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Right to refuse service?

Greyparrot
Posts: 14,225
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4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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4/3/2012 1:28:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

Repeal Obamacare, and you will see a large increase in government ran health care
insurance. It is inevitable.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/3/2012 1:36:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If I'm demanding McDonalds serve me fries: Yes.
If I'm demanding an ER reattach my severed arm: No.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/3/2012 2:25:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.

There are ways around getting drafted, there's no way around universal healthcare. The nature of both acts are not identical, one, in theory, is to protect the liberties of everyone in the country, while the other is simply forcing you to pay for a service.
They are honestly in no way comparable.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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4/3/2012 2:28:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 1:36:38 PM, drafterman wrote:
If I'm demanding McDonalds serve me fries: Yes.
If I'm demanding an ER reattach my severed arm: No.

Why?
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/3/2012 2:36:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 2:25:46 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.

There are ways around getting drafted, there's no way around universal healthcare. The nature of both acts are not identical, one, in theory, is to protect the liberties of everyone in the country, while the other is simply forcing you to pay for a service.
They are honestly in no way comparable.

Would you like to debate this. A quick 3 round, 5,000 character debate?

Resolved: If the individual mandate is unconstitutional, then so are Drafts
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/3/2012 2:48:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 2:36:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:25:46 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.

There are ways around getting drafted, there's no way around universal healthcare. The nature of both acts are not identical, one, in theory, is to protect the liberties of everyone in the country, while the other is simply forcing you to pay for a service.
They are honestly in no way comparable.

Would you like to debate this. A quick 3 round, 5,000 character debate?

Resolved: If the individual mandate is unconstitutional, then so are Drafts

conscription isn't constitutional either, I am tell you that universal healthcare and conscription are two entirely different animals which cannot be compared.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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4/3/2012 5:31:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 2:36:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:25:46 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.


The issue is not whether the government an tell you to do things. They can. Local laws prohibit you from robbing banks, and laws mandate that you stop at red lights. Those are not Federal laws justified by the commerce clause. Military service is authorized by the Constitutional authority to raise and support Armies, not by the commerce clause. In 1792, there was a mandate to buy a gun under the authorzation to raise an army. Taxes are authorized explicitly by the Constitution. Medicare is a tax, and is thus authorized. If Obamacare were a tax, it would be Constitutional. President Obama said repeatedly it was not a tax.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/3/2012 5:40:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:31:58 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:36:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:25:46 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.


The issue is not whether the government an tell you to do things. They can. Local laws prohibit you from robbing banks, and laws mandate that you stop at red lights. Those are not Federal laws justified by the commerce clause. Military service is authorized by the Constitutional authority to raise and support Armies, not by the commerce clause. In 1792, there was a mandate to buy a gun under the authorzation to raise an army. Taxes are authorized explicitly by the Constitution. Medicare is a tax, and is thus authorized. If Obamacare were a tax, it would be Constitutional. President Obama said repeatedly it was not a tax.

So you're saying that things can be justified according to the Constitution, without being justified in principle?

Would the individual mandate be okay with you if we somehow turned it into an Amendment?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/3/2012 5:50:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:40:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 5:31:58 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:36:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:25:46 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.


The issue is not whether the government an tell you to do things. They can. Local laws prohibit you from robbing banks, and laws mandate that you stop at red lights. Those are not Federal laws justified by the commerce clause. Military service is authorized by the Constitutional authority to raise and support Armies, not by the commerce clause. In 1792, there was a mandate to buy a gun under the authorzation to raise an army. Taxes are authorized explicitly by the Constitution. Medicare is a tax, and is thus authorized. If Obamacare were a tax, it would be Constitutional. President Obama said repeatedly it was not a tax.

So you're saying that things can be justified according to the Constitution, without being justified in principle?

Would the individual mandate be okay with you if we somehow turned it into an Amendment?

That would never happen.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/3/2012 5:53:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:50:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 5:40:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 5:31:58 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:36:30 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:25:46 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.


The issue is not whether the government an tell you to do things. They can. Local laws prohibit you from robbing banks, and laws mandate that you stop at red lights. Those are not Federal laws justified by the commerce clause. Military service is authorized by the Constitutional authority to raise and support Armies, not by the commerce clause. In 1792, there was a mandate to buy a gun under the authorzation to raise an army. Taxes are authorized explicitly by the Constitution. Medicare is a tax, and is thus authorized. If Obamacare were a tax, it would be Constitutional. President Obama said repeatedly it was not a tax.

So you're saying that things can be justified according to the Constitution, without being justified in principle?

Would the individual mandate be okay with you if we somehow turned it into an Amendment?

That would never happen.

Yeah, that's true, but not the point. I'm asking Roy if he would be okay with it if it was part of the Constitution?

If he says no, then that means that he objects to the principle behind the idea,...which would also mean he has to object to the principle behind the draft.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/3/2012 6:02:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?:

Sure. Why should I legally feel compelled to have a gang of Nazi Skinheads in my store if I don't feel comfortable with them being there? As the owner, I should accommodate whomever I want.

What are the implications for Obamacare?:

That it's repealed.

The end.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/3/2012 7:22:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.:

The beauty is most people wouldn't turn away an opportunity to make money. When it comes to race, most people don't care about black and white when the most important color.... is green.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/3/2012 7:22:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.

So they should be forced to sell you food?....doesn't that make you a fascist?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/3/2012 7:27:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:22:50 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.:

The beauty is most people wouldn't turn away an opportunity to make money. When it comes to race, most people don't care about black and white when the most important color.... is green.

