Total Posts:68|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Civil War - Lincoln's Personal War

DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 2:43:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lincoln was well known for his abuse of executive orders, used in place of legislation, and acting without congressional consent.

The Civil War was never approved by congress, and most of the Executive orders signed by Lincoln were unsupported by congressional legislation.

Lincoln was the first President to unconstitutionally abuse executive orders, and since Lincoln many Presidents has followed his shameful lead.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Vitreous
Posts: 173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 2:50:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
He was a brilliant man though...his control of morale, ideology, and political moves were genius
"I don't even know what that means"
"No one knows what it means but its provocative"
"No it's not, it's..."
"It gets the people GOING!!!"
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 2:57:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So what?...nearly every president in American history has violated the Constitution. I'm not even sure whether or not Congress has actually declared a war since WWII. North Korea was done through the U.N, Vietnam through Port Huron, Gulf War nope, Iraq no, Afghanistan no.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 2:57:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:50:26 PM, Vitreous wrote:
He was a brilliant man though...his control of morale, ideology, and political moves were genius

By that logic Hitler would have been a good President. Hitler created a high Morale, unified Germany under a single ideological party, and he became fuhrer through a series of political manipulations. When he was originally given the title chancellor, the chancellor had little to no power.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 2:58:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:57:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
So what?...nearly every president in American history has violated the Constitution. I'm not even sure whether or not Congress has actually declared a war since WWII. North Korea was done through the U.N, Vietnam through Port Huron, Gulf War nope, Iraq no, Afghanistan no.

Two wrongs don't make a right
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
imabench
Posts: 21,230
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:00:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:43:20 PM, DanT wrote:
Lincoln was well known for his abuse of executive orders, used in place of legislation, and acting without congressional consent.

The Civil War was never approved by congress, and most of the Executive orders signed by Lincoln were unsupported by congressional legislation.

Lincoln was the first President to unconstitutionally abuse executive orders, and since Lincoln many Presidents has followed his shameful lead.

Clearly you have never heard of Andrew Jackson
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:01:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:58:36 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:57:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
So what?...nearly every president in American history has violated the Constitution. I'm not even sure whether or not Congress has actually declared a war since WWII. North Korea was done through the U.N, Vietnam through Port Huron, Gulf War nope, Iraq no, Afghanistan no.

Two wrongs don't make a right

name the abuse?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
imabench
Posts: 21,230
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:02:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Executive orders are orders on how to execute statutory laws passed by the legislature.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:03:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

The south just wanted to be left alone. How many had to die in order for the Federal Government to hold control over a few extra states?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:04:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:58:36 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:57:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
So what?...nearly every president in American history has violated the Constitution. I'm not even sure whether or not Congress has actually declared a war since WWII. North Korea was done through the U.N, Vietnam through Port Huron, Gulf War nope, Iraq no, Afghanistan no.

Two wrongs don't make a right

Yes. But why do you select Lincoln out of all the presidents to call out? That's like when two people fight, you just take one out and yell at that one, then let the other go free. If you really had a problem with violation of the Constitution you would be ranting about the Supreme Court, which has done FAAARR worse things --> (Schenk v. U.S, Korematsu, Plessy v. Fergusson) ....or you'd be ranting about Congress or all the other presidents that tried to expand their power and do what ever they wanted.

Lincoln saved this country,...and you pick him of all people....
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
1Historygenius
Posts: 1,639
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:06:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Civil War was revolution, not a really a war, furthermore the CSA was not really an actual country, just a belligerent power. Not really any superpower recognized the CSA and only France and Great Britain came close.
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
Vitreous
Posts: 173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:07:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

Agreed. Mix in the resentment of the North and South towards each other, the fear that a divided nation could be conquered, and a terrible ruling by the government and note that Lincoln's efforts were to SAVE the United States, not take it over.
"I don't even know what that means"
"No one knows what it means but its provocative"
"No it's not, it's..."
"It gets the people GOING!!!"
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:14:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

Isn't that part of history being written by the victor? I mean who's to say that the world wouldn't be just fine with a confederate states and a united states? The end of Slavery was inevitable and I'm sure that it's been said that ending slavery wasn't Lincolns priority.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:16:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:04:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:58:36 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:57:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
So what?...nearly every president in American history has violated the Constitution. I'm not even sure whether or not Congress has actually declared a war since WWII. North Korea was done through the U.N, Vietnam through Port Huron, Gulf War nope, Iraq no, Afghanistan no.

