was this even offered?

If Israel really wanted to be Muslim free - it would be so tomorrow.

Your comparison to Zionism and Naziism is ridiculous.

So enlighten us, what are the goals of Zionism about future of Israel / Palestine with regards to Arabs, specially with regard to refugees living in Palestinian territories? Do Zionists want a common countries for Jews and Muslims, with equitable rights and duties?

"In my opinion, the Holy Land belongs to all humanity. I would like to see a joint Jewish and Islamic rule over there. I want Jerusalem to be a city of peace once again."

Jerusalem has been more inclusive under Israel control.

Compared to when? On what basis?

For one Muslims and Christians have full citizenship.

In 1947 when the UN recommended Jerusalem become an international city, the Jewish Agency reluctantly agreed. The Arab states were as much opposed to this as the rest of partition plan.

What is the significance of an 'international city'? How does that make Jerusalem more inclusive for Palestinians?

Jerusalem would belong to the world, not just one nation. Are you illiterate? How do you not know what "international" means?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/25/2012 2:39:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 1:14:30 PM, baggins wrote:
At 3/25/2012 4:02:31 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
baggins wrote:

The aim of the Zionists is to exclude Muslims from Israel.

Zionism is Jewish nationalism and nothing more...

Judaism is a religion. What is Jewish Nationalism? Aren't Jews patriotic towards the countries they live in? Or do you mean Israeli nationalism? I am sure you are aware that Zionism is older than Israel? Moreover, if Zionism is 'Jewish' nationalism, is upholding commandments considered a part of goals of Zionism? Why were founders of Zionist movement atheist?

being 'Jewish' is an ethnic and cultural identity as well as a religious one. One can be Jewish without ascribing any religious belief to them self, and many Jews are agnostic or atheistic.

I don't see the relevance of whether or not Jews are patriotic to the countries they live in. Some probably are, some probably aren't.

Obviously Zionism is older than Israel. The idea of a Jewish home land had to exist before the modern state could exist.

Upholding the commandments isn't a particular goal of Zionism. The sole goal is the establishment of a Jewish homeland.

You would have to ask the founders why they were atheists.

...If Jews were sufficiently protected in Christian and Muslim societies, Zionism would likely never have manifested.

Which Muslim country failed to 'sufficiently protect' Jews? In the meantime, I expect DanT will be asking you for a list of Christian countries.

Here's a few examples of Jews not being protected in a Muslim society:
Following the Almohads control of Islamic Iberia by 1172, Jews were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain.
In 1465 mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews.
In 1656 the Shah expelled the Jews from Isfahan.
There are lots of examples of forced conversions, pogroms and general animosity directed towards Jews from populations in Muslim countries.

I don't really think it was necessary for me to give examples though, many are well documented, and it often does a disservice to the historical record of Jews being well treated and thriving in Muslim countries, especially following the inquisition in Spain where Jews absorbed and thrived in Muslim countries.

Besides, It's not specific to Muslim countries, Christian countries, or even Jews that are unprotected. For the most part, any minority group living anywhere is at similar risk. I am just as much supportive of any minority group establishing a state where they would be able to protect themselves.


If the goal of Zionists is to exclude Muslims why are there many Muslims in Israel?
Why are they even allowed to be in the government?

After the 67 war Arabs living in the Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused.

If their goal was to exclude Muslims why was this even offered?

If Israel really wanted to be Muslim free - it would be so tomorrow.

Your comparison to Zionism and Naziism is ridiculous.

So enlighten us, what are the goals of Zionism about future of Israel / Palestine with regards to Arabs, specially with regard to refugees living in Palestinian territories? Do Zionists want a common countries for Jews and Muslims, with equitable rights and duties?

Zionism is irrelevant, the Jewish homeland is already established. The goals of Israel's government for the future of its nation are not unlike those of any other nation. Peace, prosperity and security.

I don't speak for the Israeli government nor it's citizens, but if Israel's neighbors were to accept Israel as the legitimate nation that it is, renounce the belief that it's existence is a 'catastrophe' that must be resisted against eternally, then a level of cultural reconciliation could begin. If current realities on the ground did not exists I believe Israelis and Muslims would peacefully coexist in Israel, as Israelis and Muslims both would prefer. As opposed to the constant struggle to antagonize it.


"In my opinion, the Holy Land belongs to all humanity. I would like to see a joint Jewish and Islamic rule over there. I want Jerusalem to be a city of peace once again."

Jerusalem has been more inclusive under Israel control.

Compared to when? On what basis?

Compared to Jordanian control prior to the 67 war. Now all three major religions have more access to their holy sites.


In 1947 when the UN recommended Jerusalem become an international city, the Jewish Agency reluctantly agreed. The Arab states were as much opposed to this as the rest of partition plan.

What is the significance of an 'international city'? How does that make Jerusalem more inclusive for Palestinians?

Well, in 1947 if someone said 'Palestinians' they were generally referring to Jews living in the region, so an international city would have given the rights of Jerusalem from the British, to both the Palestinians (Jews living in the region of Palestine) and the Arabs of the region (and anyone else). And all would have equal access to it. Unfortunately the wars soon to follow stopped that idea at the outset, and the eventual winner took control exclusively.
Debate.org Moderator
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/26/2012 11:35:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 2:39:49 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/25/2012 1:14:30 PM, baggins wrote:
At 3/25/2012 4:02:31 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Zionism is Jewish nationalism and nothing more...

