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Representative democracy is te best democracy

Vitreous
Posts: 173
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4/2/2012 2:17:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I state this because it is the most utilitarian, pragmatic, and orderly.
"I don't even know what that means"
"No one knows what it means but its provocative"
"No it's not, it's..."
"It gets the people GOING!!!"
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/2/2012 9:27:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:17:18 AM, Vitreous wrote:
I state this because it is the most utilitarian, pragmatic, and orderly.

I prefer a Republic.

If one uses the word democracy in reference to the 3 main constitutions; Monarchy, Oligarchy, Democracy; than a Republic is the best form of Democracy.

If one uses the word democracy in reference to the 6 constitutions; Monarchy, Tyranny, Aristocracy, Oligarchy, Republic, Democracy; than a Representative Democracy is the best form of Democracy
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Vitreous
Posts: 173
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4/2/2012 2:37:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Term limits should exist as should other restrictions. But i state its the best because it looks to the majority of votes to decide whether a state is for or against a candidate, pragmatically does so, and maintains the voice of the people.
"I don't even know what that means"
"No one knows what it means but its provocative"
"No it's not, it's..."
"It gets the people GOING!!!"
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 2:52:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:37:19 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Term limits should exist as should other restrictions. But i state its the best because it looks to the majority of votes to decide whether a state is for or against a candidate, pragmatically does so, and maintains the voice of the people.

The problem is, the majority is commonly wrong. I don't want a mass of stupid people deciding who runs the country and how it's run.

I prefer a government governed by a select few people who meet two qualifications.

1. Have high intellectual capacity and have knowledge of political philosophy, economics, psychology, and sociology.

2. Have a proven past of good moral character and display interests in the well-being of the populace.


There's a reason the Greeks hated democracy. Plato had it right when he said society ought to be run by Philosopher-Kings.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/2/2012 2:52:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 9:55:29 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Democracy without term limits may as well be a monarchy for all effective purposes.

???????

A Monarchy is when 1 person holds sovereignty over all 3 branches of government
A Oligarchy is when a few elites hold sovereignty over all 3 branches of government
A Democracy is when a commoners hold sovereignty over all 3 branches of government

These 3 types of constitutions are further detailed when split into 6 constitutions (Monarchy, Tyranny, Aristocracy, Oligarchy, Republic, and Democracy).
Those 6 constitutions are than further detailed when split into specific constitutions (such as a Representative democracy).
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/2/2012 3:03:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."-Alexander Fraser Tytler

Not sure about the second part, but the first part of this quote seems eerily accurate.
Because, for all intensive purposes we have a democracy, when our Constitution is interpreted the way it has been in the last century.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/2/2012 4:48:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:52:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:37:19 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Term limits should exist as should other restrictions. But i state its the best because it looks to the majority of votes to decide whether a state is for or against a candidate, pragmatically does so, and maintains the voice of the people.

The problem is, the majority is commonly wrong. I don't want a mass of stupid people deciding who runs the country and how it's run.

I prefer a government governed by a select few people who meet two qualifications.

1. Have high intellectual capacity and have knowledge of political philosophy, economics, psychology, and sociology.

2. Have a proven past of good moral character and display interests in the well-being of the populace.


There's a reason the Greeks hated democracy. Plato had it right when he said society ought to be run by Philosopher-Kings.





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Who's going to decide who the smartest and best-charactered people are?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/2/2012 4:51:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yah because representative democracy has worked out really well in the U.S., right? Only a fool honestly believes that Congress represents the people, which helps to explain their dismal approval ratings.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/2/2012 4:53:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 4:51:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yah because representative democracy has worked out really well in the U.S., right? Only a fool honestly believes that Congress represents the people, which helps to explain their dismal approval ratings.

Out of curiosity, what do you think is a better form of government for the United States?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/2/2012 4:54:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:52:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:37:19 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Term limits should exist as should other restrictions. But i state its the best because it looks to the majority of votes to decide whether a state is for or against a candidate, pragmatically does so, and maintains the voice of the people.

The problem is, the majority is commonly wrong. I don't want a mass of stupid people deciding who runs the country and how it's run.

I prefer a government governed by a select few people who meet two qualifications.

1. Have high intellectual capacity and have knowledge of political philosophy, economics, psychology, and sociology.

2. Have a proven past of good moral character and display interests in the well-being of the populace.


There's a reason the Greeks hated democracy. Plato had it right when he said society ought to be run by Philosopher-Kings.

Except the problem is who decides who is the smartest people in society, and who has the best moral character?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/2/2012 4:55:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 4:53:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/2/2012 4:51:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yah because representative democracy has worked out really well in the U.S., right? Only a fool honestly believes that Congress represents the people, which helps to explain their dismal approval ratings.

