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Rebellion

Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/14/2009 7:28:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I have a question. Is rebellion, as in an attempt to forcibly overthrow a government, ever justified? What is your opinion?

Personally, I say no. But I would greatly like to hear other opinions.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/14/2009 7:33:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:28:43 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
I have a question. Is rebellion, as in an attempt to forcibly overthrow a government, ever justified? What is your opinion?

Personally, I say no. But I would greatly like to hear other opinions.

Anything can be justified from any view point.

Are you willing to say that the American Revolution wasn't justified?

What about the Russian and French revolutions? Is there no justification at all for these events?

It may not be justified when you're the one being rebelled against, but for those that are rebelling, it is completely justified.
LB628
Posts: 176
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7/14/2009 7:34:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yes. At the point where the government has become overly restrictive of freedoms, refuses to obey the will of the people, and in short, becomes a dictatorship, it loses any legitimacy, and rebellion is justified.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/14/2009 7:37:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
In any government that's ever existed so far, if you can pull it off and you aren't empowering thugs worse than the current ones.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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7/14/2009 7:43:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
If the people rebel against the government, the government shouldn't have existed in the first place, according to the Declaration of Independence.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/14/2009 7:44:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:33:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
Anything can be justified from any view point.

Perhaps 'justified' was not the correct word. I meant something more along the lines of "is rebellion ever the right decision to make?"

Are you willing to say that the American Revolution wasn't justified?

Justified, yes, the correct choice? No.
*Braces for verbal barrage*

What about the Russian and French revolutions? Is there no justification at all for these events?

See above.

It may not be justified when you're the one being rebelled against, but for those that are rebelling, it is completely justified.

Not always.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/14/2009 7:51:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:44:45 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
Perhaps 'justified' was not the correct word. I meant something more along the lines of "is rebellion ever the right decision to make?"

For some, it is the only choice to make. Does it make it right? Not necessarily - but 'right' and necessity don't always go together.

Justified, yes, the correct choice? No.
*Braces for verbal barrage*

In lieu of the lives lost, damage to property, families and etc., it wasn't the right choice. In lieu of the situation, and the options available, it was probably the only effective choice.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/14/2009 7:53:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:34:28 PM, LB628 wrote:
Yes. At the point where the government has become overly restrictive of freedoms, refuses to obey the will of the people, and in short, becomes a dictatorship, it loses any legitimacy, and rebellion is justified.

If the government is evil and preys upon its citizens, then rebellion is not the right course of action. The people can defend each other, but they should not attack and overthrow the government. It would likely destroy more lives than it would save, and it is very unlikely that they would even accomplish anything.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/14/2009 7:55:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:53:30 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
If the government is evil and preys upon its citizens, then rebellion is not the right course of action. The people can defend each other, but they should not attack and overthrow the government. It would likely destroy more lives than it would save, and it is very unlikely that they would even accomplish anything.

Rebellion may not be the right course, but is may be the only course.

Besides, you have the decide on the justifications. Do we continue to suffer and live, or die for the chance to have freedom, or for our children to have freedom?

If it was possible through laws and courts and all that sort of stuff, of course rebellion isn't needed - but, often times this isn't the case in many cases.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/14/2009 7:57:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:51:00 PM, Volkov wrote:
For some, it is the only choice to make. Does it make it right? Not necessarily - but 'right' and necessity don't always go together.

There is always another choice. Dying would be among them.

In lieu of the lives lost, damage to property, families and etc., it wasn't the right choice. In lieu of the situation, and the options available, it was probably the only effective choice.

People can defend themselves without rebelling against the government.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Volkov
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7/14/2009 8:00:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:57:27 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
There is always another choice. Dying would be among them.

For many people, that isn't a viable choice. They also care for their children, and for their friends, family, etc. - rebellion on such a scale is rarely about the individual.

People can defend themselves without rebelling against the government.