Yeah

Clearly segregation did not ever happen in the United States. Capitalism was definitely able to prevent it.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/3/2012 7:35:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 2:28:48 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:36:38 PM, drafterman wrote:
If I'm demanding McDonalds serve me fries: Yes.
If I'm demanding an ER reattach my severed arm: No.

Why?

Not sure I can articulate the reasons at this point in time.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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4/3/2012 7:36:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 2:11:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

If drafts are made illegal, then so is an individual mandate. If drafts are made legal, then so is an individual mandate. The nature of both acts are identical and inseparable. One cannot be justified in principle without implying the justification of the other.

Neither are justified.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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4/3/2012 7:38:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:27:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:22:50 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.:

The beauty is most people wouldn't turn away an opportunity to make money. When it comes to race, most people don't care about black and white when the most important color.... is green.

Yeah

Clearly segregation did not ever happen in the United States. Capitalism was definitely able to prevent it.

I highly doubt that that was the implication.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,225
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4/3/2012 7:41:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Segregation was incredibly expensive for most businesses, and many resisted being forced to provide double accomodations for the same product.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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4/3/2012 7:57:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

Let's translate this question from conservative euphemismese into straight talk, shall we. Your question is essentially Do you think that American law should grant a right to practice racial discrimination? And what would the implications of allowing people to openly base decisions upon such irrational tendencies be for the proposed health care reforms of president Obama?

Now then, with the questions clarified, I'll stand aside and allow the wingnuts who respond to this thread to futilely attempt to justify their predictable answers and to inadvertently out the fundamentally bigoted mentality of rightists in the process.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,225
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4/3/2012 8:02:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:57:06 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

Let's translate this question from conservative euphemismese into straight talk, shall we. Your question is essentially Do you think that American law should grant a right to practice racial discrimination? And what would the implications of allowing people to openly base decisions upon such irrational tendencies be for the proposed health care reforms of president Obama?

Now then, with the questions clarified, I'll stand aside and allow the wingnuts who respond to this thread to futilely attempt to justify their predictable answers and to inadvertently out the fundamentally bigoted mentality of rightists in the process.

There's nothing euphamistic about that at all Chucky. I am just saying if I have a right to refuse an ambulance, then I should also have a right to refuse hospital care if I get sick.

Imagine if your evil conservative neighbor called an ambulance to your house, it pulls up, and you say to the ambulance, "get off my lawn." The next day you are mailed a bill for the ambulance, backed by the laws for the land. You okay with this?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/3/2012 9:30:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:22:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.

So they should be forced to sell you food?....doesn't that make you a fascist?

Let's see here. Forcing someone to sell food THAT IS UP FOR SALE to a hungry person. I don't think that's something a fascist would do!

If an item is declared an item for sale to the public, then it is fare game in a free world. Only in an unfree world would be you be prevented from purchasing food that is up for sale.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/4/2012 12:28:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:27:23 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:22:50 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.:

The beauty is most people wouldn't turn away an opportunity to make money. When it comes to race, most people don't care about black and white when the most important color.... is green.

Yeah

Clearly segregation did not ever happen in the United States. Capitalism was definitely able to prevent it.

They're called Jim Crow LAWS for a reason.

Once you've figured that out, then read the bold.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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4/4/2012 7:23:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:57:06 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 4/3/2012 1:16:04 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Do you think American law should protect our right to refuse service? Our right to decide to not enter into a legal binding contract?

What are the implications for Obamacare?

Let's translate this question from conservative euphemismese into straight talk, shall we. Your question is essentially Do you think that American law should grant a right to practice racial discrimination?

You have the right to practice whatever discrimination you want to with your own property. Some forms of discrimination are obviously more okay than others, and some are downright immoral, but people have the right to make those decisions.

Of course, this thread was being viewed almost entirely from the side of the consumer refusing to pay, not the producer refusing to sell, so your "translation" is really just looking at a specific aspect that is covered within the general right to refuse service.

And what would the implications of allowing people to openly base decisions upon such irrational tendencies be for the proposed health care reforms of president Obama?

Probably very little, given how few people would be insane enough to use such a right.

Now then, with the questions clarified, I'll stand aside and allow the wingnuts who respond to this thread to futilely attempt to justify their predictable answers and to inadvertently out the fundamentally bigoted mentality of rightists in the process.

You're backing out of the thread already?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/4/2012 7:25:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 9:30:21 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:22:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:20:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I support the right to refuse service in most situations except survival.

If every grocery store decided to refuse me service, I'd be pretty pissed, and likely dead.

So they should be forced to sell you food?....doesn't that make you a fascist?

Let's see here. Forcing someone to sell food THAT IS UP FOR SALE to a hungry person. I don't think that's something a fascist would do!

If an item is declared an item for sale to the public, then it is fare game in a free world. Only in an unfree world would be you be prevented from purchasing food that is up for sale.

no. Forcing someone to sell food that is up for sale TO A PERSON HE DOES NOT WANT TO SELL IT TO. I think that's what a new world order, global fascist would do.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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4/4/2012 8:35:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:40:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
So you're saying that things can be justified according to the Constitution, without being justified in principle?

The Constitution conveys "rights in law" regarding what the government can do. You're free to argue that there should be no law requiring you stop at red lights, or whatever, according to your principles of what's "right." I'm free to argue my principles. But that's a different meaning of the word

Would the individual mandate be okay with you if we somehow turned it into an Amendment?

I don't like a number of the features of the Constitution as it currently exists, but I don't think every person has a "right" to do as he pleases. That's because humans are genetically tribal and their survival advantage derives in part from being able to work in groups.