Out of curiosity, what do you think is a better form of government for the United States?

Dictatorship, with me in charge.

But in all seriousness, I really can't answer that--my beliefs are going through a lot of changes at the moment so I don't really know. What I do know is that a representative democracy is nowhere near as good in practice as on paper. It may well be the best form of government, I wouldn't know, but it has serious flaws. Of course so does all government so it's just a matter of deciding which is least bad
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/2/2012 4:57:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:37:19 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Term limits should exist as should other restrictions. But i state its the best because it looks to the majority of votes to decide whether a state is for or against a candidate, pragmatically does so, and maintains the voice of the people.

Even though:
Only certain people are capable of being elected?
The majority of people don't trust the government and don't even bother to vote?
Most politicians do not make decisions on principle but on personnel profit?
Politicians are supposed to represent a populace they have never met?
People have a tendency to vote for the "lesser of two evils" and not anyone they truly believe in?
Politicians can't even represent themselves because they don't write the laws they vote on?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/2/2012 4:58:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 4:57:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:37:19 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Term limits should exist as should other restrictions. But i state its the best because it looks to the majority of votes to decide whether a state is for or against a candidate, pragmatically does so, and maintains the voice of the people.

Even though:
Only certain people are capable of being elected?
The majority of people don't trust the government and don't even bother to vote?
Most politicians do not make decisions on principle but on personnel profit?
Politicians are supposed to represent a populace they have never met?
People have a tendency to vote for the "lesser of two evils" and not anyone they truly believe in?
Politicians can't even represent themselves because they don't write the laws they vote on?

Didn't you used to be a socialist?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/2/2012 4:59:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 4:55:53 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 4:53:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/2/2012 4:51:56 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yah because representative democracy has worked out really well in the U.S., right? Only a fool honestly believes that Congress represents the people, which helps to explain their dismal approval ratings.

Out of curiosity, what do you think is a better form of government for the United States?

Dictatorship, with me in charge.

But in all seriousness, I really can't answer that--my beliefs are going through a lot of changes at the moment so I don't really know. What I do know is that a representative democracy is nowhere near as good in practice as on paper. It may well be the best form of government, I wouldn't know, but it has serious flaws. Of course so does all government so it's just a matter of deciding which is least bad

To follow up, I bash democracy a lot because it bothers me to see/hear people use the word as if it's synonymous for good, I really don't have too many problems with it
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/2/2012 5:03:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 4:58:43 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/2/2012 4:57:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:37:19 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Term limits should exist as should other restrictions. But i state its the best because it looks to the majority of votes to decide whether a state is for or against a candidate, pragmatically does so, and maintains the voice of the people.

Even though:
Only certain people are capable of being elected?
The majority of people don't trust the government and don't even bother to vote?
Most politicians do not make decisions on principle but on personnel profit?
Politicians are supposed to represent a populace they have never met?
People have a tendency to vote for the "lesser of two evils" and not anyone they truly believe in?
Politicians can't even represent themselves because they don't write the laws they vote on?

Didn't you used to be a socialist?

I have been --AND AM-- everything
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 5:11:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We all agree that Plato, David Hume, Neitzsche, Noam Chomsky, Aristotle, Rothbard, John Locke, Thomas Paine, and John Stewart Mill are all people of the highest intellect, agree or disagree with their positions.

Those are the people who I would have in my ideal cabinet of government.

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.
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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/2/2012 5:12:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:11:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
We all agree that Plato, David Hume, Neitzsche, Noam Chomsky, Aristotle, Rothbard, John Locke, Thomas Paine, and John Stewart Mill are all people of the highest intellect, agree or disagree with their positions.

Those are the people who I would have in my ideal cabinet of government.


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.
.

How did your government get a time machine?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/2/2012 5:13:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:11:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
We all agree that Plato, David Hume, Neitzsche, Noam Chomsky, Aristotle, Rothbard, John Locke, Thomas Paine, and John Stewart Mill are all people of the highest intellect, agree or disagree with their positions.

Those are the people who I would have in my ideal cabinet of government.

You're cabinet would fail horribly. You'd have the problems of John Major, except a hundred times worse.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/2/2012 5:16:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:13:10 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/2/2012 5:11:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
We all agree that Plato, David Hume, Neitzsche, Noam Chomsky, Aristotle, Rothbard, John Locke, Thomas Paine, and John Stewart Mill are all people of the highest intellect, agree or disagree with their positions.

Those are the people who I would have in my ideal cabinet of government.


You're cabinet would fail horribly. You'd have the problems of John Major, except a hundred times worse.

That came across rude when reading it again, so I'll try and reword it: Imagine getting a republican and a socialist to make agreements on issues. Now, imagine getting Romney, Obama, Marx, Stalin, Trotsky, Thatcher, Callaghan, McCarthy and Machiavelli to agree on how a government should be run. That's the level of your challenge.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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4/2/2012 5:16:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:12:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/2/2012 5:11:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
We all agree that Plato, David Hume, Neitzsche, Noam Chomsky, Aristotle, Rothbard, John Locke, Thomas Paine, and John Stewart Mill are all people of the highest intellect, agree or disagree with their positions.

Those are the people who I would have in my ideal cabinet of government.


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.
.

How did your government get a time machine?

I lent mine to Geo. I thought it would cause lots of fun that way.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 5:23:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:16:04 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/2/2012 5:13:10 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/2/2012 5:11:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
We all agree that Plato, David Hume, Neitzsche, Noam Chomsky, Aristotle, Rothbard, John Locke, Thomas Paine, and John Stewart Mill are all people of the highest intellect, agree or disagree with their positions.

Those are the people who I would have in my ideal cabinet of government.


You're cabinet would fail horribly. You'd have the problems of John Major, except a hundred times worse.

That came across rude when reading it again, so I'll try and reword it: Imagine getting a republican and a socialist to make agreements on issues. Now, imagine getting Romney, Obama, Marx, Stalin, Trotsky, Thatcher, Callaghan, McCarthy and Machiavelli to agree on how a government should be run. That's the level of your challenge.

And Congress, the Senate, the Executive branch, and the Supreme Court have an easy time agreeing? Theres about 600 decision makers in Washington, you think they agree any better than the guys you listed?

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,239
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4/2/2012 5:26:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:52:41 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 9:55:29 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Democracy without term limits may as well be a monarchy for all effective purposes.

???????

A Monarchy is when 1 person holds sovereignty over all 3 branches of government
A Oligarchy is when a few elites hold sovereignty over all 3 branches of government
A Democracy is when a commoners hold sovereignty over all 3 branches of government

These 3 types of constitutions are further detailed when split into 6 constitutions (Monarchy, Tyranny, Aristocracy, Oligarchy, Republic, and Democracy).
Those 6 constitutions are than further detailed when split into specific constitutions (such as a Representative democracy).

First off, the separation of powers is incredibly thin these days. Secondly, people would vote for Jeb Bush just to continue the 'royal' line to get around the 2 term limits. Congress with no term limits holds the real power, and ultimately there is one person directing them what to do. Democratic elections are in name only as the no-term limit Congressmen almost always get reelected, with little to no opposition. This is surely not a 'Democratic' government of diverse commoners.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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4/2/2012 5:41:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To think that the masses of people can, in reality, actually make informed choices which are the best benefit to the economy and the State is misleading. People are uneducated. They come into the voting booth with sexual, race, characteristic, and etc... preferences which are often not related to the actual policies of the candidate. They are convinced by hype mass propaganda without actually doing the research themselves.

I agree that the best government requires one to be ruled by the intellectual elite with a diverse array of opinions.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/2/2012 5:42:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:41:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
To think that the masses of people can, in reality, actually make informed choices which are the best benefit to the economy and the State is misleading. People are uneducated. They come into the voting booth with sexual, race, characteristic, and etc... preferences which are often not related to the actual policies of the candidate. They are convinced by hype mass propaganda without actually doing the research themselves.

I agree that the best government requires one to be ruled by the intellectual elite with a diverse array of opinions.

I read that as Richard Dawkins due to your avatar.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 5:49:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:41:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
To think that the masses of people can, in reality, actually make informed choices which are the best benefit to the economy and the State is misleading. People are uneducated. They come into the voting booth with sexual, race, characteristic, and etc... preferences which are often not related to the actual policies of the candidate. They are convinced by hype mass propaganda without actually doing the research themselves.

I agree that the best government requires one to be ruled by the intellectual elite with a diverse array of opinions.

Wow, we actually agree on something for once.

Though, Rockefeller shares this same view, except he adds "bankers" and evil intent to his list of requirements to rule.

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.
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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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4/2/2012 5:49:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 5:42:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/2/2012 5:41:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
To think that the masses of people can, in reality, actually make informed choices which are the best benefit to the economy and the State is misleading. People are uneducated. They come into the voting booth with sexual, race, characteristic, and etc... preferences which are often not related to the actual policies of the candidate. They are convinced by hype mass propaganda without actually doing the research themselves.

I agree that the best government requires one to be ruled by the intellectual elite with a diverse array of opinions.

I read that as Richard Dawkins due to your avatar.

Lol. I don't really like him but I love that meme.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."