The only way to defend yourself against an oppressive government without rebellion is to comply - that isn't an option for many.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/14/2009 8:09:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:55:45 PM, Volkov wrote:
Rebellion may not be the right course, but is may be the only course.

Not so. Defending yourself is not rebellion, at least in the sense we are talking about. Also, people can always leave the country, by any means if necessary.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/14/2009 8:11:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 8:00:58 PM, Volkov wrote:
The only way to defend yourself against an oppressive government without rebellion is to comply - that isn't an option for many.

That's not the type of rebellion we are talking about.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Volkov
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7/14/2009 8:11:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 8:09:53 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
Not so. Defending yourself is not rebellion, at least in the sense we are talking about. Also, people can always leave the country, by any means if necessary.

These may not be options that are available to them, for various reasons.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/14/2009 8:14:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 8:11:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
These may not be options that are available to them, for various reasons.

Could you give examples?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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7/14/2009 9:23:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:28:43 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
I have a question. Is rebellion, as in an attempt to forcibly overthrow a government, ever justified? What is your opinion?

Governments run on taxes.
Taxation is theft and taxation is terrorism.
The only power a government has, the only thing that makes an organization a government, according to President Obama, is the "monopoly on violence". The monopoly of the initiation of use of force.

The initiation of the use of force is always evil.
Therefore, violent rebellion is justified at any and every point in time.

I am done.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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7/14/2009 9:23:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Lifeisgood, define "the right action".

Do you mean "the best action"? The most ethical? By what standards?

Assuming the goal is to replace a corrupt government, then rebellion is the right action.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/14/2009 9:25:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Why did I not remember you this way rezz?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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7/14/2009 9:27:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I forgot a step in my logics.

At 7/14/2009 9:23:25 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 7/14/2009 7:28:43 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
I have a question. Is rebellion, as in an attempt to forcibly overthrow a government, ever justified? What is your opinion?

Governments run on taxes.
Taxation is theft and taxation is terrorism.
The only power a government has, the only thing that makes an organization a government, according to President Obama, is the "monopoly on violence". The monopoly of the initiation of use of force.

The initiation of the use of force is always evil.
The state initiates force.
The rebellion against the state therefore does not initiate force.

Therefore, violent rebellion is justified at any and every point in time.

I am done.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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7/14/2009 9:28:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 9:25:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why did I not remember you this way rezz?

I do not understand what you are referring to.
Are you talking about when I left debate.org several months ago?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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7/14/2009 9:38:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I think OP is very confused.

There's a difference between labeling an action wrong and stating that there are other alternatives.

Tylenol is the right drug for a headache, but you can also take Advil. This does not make the decision to take Tylenol any less justified or right.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/14/2009 9:59:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 9:28:36 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 7/14/2009 9:25:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why did I not remember you this way rezz?

I do not understand what you are referring to.
Are you talking about when I left debate.org several months ago?

Yes. I do not recall the old Rezz speaking that language. Why do I not recall it?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/14/2009 10:07:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 9:27:52 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
The initiation of the use of force is always evil.
The state initiates force.
The rebellion against the state therefore does not initiate force.

Therefore, violent rebellion is justified at any and every point in time.

That doesn't justify violent rebellion, it only justifies rebellion.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/14/2009 10:19:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 10:07:41 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/14/2009 9:27:52 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
The initiation of the use of force is always evil.
The state initiates force.
The rebellion against the state therefore does not initiate force.

Therefore, violent rebellion is justified at any and every point in time.

That doesn't justify violent rebellion, it only justifies rebellion.

Everything to do with a state is inherently violent, even when a state is justified. So are rebellions against it, even if not directly. States have no purpose separable from violence.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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7/14/2009 10:21:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 7:28:43 PM, Lifeisgood wrote:
I have a question. Is rebellion, as in an attempt to forcibly overthrow a government, ever justified? What is your opinion?

Personally, I say no. But I would greatly like to hear other opinions.