Two wrongs don't make a right

Yes. But why do you select Lincoln out of all the presidents to call out?
The Civil War. A war between the Federal Government and States. After the Civil War the US became Nationalist, and more Centralized. The civil war changed America, taking away the individuality of the sates.
Lincoln is responsible for all that is wrong with the Federal Government today.
That's like when two people fight, you just take one out and yell at that one, then let the other go free. If you really had a problem with violation of the Constitution you would be ranting about the Supreme Court, which has done FAAARR worse things --> (Schenk v. U.S, Korematsu, Plessy v. Fergusson) ....or you'd be ranting about Congress or all the other presidents that tried to expand their power and do what ever they wanted.

I have ranted about the Supreme Court before; where have you been?
Lincoln saved this country,...and you pick him of all people....
He ruined the country.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
imabench
Posts: 21,230
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:17:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:14:34 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

Isn't that part of history being written by the victor? I mean who's to say that the world wouldn't be just fine with a confederate states and a united states? The end of Slavery was inevitable and I'm sure that it's been said that ending slavery wasn't Lincolns priority.

On what grounds did it look like slavery would end in the 1860's? The South's entire economy was based on agricultural exports that came on the backs of slave labor. Slavery wasnt an aspect of the Southern states, it was the economy.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:17:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:07:12 PM, Vitreous wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

Agreed. Mix in the resentment of the North and South towards each other, the fear that a divided nation could be conquered, and a terrible ruling by the government and note that Lincoln's efforts were to SAVE the United States, not take it over.

See I don't get it, I feel like the only reason we today say that we are happy the united states was "saved" is because this is the country we know. If for some reason we had lost the revolutionary war and were still part of Britain who is to say we wouldn't be saying General Cornwallis saved us from being a splintered nation?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:17:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:07:12 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Agreed. Mix in the resentment of the North and South towards each other, the fear that a divided nation could be conquered, and a terrible ruling by the government and note that Lincoln's efforts were to SAVE the United States, not take it over.

See I don't get it, I feel like the only reason we today say that we are happy the united states was "saved" is because this is the country we know. If for some reason we had lost the revolutionary war and were still part of Britain who is to say we wouldn't be saying General Cornwallis saved us from being a splintered nation?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
DanT
Posts: 5,693
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:18:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:06:36 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
Civil War was revolution, not a really a war, furthermore the CSA was not really an actual country, just a belligerent power. Not really any superpower recognized the CSA and only France and Great Britain came close.

"[The Congress shall have Power] To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;" ~ article 1 section 8
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:18:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hmmm now I know what it means when it says your post isn't unique...live and learn
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:19:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:16:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:04:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:58:36 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:57:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
So what?...nearly every president in American history has violated the Constitution. I'm not even sure whether or not Congress has actually declared a war since WWII. North Korea was done through the U.N, Vietnam through Port Huron, Gulf War nope, Iraq no, Afghanistan no.

Two wrongs don't make a right

Yes. But why do you select Lincoln out of all the presidents to call out?
The Civil War. A war between the Federal Government and States. After the Civil War the US became Nationalist, and more Centralized. The civil war changed America, taking away the individuality of the sates.

The states never had individuality. Legally speaking, the Constitution was a inviolable contract of unity...an arrangement in which state sovereignty was ceded to the federal government. Secession was implicitly illegal, and morally unjustified.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:21:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:19:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:16:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:04:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:58:36 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:57:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
So what?...nearly every president in American history has violated the Constitution. I'm not even sure whether or not Congress has actually declared a war since WWII. North Korea was done through the U.N, Vietnam through Port Huron, Gulf War nope, Iraq no, Afghanistan no.