Judaism is a religion. What is Jewish Nationalism? Aren't Jews patriotic towards the countries they live in? Or do you mean Israeli nationalism? I am sure you are aware that Zionism is older than Israel? Moreover, if Zionism is 'Jewish' nationalism, is upholding commandments considered a part of goals of Zionism? Why were founders of Zionist movement atheist?

being 'Jewish' is an ethnic and cultural identity as well as a religious one. One can be Jewish without ascribing any religious belief to them self, and many Jews are agnostic or atheistic.

I don't see the relevance of whether or not Jews are patriotic to the countries they live in. Some probably are, some probably aren't.

Obviously Zionism is older than Israel. The idea of a Jewish home land had to exist before the modern state could exist.

Upholding the commandments isn't a particular goal of Zionism. The sole goal is the establishment of a Jewish homeland.

You would have to ask the founders why they were atheists.

If Jews claim to be Jews based on ethnic identity, without following the faith of Judaism, there are several problems.

First of all, the culture of Judaism is linked to the religion of Judaism, which is linked to obeying the Torah. Under Jewish law the punishment for violating the first commandment is death.

Further, Jews are recognized as a respectable community by Muslims. In Quran Allah confirms that God had made a promise to children of Abraham (Peace on Him). However this promise is once again dependent on upholding the commandments. Thus an atheist Jew, is not a Jew as far as Muslims are concerned.

In the Holy Bible, it is confirmed that when Zion will be established, it will be done with the cooperation of gentiles (which is what Jews call Non-Jews as) and that it will be place of peace. It is clear that Israel has no connection to any promise in Bible. The fact that Zionism is not concerned with religion only reemphasizes that.

Moreover if Jews of Isreal do not follow Judaism, then they do not have any religious claim to Jerusalem or rest of Palestine. Palestine is no ordinary place. It is the home of countless messengers of Allah. If a community of atheists need a homeland, it should not be Jerusalem.

Suppose Caucasians decide that they want a 'Caucasian Homeland'. Or Blacks want a 'Black country'. Or Brahmins want a 'Brahmin nation'. Or Aryans want a 'Aryan Home'. All these communities have a ethnic identity. Moreover they are spread all over the world and do not exist in a single place. We will be justified in considering them as 'racist'. If Jews have an 'ethnic' identity (rather than religious one), then how are they different from Nazis?

...If Jews were sufficiently protected in Christian and Muslim societies, Zionism would likely never have manifested.

Which Muslim country failed to 'sufficiently protect' Jews? In the meantime, I expect DanT will be asking you for a list of Christian countries.

Here's a few examples of Jews not being protected in a Muslim society:
Following the Almohads control of Islamic Iberia by 1172, Jews were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain.
In 1465 mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews.
In 1656 the Shah expelled the Jews from Isfahan.
There are lots of examples of forced conversions, pogroms and general animosity directed towards Jews from populations in Muslim countries.

I don't really think it was necessary for me to give examples though, many are well documented, and it often does a disservice to the historical record of Jews being well treated and thriving in Muslim countries, especially following the inquisition in Spain where Jews absorbed and thrived in Muslim countries.

Besides, It's not specific to Muslim countries, Christian countries, or even Jews that are unprotected. For the most part, any minority group living anywhere is at similar risk. I am just as much supportive of any minority group establishing a state where they would be able to protect themselves.

You yourself answered what I would have answered. Let me submit that Zionism cannot be justified on basis of treatment of Jews in Muslim countries.


If the goal of Zionists is to exclude Muslims why are there many Muslims in Israel?
Why are they even allowed to be in the government?

After the 67 war Arabs living in the Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused.

If their goal was to exclude Muslims why was this even offered?

If Israel really wanted to be Muslim free - it would be so tomorrow.

Your comparison to Zionism and Naziism is ridiculous.

So enlighten us, what are the goals of Zionism about future of Israel / Palestine with regards to Arabs, specially with regard to refugees living in Palestinian territories? Do Zionists want a common countries for Jews and Muslims, with equitable rights and duties?

Zionism is irrelevant, the Jewish homeland is already established. The goals of Israel's government for the future of its nation are not unlike those of any other nation. Peace, prosperity and security.

I don't speak for the Israeli government nor it's citizens, but if Israel's neighbors were to accept Israel as the legitimate nation that it is, renounce the belief that it's existence is a 'catastrophe' that must be resisted against eternally, then a level of cultural reconciliation could begin. If current realities on the ground did not exists I believe Israelis and Muslims would peacefully coexist in Israel, as Israelis and Muslims both would prefer. As opposed to the constant struggle to antagonize it.

I suspect you have evaded the question. Let me rephrase it in light of your statement. Assuming that all countries in Arab 'recognize' Israel, what will happen to the people of Palestine? Will Israelis share power with them on equitable basis?

"In my opinion, the Holy Land belongs to all humanity. I would like to see a joint Jewish and Islamic rule over there. I want Jerusalem to be a city of peace once again."

Jerusalem has been more inclusive under Israel control.

Compared to when? On what basis?

Compared to Jordanian control prior to the 67 war. Now all three major religions have more access to their holy sites.

But not compared to Ottoman control before 1917!


In 1947 when the UN recommended Jerusalem become an international city, the Jewish Agency reluctantly agreed. The Arab states were as much opposed to this as the rest of partition plan.

What is the significance of an 'international city'? How does that make Jerusalem more inclusive for Palestinians?

Well, in 1947 if someone said 'Palestinians' they were generally referring to Jews living in the region, so an international city would have given the rights of Jerusalem from the British, to both the Palestinians (Jews living in the region of Palestine) and the Arabs of the region (and anyone else). And all would have equal access to it. Unfortunately the wars soon to follow stopped that idea at the outset, and the eventual winner took control exclusively.

I guess I have nothing to say to that.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.