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God and Free will

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2012 11:35:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

Obviously he's testing a quality of each spirit. Those who possess this quality God seeks will obey his rules despite their physical freedom not to. Those who possess a "bad" quality will disobey those laws.

However, God places himself in a double bind. Is he not the one that GAVE us that quality of the spirit that made us choose to obey or disobey? So, we reach two conclusions. 1) it's God's fault for making creatures with no free will. OR 2) It's God's fault for making creatures with freewill but pre-determined spirits.

Either way,...it's God's fault. Sounds like predestination to me.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/31/2012 11:36:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
isn't free will contradictory to a omniscient god?
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
000ike
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3/31/2012 11:36:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
sorry about this, this should be in the religion section
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
16kadams
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3/31/2012 11:36:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:36:22 AM, 000ike wrote:
sorry about this, this should be in the religion section

to late
;p
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/31/2012 11:39:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why do people care so much about religion?

It's actually pathetic.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/31/2012 11:40:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:39:02 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why do people care so much about religion?

It's actually pathetic.

lol I kinda agree
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2012 11:43:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:39:02 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why do people care so much about religion?

It's actually pathetic.

because people try to spread their religion and use it to control the law and moral behavior of society. Religion for most people goes unquestioningly obeyed, and thus suppresses rational inquisition.

It is important for society to veer towards secularism because it will facilitate our progression and knowledge of the world. We still have may religious people fighting the teaching of evolution. They're obviously a cancer that needs to be removed.

That's why I care. Otherwise, I wouldn't.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
16kadams
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3/31/2012 11:53:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I sense ike LK flame war
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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3/31/2012 11:53:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:53:20 AM, 16kadams wrote:
I sense an ike & LK flame war
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2012 11:54:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:53:20 AM, 16kadams wrote:
I sense ike LK flame war

Lordknuckle is an agnostic not a Christian. There was nothing unfriendly in his comment, or my response. You're just instigating things, so be quiet.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
16kadams
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3/31/2012 11:56:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:54:39 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 11:53:20 AM, 16kadams wrote:
I sense ike LK flame war

Lordknuckle is an agnostic not a Christian. There was nothing unfriendly in his comment, or my response. You're just instigating things, so be quiet.

Have you seen how easily this can get derailed? Anyway. Bye.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/31/2012 11:58:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:35:05 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

Obviously he's testing a quality of each spirit. Those who possess this quality God seeks will obey his rules despite their physical freedom not to. Those who possess a "bad" quality will disobey those laws.

However, God places himself in a double bind. Is he not the one that GAVE us that quality of the spirit that made us choose to obey or disobey? So, we reach two conclusions. 1) it's God's fault for making creatures with no free will. OR 2) It's God's fault for making creatures with freewill but pre-determined spirits.

Either way,...it's God's fault. Sounds like predestination to me.

2 things need to be more clearly defined;
1.) God
2.) Free Will
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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3/31/2012 12:01:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:35:05 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

He gave us free will out of respect. Free will = freedom.
Rules would not be needed if free will did not exist
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2012 12:02:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:01:17 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2012 11:35:05 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

He gave us free will out of respect. Free will = freedom.
Rules would not be needed if free will did not exist

And why does free will exist if rules are needed? Why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
Posts: 14,339
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3/31/2012 12:37:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is the difference between having people follow your rules voluntarily or forcing them to obey at the point of a gun.

Ike, if you had children would you want them to follow your rules because they genuinely respect you, or because you force them to?
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DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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3/31/2012 2:17:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:37:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
It is the difference between having people follow your rules voluntarily or forcing them to obey at the point of a gun.

Ike, if you had children would you want them to follow your rules because they genuinely respect you, or because you force them to?

The analogy doesn't follow, in my opinion--provided we are talking about the conventional forms of God (ie, Abrahamic).

A more accurate analogy would be that you want your children to follow your rules because they genuinely respect you. And if they don't, then you torture them until they die--but they never die.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Vitreous
Posts: 173
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4/2/2012 2:13:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:39:02 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Why do people care so much about religion?

It's actually pathetic.

It's just fun to poke holes in a religious belief
"I don't even know what that means"
"No one knows what it means but its provocative"
"No it's not, it's..."
"It gets the people GOING!!!"
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/2/2012 1:37:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:02:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:01:17 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2012 11:35:05 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

He gave us free will out of respect. Free will = freedom.
Rules would not be needed if free will did not exist

And why does free will exist if rules are needed? Why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?...

It's a sign of respect. This is the same reason I have always hated the term "God fearing". If one is forced, or coerced to do good, the good deed is less meaningful. If one is forced to follow the rules, following the rules becomes less meaningful. It means more to be given the freedom to make the wrong choice, but to make the right choice instead. It is my understanding of the bible, that God gave us free will as a sign of respect. God respectfully allowed us to make mistakes, ask for forgiveness, and learn from our mistakes.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/2/2012 1:37:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 1:37:05 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:02:44 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:01:17 PM, DanT wrote:
At 3/31/2012 11:35:05 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

He gave us free will out of respect. Free will = freedom.
Rules would not be needed if free will did not exist

And why does free will exist if rules are needed? Why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?...

It's a sign of respect. This is the same reason I have always hated the term "God fearing". If one is forced, or coerced to do good, the good deed is less meaningful. If one is forced to follow the rules, following the rules becomes less meaningful. It means more to be given the freedom to make the wrong choice, but to make the right choice instead. It is my understanding of the bible, that God gave us free will as a sign of respect. God respectfully allowed us to make mistakes, ask for forgiveness, and learn from our mistakes.

Note: I'm Buddhist, but I was born Christian.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle