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How do you define left and right

OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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3/27/2012 10:39:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Progressive, Liberal = Left

Conservative, Libertarian = Right

Thats a pretty basic idea of it, but I think its pretty much true.
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Grape
Posts: 989
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3/27/2012 12:31:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't think it's useful to do is. It belies the fact that political disagreements can be, and usually are, multifaceted.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/27/2012 3:17:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 10:39:54 AM, OberHerr wrote:
Progressive, Liberal = Left

Conservative, Libertarian = Right

Thats a pretty basic idea of it, but I think its pretty much true.

I define the Left as Reformist, an right as traditionalist.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/27/2012 3:47:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Right: Global Fascist Dictatorship

Left: Global Communist Dictatorship
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/27/2012 3:48:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 3:47:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Right: Global Fascist Dictatorship

Left: Global Communist Dictatorship

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"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/27/2012 3:48:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 10:39:54 AM, OberHerr wrote:
Progressive, Liberal = Left

Conservative, Libertarian = Right

Thats a pretty basic idea of it, but I think its pretty much true.

Completely and utterly FALSE. The Right is Libertarian as opposed to Left? C'mon, give me a break. The Left is non-interventionist, pro-drug legalization. The Right wants to control everyone's social life.

Neither Left nor Right deserves to be described as Libertarian.

The left is Social Libertarian, Economic Authoritarian.
The right is Social Authoritarian, Economic Libertarian.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
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3/27/2012 3:48:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My left side is the one with the hand that can make my index finger and thumb in the shape of an L. My right side is the other side.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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Lickdafoot
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3/27/2012 4:23:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 9:23:25 AM, DanT wrote:
How do you define left and right?

2 groups of monkeys flinging poo at each other, calling the other group a pile of poo. and a select group of sadistic monkeys in the corner, pointing and laughing at them, knowing that the poo will smell just as stinky no matter which group wins the poo fight.
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imabench
Posts: 21,206
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3/27/2012 4:35:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 4:23:09 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/27/2012 9:23:25 AM, DanT wrote:
How do you define left and right?

2 groups of monkeys flinging poo at each other, calling the other group a pile of poo. and a select group of sadistic monkeys in the corner, pointing and laughing at them, knowing that the poo will smell just as stinky no matter which group wins the poo fight.

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Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/27/2012 4:52:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 10:39:54 AM, OberHerr wrote:
Progressive, Liberal = Left

Conservative, Libertarian = Right

Thats a pretty basic idea of it, but I think its pretty much true.

Except libertarian is down, and many are leftwing (only in America do you have a party called the libertarians, who are more focused on being right wing than actually libertarian [and UK but history is important on that issue]).

You have social left and right wingers, as well as economic left and right wingers. You have conservatism able to be both left and right, labour government being both left and right, nationalists to place, anarchists... the system fails in a modern, multipolitical-philosophy and multiparty world.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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RoyLatham
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3/28/2012 1:31:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the left-right distinction is mostly determined by belief in how much the government should control the economy. Traditional Communism and Socialism operate through direct control of production. Modern leftism works through regulations that impose controls. The US government issues 10,000 pages of new regulations per month attempting to control every small detail of how and what can be done.

The right in the US does tend to want controls on abortion and such, but it's possible to be on the right and be liberal on social issues. Barry Goldwater was pro-abortion, Bill Buckley favored the legalization of marijuana, and so forth. Neither lost right-wing credentials as a result. I don't think it is possible to be considered a leftist and be opposed to abortion or any of a list of leftist social mandates. I don't know as much about European leftists; maybe Italian communists are allowed to b anti-abortion. In any case it's government control of the economy that's the left-right distinction.

There are distinctions between conservatives and libertarians, but their economic views put them both on the right. Conservatives believe in evolutionary change; libertarians often believe in radical change. Conservatives believe in absolute morality; libertarians may or may not subscribe to that. Libertarians are dogmatic on social issues.
Contra
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3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
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3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.
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Contra
Posts: 3,941
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3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/29/2012 6:14:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.

Again, you didn't change anything. The collective is a group of individuals

abortion isn't a libertarian issue but rather an issue of when personhood starts. If personhood starts as a fetus, then its an act of aggression. Libertarians have been pro-life.
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DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/29/2012 7:19:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 6:14:14 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.

Again, you didn't change anything. The collective is a group of individuals

abortion isn't a libertarian issue but rather an issue of when personhood starts. If personhood starts as a fetus, then its an act of aggression. Libertarians have been pro-life.

Saying the individual is no different than the collective is like saying that flower is no different than cake.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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3/29/2012 7:51:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 7:19:41 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:14:14 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.

Again, you didn't change anything. The collective is a group of individuals

abortion isn't a libertarian issue but rather an issue of when personhood starts. If personhood starts as a fetus, then its an act of aggression. Libertarians have been pro-life.

Saying the individual is no different than the collective is like saying that flower is no different than cake.

You guys don't get it. A liberal may value the collective over the individual over taxes (higher taxes to help society, rather than a guy getting a tax cut.) A conservative may value the individual over the collective when it comes to welfare (people should support themselves, rather than paying more taxes to help others).
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/29/2012 8:15:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 7:51:45 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 7:19:41 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:14:14 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.

Again, you didn't change anything. The collective is a group of individuals

abortion isn't a libertarian issue but rather an issue of when personhood starts. If personhood starts as a fetus, then its an act of aggression. Libertarians have been pro-life.

Saying the individual is no different than the collective is like saying that flower is no different than cake.

You guys don't get it. A liberal may value the collective over the individual over taxes (higher taxes to help society, rather than a guy getting a tax cut.) A conservative may value the individual over the collective when it comes to welfare (people should support themselves, rather than paying more taxes to help others).

I know what you're trying to say, I just think the statement is silly. Really you believe that the best way to help others is a top down approach, while mine is a down up approach. That's the difference. There's no "one wants to help society, one wants to help the individual". We both want the same thing. However, you think central planning at the societal level will help the individual, while I think liberty at the individual level will benefit society.
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1Historygenius
Posts: 1,639
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3/29/2012 8:58:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Simple their directions. One goes one way the other goes another way.
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
Contra
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3/29/2012 9:12:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 8:15:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 7:51:45 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 7:19:41 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:14:14 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.

Again, you didn't change anything. The collective is a group of individuals

abortion isn't a libertarian issue but rather an issue of when personhood starts. If personhood starts as a fetus, then its an act of aggression. Libertarians have been pro-life.

Saying the individual is no different than the collective is like saying that flower is no different than cake.

You guys don't get it. A liberal may value the collective over the individual over taxes (higher taxes to help society, rather than a guy getting a tax cut.) A conservative may value the individual over the collective when it comes to welfare (people should support themselves, rather than paying more taxes to help others).

I know what you're trying to say, I just think the statement is silly. Really you believe that the best way to help others is a top down approach, while mine is a down up approach. That's the difference. There's no "one wants to help society, one wants to help the individual". We both want the same thing. However, you think central planning at the societal level will help the individual, while I think liberty at the individual level will benefit society.

Top-down. Trickle down lol. You are somewhat accurate, but I don't really believe that central planning sounds attractive as a selling point. That sounds like a Socialist point. As a progressive, I believe that the government can facilitate a stronger, broader prosperity. You basically are supporting individualism. So, I think we understand what we are saying here.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/29/2012 10:06:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 9:12:21 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 8:15:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 7:51:45 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 7:19:41 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:14:14 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.

Again, you didn't change anything. The collective is a group of individuals

abortion isn't a libertarian issue but rather an issue of when personhood starts. If personhood starts as a fetus, then its an act of aggression. Libertarians have been pro-life.

Saying the individual is no different than the collective is like saying that flower is no different than cake.

You guys don't get it. A liberal may value the collective over the individual over taxes (higher taxes to help society, rather than a guy getting a tax cut.) A conservative may value the individual over the collective when it comes to welfare (people should support themselves, rather than paying more taxes to help others).

I know what you're trying to say, I just think the statement is silly. Really you believe that the best way to help others is a top down approach, while mine is a down up approach. That's the difference. There's no "one wants to help society, one wants to help the individual". We both want the same thing. However, you think central planning at the societal level will help the individual, while I think liberty at the individual level will benefit society.

Top-down. Trickle down lol. You are somewhat accurate, but I don't really believe that central planning sounds attractive as a selling point. That sounds like a Socialist point. As a progressive, I believe that the government can facilitate a stronger, broader prosperity. You basically are supporting individualism. So, I think we understand what we are saying here.

You don't believe in complete central planning, but you do believe in some of it though. Most people aren't 100% capitalist, except for ancap (even many libertarians believe in centralized law and centralized security).
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/29/2012 10:10:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 10:07:08 PM, nonentity wrote:
Perspective.

Obama is considered "left" to you guys but he wouldn't be considered that in Canada.

This

I consider Obama to be conservative.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/29/2012 10:18:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 10:12:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I consider Obama to be only slightly more left than GW.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think your Democratic Party is more like our Conservative Party. Our parties go a lot more left than that---Liberal, Bloc Quebecois (for separation), NDP, Green. But your "left" party is more equivalent to our "right" lol
Contra
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3/29/2012 10:26:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 10:06:50 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 9:12:21 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 8:15:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 7:51:45 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 7:19:41 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:14:14 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 6:11:30 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:58:10 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/29/2012 5:25:20 PM, Contra wrote:
The left values the society over the individual.

The right values the individual over society.

The further along the scale, the more their ideology is shown.

That distinction makes no sense because society is made up of a collection of individuals. They're the same thing.

I meant that the left values the collective over the individual, while the right favors the individual over the collective.

However, both the Democrats and GOP have some libertarian views, for Democrats it may be the abortion issue, for the GOP it may be gun rights.

Again, you didn't change anything. The collective is a group of individuals

abortion isn't a libertarian issue but rather an issue of when personhood starts. If personhood starts as a fetus, then its an act of aggression. Libertarians have been pro-life.

Saying the individual is no different than the collective is like saying that flower is no different than cake.

You guys don't get it. A liberal may value the collective over the individual over taxes (higher taxes to help society, rather than a guy getting a tax cut.) A conservative may value the individual over the collective when it comes to welfare (people should support themselves, rather than paying more taxes to help others).

I know what you're trying to say, I just think the statement is silly. Really you believe that the best way to help others is a top down approach, while mine is a down up approach. That's the difference. There's no "one wants to help society, one wants to help the individual". We both want the same thing. However, you think central planning at the societal level will help the individual, while I think liberty at the individual level will benefit society.

Top-down. Trickle down lol. You are somewhat accurate, but I don't really believe that central planning sounds attractive as a selling point. That sounds like a Socialist point. As a progressive, I believe that the government can facilitate a stronger, broader prosperity. You basically are supporting individualism. So, I think we understand what we are saying here.

You don't believe in complete central planning, but you do believe in some of it though. Most people aren't 100% capitalist, except for ancap (even many libertarians believe in centralized law and centralized security).

Yes this is right.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/29/2012 10:41:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 10:18:51 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/29/2012 10:12:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I consider Obama to be only slightly more left than GW.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think your Democratic Party is more like our Conservative Party. Our parties go a lot more left than that---Liberal, Bloc Quebecois (for separation), NDP, Green. But your "left" party is more equivalent to our "right" lol

In many ways the United States has more liberal policies then Canada. According to the economic freedom index, Canada has more economic freedom. Very good with business freedoms and fiscal freedoms. Only spends slightly higher then the United States for government spending. United States also has one of the highest corporate tax rate in the world and has the most progressive tax systems in the world as well. US also has an actually quite regulated financial system as well compared to other nations.For example, all industrial nations bank savings can go into stock and other riskier investment. US bank savings can only go into bonds. And the United States does have socialized medicine. It's just a different system then other nations. The poor and old are covered by medicaid and medicare respectfully.

http://www.heritage.org...
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Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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3/29/2012 10:50:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I usually say that:

Right = More authoritarian ideologies.

Middle = Moderates

Left = Less to no authoritarianism.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."