Two wrongs don't make a right

Yes. But why do you select Lincoln out of all the presidents to call out?
The Civil War. A war between the Federal Government and States. After the Civil War the US became Nationalist, and more Centralized. The civil war changed America, taking away the individuality of the sates.

The states never had individuality. Legally speaking, the Constitution was a inviolable contract of unity...an arrangement in which state sovereignty was ceded to the federal government. Secession was implicitly illegal, and morally unjustified.

Destroying the Constitution and making a new one is legally permissible
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
imabench
Posts: 21,230
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:22:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:03:58 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

The south just wanted to be left alone. How many had to die in order for the Federal Government to hold control over a few extra states?

How much you are downplaying the true scope of what actually went on is legendary. You had human rights violations being committed legally in the South, the secession from the North made the US look very weak which to foreign powers could entice them to mess with them, theres the controversy over whether or not states even had the right to do so, theres the fact that the south attacked first, the bad reputation slavery had not just in the US, but around the world, and thats just off the top of my head.

There was a lot more to the Civil War then having control over the southern states
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:23:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:22:01 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:03:58 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

The south just wanted to be left alone. How many had to die in order for the Federal Government to hold control over a few extra states?

How much you are downplaying the true scope of what actually went on is legendary. You had human rights violations being committed legally in the South, the secession from the North made the US look very weak which to foreign powers could entice them to mess with them, theres the controversy over whether or not states even had the right to do so, theres the fact that the south attacked first, the bad reputation slavery had not just in the US, but around the world, and thats just off the top of my head.

There was a lot more to the Civil War then having control over the southern states

It was the ports they wanted.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
imabench
Posts: 21,230
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:24:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:23:23 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:22:01 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:03:58 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

The south just wanted to be left alone. How many had to die in order for the Federal Government to hold control over a few extra states?

How much you are downplaying the true scope of what actually went on is legendary. You had human rights violations being committed legally in the South, the secession from the North made the US look very weak which to foreign powers could entice them to mess with them, theres the controversy over whether or not states even had the right to do so, theres the fact that the south attacked first, the bad reputation slavery had not just in the US, but around the world, and thats just off the top of my head.

There was a lot more to the Civil War then having control over the southern states

It was the ports they wanted.

try to read words before you speak your opinion...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Vitreous
Posts: 173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:24:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Another point is that w/o Lincoln, the Civil war would not have turned out the same and then the industrial revolution would not have occurred meaning the very computer you are arguing from would not exist.
"I don't even know what that means"
"No one knows what it means but its provocative"
"No it's not, it's..."
"It gets the people GOING!!!"
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:25:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I honestly don't believe the Civil War was as one sided as anyone plays it out to be. However it seems that if someone tries to see the war from the prospective of the south or someone challenges the accepted story as taught to us in elementary school, they are attacked simply on the bases of questioning the status quo.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:26:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:24:26 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:23:23 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:22:01 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:03:58 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:01:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/2/2012 3:00:31 PM, DanT wrote:
I don't know why so many people make accuses for Lincoln. The only plausible reason for it, would be political correctness, and/or ignorance of history.

You forget the part about how he did it to help save the country from literally tearing itself apart....

The south just wanted to be left alone. How many had to die in order for the Federal Government to hold control over a few extra states?

How much you are downplaying the true scope of what actually went on is legendary. You had human rights violations being committed legally in the South, the secession from the North made the US look very weak which to foreign powers could entice them to mess with them, theres the controversy over whether or not states even had the right to do so, theres the fact that the south attacked first, the bad reputation slavery had not just in the US, but around the world, and thats just off the top of my head.

There was a lot more to the Civil War then having control over the southern states

It was the ports they wanted.

try to read words before you speak your opinion...

Just trying to point out the states weren't as important as the ports.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
imabench
Posts: 21,230
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/2/2012 3:26:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:24:50 PM, Vitreous wrote:
Another point is that w/o Lincoln, the Civil war would not have turned out the same and then the industrial revolution would not have occurred meaning the very computer you are arguing from would not exist.

it would still happen, it would just be slightly prolonged in the north and heavily prolonged in the south
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015