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Marxist fallacy of surplus value

DanT
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4/4/2012 12:51:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Marxism is based on the fallacis idea of surplus value. Surplus value is the idea that values are fixed, and any increase in value comes from the addition of the value of labor. Marx thus concluded that any profit that arises is due to the value of labor, and thus belongs to the laborer.

This of course is wrong. Product Value =\= base value + value of labor.
Value is determined by the equallinerium of supply and demand.

The only way labor effects the value of a product, is by impacting the supply.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/4/2012 1:00:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 12:51:48 PM, DanT wrote:
Marxism is based on the fallacis idea of surplus value. Surplus value is the idea that values are fixed, and any increase in value comes from the addition of the value of labor. Marx thus concluded that any profit that arises is due to the value of labor, and thus belongs to the laborer.

This of course is wrong. Product Value =\= base value + value of labor.
Value is determined by the equallinerium of supply and demand.

The only way labor effects the value of a product, is by impacting the supply.

This should be in the Economics section.

Labor definitely does more than impact the supply. Products gain value based on the labor that is done to them. If your argument were true, a chunk of mahogany wood would have an equivalent price to a a mahogany dinner table. In addition, hamburgers at McDonalds (and food at any othe restaurant, for that matter) are more expensive than they would be if you had cooked the materials yourself because labor has been used to fashion a new item.
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/4/2012 1:41:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The value of labour effects the supply/demand equilibrium, anyway...
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
DanT
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4/4/2012 3:43:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 1:00:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 12:51:48 PM, DanT wrote:
Marxism is based on the fallacis idea of surplus value. Surplus value is the idea that values are fixed, and any increase in value comes from the addition of the value of labor. Marx thus concluded that any profit that arises is due to the value of labor, and thus belongs to the laborer.

This of course is wrong. Product Value =\= base value + value of labor.
Value is determined by the equallinerium of supply and demand.

The only way labor effects the value of a product, is by impacting the supply.

This should be in the Economics section.

No because it's Political-economics
Labor definitely does more than impact the supply. Products gain value based on the labor that is done to them. If your argument were true, a chunk of mahogany wood would have an equivalent price to a a mahogany dinner table.

No because the Supply of Dinning tables is different than the supply of wood, and the Demand is also different.

In addition, hamburgers at McDonalds (and food at any othe restaurant, for that matter) are more expensive than they would be if you had cooked the materials yourself because labor has been used to fashion a new item.

The more people cooking the hamburgers the larger the supply.
If one cooks the hamburgers themself, instead of hiring 1 more employee, the price remains the same, but the extra money goes into your pocket, rather than an employee's pay check.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
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4/4/2012 3:55:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 3:43:15 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 1:00:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 12:51:48 PM, DanT wrote:
Marxism is based on the fallacis idea of surplus value. Surplus value is the idea that values are fixed, and any increase in value comes from the addition of the value of labor. Marx thus concluded that any profit that arises is due to the value of labor, and thus belongs to the laborer.

This of course is wrong. Product Value =\= base value + value of labor.
Value is determined by the equallinerium of supply and demand.

The only way labor effects the value of a product, is by impacting the supply.

This should be in the Economics section.

No because it's Political-economics
This specific aspect of Marxism is economic in nature.
Labor definitely does more than impact the supply. Products gain value based on the labor that is done to them. If your argument were true, a chunk of mahogany wood would have an equivalent price to a a mahogany dinner table.

No because the Supply of Dinning tables is different than the supply of wood, and the Demand is also different.

LOL

No, tables are definitely more expensive than blocks of wood because labor was performed on them.
In addition, hamburgers at McDonalds (and food at any othe restaurant, for that matter) are more expensive than they would be if you had cooked the materials yourself because labor has been used to fashion a new item.

The more people cooking the hamburgers the larger the supply.
If one cooks the hamburgers themself, instead of hiring 1 more employee, the price remains the same, but the extra money goes into your pocket, rather than an employee's pay check.

Bingo. The price remains the same for the consumer because labor was performed on the ground beef to create the burger.
OberHerr
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4/4/2012 4:01:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Royal probably saw the words fallacy after Marxist, and was like, "Oh no you didn't!"
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DanT
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4/4/2012 4:06:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 1:41:04 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
The value of labour effects the supply/demand equilibrium, anyway...

You didn't read what I wrote, you just skimmed through it. I have already stated that labor effects the supply.
The Surplus of Value theory ignores supply vs demand, and assumes that Product Value = Base Product Value + Value of Labor, rather than Product Value = Supply and Demand
Supply just raises the equaliberium of Price and quantity, while the Demand determines the price
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
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4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.
DanT
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4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 3:55:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 3:43:15 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 1:00:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 12:51:48 PM, DanT wrote:
Marxism is based on the fallacis idea of surplus value. Surplus value is the idea that values are fixed, and any increase in value comes from the addition of the value of labor. Marx thus concluded that any profit that arises is due to the value of labor, and thus belongs to the laborer.

This of course is wrong. Product Value =\= base value + value of labor.
Value is determined by the equallinerium of supply and demand.

The only way labor effects the value of a product, is by impacting the supply.