Yes. Government is an organ of a tool used by individuals for their survival. If the society/nation that the government supports is not conducive to survival for a vast majority of its population, then the government that runs it will not be long for this world.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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7/14/2009 10:42:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 9:59:40 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/14/2009 9:28:36 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 7/14/2009 9:25:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why did I not remember you this way rezz?

I do not understand what you are referring to.
Are you talking about when I left debate.org several months ago?

Yes. I do not recall the old Rezz speaking that language. Why do I not recall it?

Because I didn't. It was an upgrade I got during my time away :D

At 7/14/2009 10:07:41 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/14/2009 9:27:52 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
The initiation of the use of force is always evil.
The state initiates force.
The rebellion against the state therefore does not initiate force.

Therefore, violent rebellion is justified at any and every point in time.

That doesn't justify violent rebellion, it only justifies rebellion.

That looks about right. My lines there certainly do justify only rebellion. However, since the state is initiating force, the people who care to retaliate are now open to every type of means.

Generally speaking if I have a problem with somebody, I can choose among a various set of options in order to "deal" with that problem and that person. I could choose to ignore that person, physically remove myself from the situation, cuss that person out, or attempt to calm that person down. Or a lot of other things. I don't need any one of those actions to be "justified" - I'm free to choose what I'd like to do. That set of options, if it is simply a small quarrel, does not include beating the crap out of that person. I would be initiating violence - which of course I'm free to do as well, but assuming we want to be good and moral people, I am not free to start a brawl.

This is the only time we must really ask ourselves "Is X action justified?". I don't need to be like, "Is my buying of Aion Collectors Edition justified?", because it's my own money, I can do what I'd like with it. Only when we're interfering with other people's desires and freedoms must we ask ourselves the justification question.

However, if that person started using violence against me or threatened to use violence against me (with reasonable intent, ability, etc. all that nice just war theory gray area stuff that we all generally understand anyways), then violence is added to my toolbox of responses. The same logic from earlier applies - I am free to choose whatever response I'd like to take.

It is not necessary to prove that violent rebellion is justified in the sense that there has to be a proof for a violent type of reellion. The only necessary proof is that the what the rebellion is against, is a violent monopoly.

> I am free to choose what response I'd like from my morality-limited box.
> When it is a peaceful interaction, violence is not in that box.
> When the other side starts using violence, violence is added to that box.
>>> I am free to choose violence as a response.

> Good people are free to choose what response they'd like from their morality-limited box.
> When it is a peaceful interaction, violence is not in that box.
> When the state starts using violence, violence is added to that box.
>>> Good people are free to choose violence as a response to the state.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/15/2009 8:11:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 9:23:42 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Lifeisgood, define "the right action".

'Right' as in morally correct.

Do you mean "the best action"? The most ethical? By what standards?

No, I do not mean the best action, although rebellion oftentimes is not. I suppose the Traditional ethical standard, for lack of others.

Assuming the goal is to replace a corrupt government, then rebellion is the right action.

I don't think so. Rebellion in that instance is righting a wrong with more wrong.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/15/2009 8:24:50 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 9:38:31 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I think OP is very confused.

Pardon me, but what does 'OP' mean?

There's a difference between labeling an action wrong and stating that there are other alternatives.

True. I haven't said otherwise.

Tylenol is the right drug for a headache, but you can also take Advil. This does not make the decision to take Tylenol any less justified or right.

Not exactly the best analogy. Defending yourself is different from overthrowing a government. Overthrowing a government is a violent and terrible affair; it is not 'justified' because there are always other options available that are not as violent. True, they may not be as 'effective', but they are most certainly more 'ethical', which is what I have been saying since the beginning.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/15/2009 8:39:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/14/2009 10:05:38 PM, Volkov wrote:
http://www.korea-dpr.com...

I browsed the source for a while, but I still couldn't see why the people in N. Korea cannot leave or defend themselves. Do you have any further clarifications?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln