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Two Party Treason

EconomicSolution
Posts: 21
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7/18/2009 12:57:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The democrats and the republicans when added together are less than 50% of the population ; but comprise more than 90% percent of our most important government positions; virtually 100% of major media; and even have the arrogance to eliminate all other voices and ideas from the presidential debates: That is not freedom, democracy, or wise.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/18/2009 1:02:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 12:57:13 PM, EconomicSolution wrote:
The democrats and the republicans when added together are less than 50% of the population ; but comprise more than 90% percent of our most important government positions; virtually 100% of major media; and even have the arrogance to eliminate all other voices and ideas from the presidential debates: That is not freedom, democracy, or wise.

If you're talking about the votes that have gone to either party, than it isn't their fault that together they comprise less than 50%. Americans should vote. And in popular vote, the Democrats won 53%. 63 million votes is a pretty big number, eh.

Secondly, they don't control 100% of the media, as all media is independent. The fact that coverage is tilted towards those parties is due to the two-party system of the United States. If there was any viable third party, it would be different. There isn't right now, so deal with it.
Volkov
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7/18/2009 1:05:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 1:02:07 PM, Volkov wrote:
Secondly, they don't control 100% of the media, as all media is independent.

I shouldn't have said that. Most media is independent - some agencies though are directly linked to the parties. But those agencies aren't any of the mainstream ones.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 1:59:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The false left/right paradigm exposed:
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/18/2009 2:15:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 1:59:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The false left/right paradigm exposed:

Geo, how many times do we have to go through this?

It's called democracy, and any time you have it and it is initiated properly, you will have these two sides fighting.

That video doesn't even touch on that either. It just says that the elite is putting on the show of the left-right battles - not that it doesn't exist. Let's make that clear.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 2:26:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:15:03 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/18/2009 1:59:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The false left/right paradigm exposed:

Geo, how many times do we have to go through this?

It's called democracy, and any time you have it and it is initiated properly, you will have these two sides fighting.

That video doesn't even touch on that either. It just says that the elite is putting on the show of the left-right battles - not that it doesn't exist. Let's make that clear.

Two sides? Sides that don't represent everybody? Not only that, calling it democracy doesn't help your position. Democracy is fascism in disguise.

And, I never said that the left/right paradigm doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's false. It's a paradigm acting as if it's two opposing sides when in reality, it's one side, acting as two separate sides.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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7/18/2009 2:33:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
If that is indeed the case, as you propose Geo, then you would be able to point out how the core ideologies of both parties are the same.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/18/2009 2:36:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:26:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Two sides? Sides that don't represent everybody? Not only that, calling it democracy doesn't help your position. Democracy is fascism in disguise.

Yes, yes, because all parties prop up one another. What is better, communism? Are we sure that isn't fascism too?

And, I never said that the left/right paradigm doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's false. It's a paradigm acting as if it's two opposing sides when in reality, it's one side, acting as two separate sides.

I don't see how it is "false." No matter what, humans will have differing views on subjects. The left-right spectrum is our way of categorizing it. But you're also right in saying that it doesn't represent everyone - which is why those terms are always shifting based on the day and age. Not to mention the plethora of new terms always cropping up.

We categorize. This is what we do. Unless you're saying everyone has the same opinion always and forever, then there is clearly such thing as the left-right spectrum!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 2:37:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:33:14 PM, JBlake wrote:
If that is indeed the case, as you propose Geo, then you would be able to point out how the core ideologies of both parties are the same.

Not necessarily. Both sides have different ideologies, but the leaders of these parties could care less about that. Please tell me, why are the Liberals mad at Obama?

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/18/2009 2:39:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:37:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Not necessarily. Both sides have different ideologies, but the leaders of these parties could care less about that. Please tell me, why are the Liberals mad at Obama?

Not moving fast enough on DADT and gay marriage and other social reforms.
He's been moving slowly on healthcare reform, trying that whole "bipartisan" approach, up until just recently.
Torture memos.
Etc.

You can be a Democrat and disagree with your leadership. Its called democracy!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 2:50:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Did you guys even watch the video? It should answer all your questions.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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7/18/2009 2:52:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:50:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Did you guys even watch the video? It should answer all your questions.

I did. I found it interesting but ultimately silly when speaking in ideological terms. They just say "elite this, pillars that, war machine what, etc."
MTGandP
Posts: 702
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7/18/2009 2:52:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 1:59:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The false left/right paradigm exposed:



That's just an argument by analogy. It has no bearing on reality. Parties are not pillars that are leaning on each other.
Volkov
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7/18/2009 2:57:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:52:16 PM, MTGandP wrote:
That's just an argument by analogy. It has no bearing on reality. Parties are not pillars that are leaning on each other.

It is kind of a false analogy as well. Pillars don't just fall sideways - they can fall forward and backwards, not to mention that if you put enough pressure on the middle you could collapse those pillars anyways.
GeoLaureate8
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7/18/2009 2:57:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:36:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/18/2009 2:26:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Two sides? Sides that don't represent everybody? Not only that, calling it democracy doesn't help your position. Democracy is fascism in disguise.

Yes, yes, because all parties prop up one another. What is better, communism? Are we sure that isn't fascism too?

Watch the video (5:35-9:10).

And, I never said that the left/right paradigm doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's false. It's a paradigm acting as if it's two opposing sides when in reality, it's one side, acting as two separate sides.

I don't see how it is "false." No matter what, humans will have differing views on subjects. The left-right spectrum is our way of categorizing it. But you're also right in saying that it doesn't represent everyone - which is why those terms are always shifting based on the day and age. Not to mention the plethora of new terms always cropping up.

We categorize. This is what we do. Unless you're saying everyone has the same opinion always and forever, then there is clearly such thing as the left-right spectrum!

I'm not saying people don't have opposing views and that all these separate ideologies don't exist. I'm saying that people are distracted and caught in the web of the left/right paradigm while the elites stand on top of it all and laugh.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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7/18/2009 2:58:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Plus, my country has four, almost five major parties. How does that work? Doesn't that collapse the entire idea?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 3:02:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:58:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
Plus, my country has four, almost five major parties. How does that work? Doesn't that collapse the entire idea?

No. You guys can bash the analogy and the pillars all you want. But the main point of the video is this.

The elite use divide and rule to remain in power. It doesn't matter if it's two parties, 10 parties, or however many. The elite remain on top unopposed because the people below are too distracted by the ideological differences and battling over little issues (gay marriage, DODT, etc.)

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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7/18/2009 3:04:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:57:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I'm not saying people don't have opposing views and that all these separate ideologies don't exist. I'm saying that people are distracted and caught in the web of the left/right paradigm while the elites stand on top of it all and laugh.

Aside from the elites laughing and such, I kind of agree. Too many people are interested in the theatrics of politics. I mean, I am interested in the theatrics, but my interest also goes much deeper. A lot of people, while they do look at policy, don't dig deep enough to make the most informed choice. It really disenfranchises the system.
Volkov
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7/18/2009 3:05:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:02:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/18/2009 2:58:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
Plus, my country has four, almost five major parties. How does that work? Doesn't that collapse the entire idea?

No. You guys can bash the analogy and the pillars all you want. But the main point of the video is this.

The elite use divide and rule to remain in power. It doesn't matter if it's two parties, 10 parties, or however many. The elite remain on top unopposed because the people below are too distracted by the ideological differences and battling over little issues (gay marriage, DODT, etc.)

I'm almost scared to ask what the "important issues" are.

Plus, those are big issues to some people.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 3:07:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This video sums up my whole point perfectly.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/18/2009 3:09:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:07:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This video sums up my whole point perfectly.

Wouldn't the parties exist even if "the elite" theory wasn't the case? Just due to the nature of human politik?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 3:12:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:09:00 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/18/2009 3:07:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This video sums up my whole point perfectly.

Wouldn't the parties exist even if "the elite" theory wasn't the case? Just due to the nature of human politik?

That's besides the point. I'm not denying that there are opposing views.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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7/18/2009 3:15:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:12:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/18/2009 3:09:00 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/18/2009 3:07:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This video sums up my whole point perfectly.

Wouldn't the parties exist even if "the elite" theory wasn't the case? Just due to the nature of human politik?

That's besides the point. I'm not denying that there are opposing views.

Plus, as much as I can believe the idea that there may be a group of people secretly manipulating events (because it's certainly possible), I'm pretty sure opposing groups/parties have existed for centuries, whether over political ideology, or a power struggle, etc.
Volkov
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7/18/2009 3:17:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:12:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's besides the point. I'm not denying that there are opposing views.

No no no, it is exactly the point.

You see, in order for your theories to really have an impact, you would have to say that without the purposeful division of the populace based on ideological beliefs, the parties would be almost non-existent.

Otherwise, your theories just remain that - theories. There is no proof to back it up, other than what you derive from supposed symbols and signs and analogical pillars. Plus, remember that useful tool called Occam's Razor.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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7/18/2009 3:22:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:58:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
Plus, my country has four, almost five major parties. How does that work? Doesn't that collapse the entire idea?

Ah, the benefits of Proportional representation.....

Ireland has 3 Major parties: A slightly Right Wing party, A slightly Right wing but kind of centrist party, and the left Labour party. But it's not Left and right as you know it. Then there is a nutty Nationalist Socialist party that supported the IRA - Sinn Féin - and the ever unpopular corrupt Green party.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
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7/18/2009 3:25:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:22:13 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Ireland has 3 Major parties: A slightly Right Wing party, A slightly Right wing but kind of centrist party, and the left Labour party. But it's not Left and right as you know it. Then there is a nutty Nationalist Socialist party that supported the IRA - Sinn Féin - and the ever unpopular corrupt Green party.

Our Greens gain 7% of the vote, but no seats. We have a party that runs candidates in only one province, gains 9-10% of the vote, and gets around 50 seats in Parliament - 13 more than the social democratic party that runs candidates in every province and gets 18% of the vote.

First-past-the-post forever!
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/18/2009 3:28:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 2:36:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/18/2009 2:26:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Two sides? Sides that don't represent everybody? Not only that, calling it democracy doesn't help your position. Democracy is fascism in disguise.

Yes, yes, because all parties prop up one another. What is better, communism? Are we sure that isn't fascism too?

That's like asking if Ranch Dressing is better than a refrigerator. They serve two different places in a meal. Democracy is about who governs, communism about how, they describe two different aspects of government (The same can be said of democracy and fascism of course).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
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7/18/2009 3:31:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:28:58 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
That's like asking if Ranch Dressing is better than a refrigerator. They serve two different places in a meal. Democracy is about who governs, communism about how, they describe two different aspects of government (The same can be said of democracy and fascism of course).

You discovered my intent, R_R!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/18/2009 3:46:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:17:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/18/2009 3:12:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's besides the point. I'm not denying that there are opposing views.

No no no, it is exactly the point.

You see, in order for your theories to really have an impact, you would have to say that without the purposeful division of the populace based on ideological beliefs, the parties would be almost non-existent.

Otherwise, your theories just remain that - theories. There is no proof to back it up, other than what you derive from supposed symbols and signs and analogical pillars. Plus, remember that useful tool called Occam's Razor.

I don't think you guys are understanding the bigger picture here. You're getting so caught up in the parties, the ideological differences, etc. but missing the overall point.

It doesn't matter whether there is a Democrat or Republican in power, the agenda remains the same. This is not a theory, it is conclusive based on what's already happened.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
LB628
Posts: 176
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7/18/2009 4:45:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/18/2009 3:46:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/18/2009 3:17:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/18/2009 3:12:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's besides the point. I'm not denying that there are opposing views.

No no no, it is exactly the point.

You see, in order for your theories to really have an impact, you would have to say that without the purposeful division of the populace based on ideological beliefs, the parties would be almost non-existent.

Otherwise, your theories just remain that - theories. There is no proof to back it up, other than what you derive from supposed symbols and signs and analogical pillars. Plus, remember that useful tool called Occam's Razor.

I don't think you guys are understanding the bigger picture here. You're getting so caught up in the parties, the ideological differences, etc. but missing the overall point.

It doesn't matter whether there is a Democrat or Republican in power, the agenda remains the same. This is not a theory, it is conclusive based on what's already happened.

.

1: Who remains in power? The "elite"? Who exactly are the "elite?
2: What is this agenda? The whole one world government thing?
3: Why is this agenda bad?