This should be in the Economics section.

No because it's Political-economics
This specific aspect of Marxism is economic in nature.
Labor definitely does more than impact the supply. Products gain value based on the labor that is done to them. If your argument were true, a chunk of mahogany wood would have an equivalent price to a a mahogany dinner table.

No because the Supply of Dinning tables is different than the supply of wood, and the Demand is also different.

LOL

No, tables are definitely more expensive than blocks of wood because labor was performed on them.

No the price is determined by the Demand, the equaliberium of quantity and price is determined by the supply. Labor only effects the supply, not the demand.

In addition, hamburgers at McDonalds (and food at any othe restaurant, for that matter) are more expensive than they would be if you had cooked the materials yourself because labor has been used to fashion a new item.

The more people cooking the hamburgers the larger the supply.
If one cooks the hamburgers themself, instead of hiring 1 more employee, the price remains the same, but the extra money goes into your pocket, rather than an employee's pay check.

Bingo. The price remains the same for the consumer because labor was performed on the ground beef to create the burger.

No, it's because the demand is the same.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/4/2012 4:10:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I mean, you argue that Supply affects price, correct?

Even if I concede that labor does not create demand (which is completely false-fancy restaurants obtain more profits because of their labor as do five star hotels), you still concede that labor affects supply.

Labor affects supply.

Supply affects price.

Ergo, labor affects price.
OberHerr
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4/4/2012 4:10:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

Now imagine all the gold in the world disappeared except for 5 pounds.

According to you, the cost would remain the same.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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royalpaladin
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4/4/2012 4:11:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:10:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

Now imagine all the gold in the world disappeared except for 5 pounds.

According to you, the cost would remain the same.

This situation is not relevant to our discussion. I agree that Supply and Demand affect price, but labor is a factor as well. Those five pounds of gold would be worth more if they were fashioned into a statue, for example.
OberHerr
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4/4/2012 4:12:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:11:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:10:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

Now imagine all the gold in the world disappeared except for 5 pounds.

According to you, the cost would remain the same.

This situation is not relevant to our discussion. I agree that Supply and Demand affect price, but labor is a factor as well. Those five pounds of gold would be worth more if they were fashioned into a statue, for example.

I think what DanT is arguing is that S&D is a much bigger factor than labor.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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DanT
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4/4/2012 4:14:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

No it's because the Demand is the same.

Supply effects the equaliberium of Price and Quantity.

Say olive garden's lasagna chef made too much lasagna, doubling the supply. They would double the price of Lasagna as well as double the serving size.

If there was a lasagna, they would either decrease the price and portion size to adjust for the supply. Or stop serving lasagna once it runs out. Either way the price remains the same for the quantity.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
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4/4/2012 4:15:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:12:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:11:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:10:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

Now imagine all the gold in the world disappeared except for 5 pounds.

According to you, the cost would remain the same.

This situation is not relevant to our discussion. I agree that Supply and Demand affect price, but labor is a factor as well. Those five pounds of gold would be worth more if they were fashioned into a statue, for example.

I think what DanT is arguing is that S&D is a much bigger factor than labor.

His argument is that labor has absolutely no impact on price except insofar as it affects Supply.
DanT
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4/4/2012 4:15:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:10:15 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I mean, you argue that Supply affects price, correct?

Even if I concede that labor does not create demand (which is completely false-fancy restaurants obtain more profits because of their labor as do five star hotels), you still concede that labor affects supply.

Labor affects supply.

Supply affects price.

Ergo, labor affects price.

Supply effects the equaliberium of price and quantity.
Demand effects the price.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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4/4/2012 4:17:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:11:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:10:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

Now imagine all the gold in the world disappeared except for 5 pounds.

According to you, the cost would remain the same.

This situation is not relevant to our discussion. I agree that Supply and Demand affect price, but labor is a factor as well. Those five pounds of gold would be worth more if they were fashioned into a statue, for example.

They would no longer be gold, they would be art. You just changed the item in question, which changes both the supply and demand.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/4/2012 4:19:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:17:39 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:11:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:10:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

Now imagine all the gold in the world disappeared except for 5 pounds.

According to you, the cost would remain the same.

This situation is not relevant to our discussion. I agree that Supply and Demand affect price, but labor is a factor as well. Those five pounds of gold would be worth more if they were fashioned into a statue, for example.

They would no longer be gold, they would be art. You just changed the item in question, which changes both the supply and demand.

No, that still is gold. It is not selling because it is a statue. It is selling because it is a GOLD statue.

That GOLD statue has value because of the labor that made it.

If the gold statue was hand-crafted, it is valued more than if it was crafted with a machine in a factory. This is because hand crafts require more individual labor.
DanT
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4/4/2012 4:28:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is another example.

An artist sculps a sculpture. It's one of a kind. The artist is not well known, and people are not that interested in his work. The sculpture is worthless, because both the demand and supply is too low.

Now say this artist was sculpted 100 scultures, he can now sell those 100 scultures as a set, increasing the supply, and thus increasing the equaliberium of price and quantity. This brings the value of the product up from $0 to say $500, because people are now interested in the set of sculptures.

Now say another sculpter sculpted one unique peice, and the artist was well known. The demand for his work is now higher, and his price becomes very valuable, regardless of the low supply. The artist could now sell this peice for $500, the same as the other sculter who had to work 100 times harder.

The well known sculpter by the way, has developed what is known as a brand name. He has gainned a reputation, where people are willing to pay more, for what they know is a good peice, over other names which has equilivant quality but a lesser reputation.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
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4/4/2012 4:33:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The demand in that example is a result of labor. They want the sculpture because it was created through a specific individual's labor.
DanT
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4/4/2012 4:34:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:19:09 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:17:39 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:11:51 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:10:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:08:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Suppose you go to your local Olive Garden Restaurant and they have a limited supply of lasagna because their lasagna chefs have contracted a virus.

The cost of the lasagna will remain the same regardless of the supply. This is because the value stems from the labor and not from the supply.

Now imagine all the gold in the world disappeared except for 5 pounds.

According to you, the cost would remain the same.

This situation is not relevant to our discussion. I agree that Supply and Demand affect price, but labor is a factor as well. Those five pounds of gold would be worth more if they were fashioned into a statue, for example.

They would no longer be gold, they would be art. You just changed the item in question, which changes both the supply and demand.

No, that still is gold. It is not selling because it is a statue. It is selling because it is a GOLD statue.


Only if the person who purchased it is doing so in order to melt it down for scrap.

Scrap value is much different than the current value

That GOLD statue has value because of the labor that made it.

No, it has value because of the demand.

If you melt a gold bar into a swastika, the value has deminished, because you have just hurt the demand.

If the gold statue was hand-crafted, it is valued more than if it was crafted with a machine in a factory. This is because hand crafts require more individual labor.

No it's because hand crafted is more unique. A machine crafted item is an exact duplicate of a million others. Hand crafted products are unique, even when compared to another hand crafted product of the same type.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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4/4/2012 4:35:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:33:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The demand in that example is a result of labor. They want the sculpture because it was created through a specific individual's labor.

No, it's the result of a name brand.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
royalpaladin
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4/4/2012 4:35:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:35:12 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:33:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The demand in that example is a result of labor. They want the sculpture because it was created through a specific individual's labor.

No, it's the result of a name brand.

That name brand is important because of the labor.
airmax1227
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4/4/2012 4:36:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:35:12 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:33:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The demand in that example is a result of labor. They want the sculpture because it was created through a specific individual's labor.

No, it's the result of a name brand.

People don't buy artisan crafts because of name brand.
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royalpaladin
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4/4/2012 4:37:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Name brands cannot exist unless the labor affects the supply.

For example, suppose I have the world's only supply of bird excreta. Nobody is going to buy it.

Now, if I shape the bird excreta into a sculpture, people may purchase it because fo the labor. The labor directly affects the demand. Shoddily-made products are not in demand because the labor that went into them was not excellent.
airmax1227
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4/4/2012 4:37:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:36:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:35:12 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:33:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The demand in that example is a result of labor. They want the sculpture because it was created through a specific individual's labor.

No, it's the result of a name brand.

People don't buy artisan crafts because of name brand.

Of course unless that name brand has value unto itself... A famous sculpture or painter etc... But this wouldn't apply in the gold statue example
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DanT
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4/4/2012 4:45:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:36:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:35:12 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:33:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The demand in that example is a result of labor. They want the sculpture because it was created through a specific individual's labor.

No, it's the result of a name brand.

People don't buy artisan crafts because of name brand.

When someone says "that's a Picasso", they are reffering to the painting as a name brand product.
When someone says "that's painted by Picasso", they are reffering to the individual who made it.

Individuals can be Brands.

Furnature crafting is a form of artistanry. Tempurpedics sell for more than copycat memory foam matresses because of the Artisan's name brand.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
airmax1227
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4/4/2012 4:46:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:45:33 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:36:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:35:12 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/4/2012 4:33:14 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The demand in that example is a result of labor. They want the sculpture because it was created through a specific individual's labor.

No, it's the result of a name brand.

People don't buy artisan crafts because of name brand.

When someone says "that's a Picasso", they are reffering to the painting as a name brand product.
When someone says "that's painted by Picasso", they are reffering to the individual who made it.

Individuals can be Brands.

Furnature crafting is a form of artistanry. Tempurpedics sell for more than copycat memory foam matresses because of the Artisan's name brand.

refer to post above.
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DanT
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4/4/2012 4:51:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:37:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Name brands cannot exist unless the labor affects the supply.


Name branding has nothing to do with the supply. It has to do with the quality, and reputation. The quality can be anything from quality of the material used, to the quality of the end product. One can build a good reputation, buy trashing the products that come off the line, below the quality the company is trying to achieve, rather than selling them.
Of course this is a Marketing concept which I'm sure you have no knowledge in.

For example, suppose I have the world's only supply of bird excreta. Nobody is going to buy it.

Now, if I shape the bird excreta into a sculpture, people may purchase it because fo the labor. The labor directly affects the demand. Shoddily-made products are not in demand because the labor that went into them was not excellent.

How is this an example of name branding? Also you just changed the product type again, from excreta to art.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle