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Dying Parties

Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/20/2009 11:01:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
On the eve of what will probably be a historical defeat for the ruling party in Japan - the Liberal Democratic Party - I thought I would create a topic aimed at talking about dying parties.

To use the example stated above, the Lib Dems (of Japan, not the UK, though they both have had similar situations) have ruled Japan almost uninterrupted for the past five decades. Now, the party is facing what is bound to be a very bad defeat in their elections.

Now, why does this happen? I have found three reasons for the cause of a party's demise.

1. No ideology - this means that the party is nothing but a shell, a vehicle for those that want nothing but to stay in power. Its beginnings as an ideological vehicle have long past, and the party struggles to appeal to the masses that once adored it. Policies are a joke. The main goal of its members is to stay in power - nothing else.

2. No leadership/no grassroots - this, obviously, means the party has no new leadership, no new blood that is capable of breathing new life into the party, and no new membership initiatives. The "Old Boys Club" is pretty much in charge of everything, and any grassroots movement is stifled as a threat to their grip on power. No leadership and no members means no point.

3. No unity - the party start showing fractures, as the "Old Boys Club" starts fighting among themselves due to power struggles and/or ideological struggles. They start fighting among themselves because of historical hatred, or just because they have no one else to fight. This ultimately leads to a party splitting, and effective members of both sides join new parties, completely gutting the entire organization.

This is exactly what is happening with the Lib Dems, and I daresay to a smaller extent, the Republican party of the USA. It's also happening within my party, but we're attempting to fix the problem now that we realize what is going on.

So, I was wondering what people thought were effective remedies to these problems that will just destroy a party?
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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7/21/2009 4:42:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 11:01:02 PM, Volkov wrote:
On the eve of what will probably be a historical defeat for the ruling party in Japan - the Liberal Democratic Party - I thought I would create a topic aimed at talking about dying parties.

To use the example stated above, the Lib Dems (of Japan, not the UK, though they both have had similar situations) have ruled Japan almost uninterrupted for the past five decades. Now, the party is facing what is bound to be a very bad defeat in their elections.

Now, why does this happen? I have found three reasons for the cause of a party's demise.

1. No ideology - this means that the party is nothing but a shell, a vehicle for those that want nothing but to stay in power. Its beginnings as an ideological vehicle have long past, and the party struggles to appeal to the masses that once adored it. Policies are a joke. The main goal of its members is to stay in power - nothing else.

2. No leadership/no grassroots - this, obviously, means the party has no new leadership, no new blood that is capable of breathing new life into the party, and no new membership initiatives. The "Old Boys Club" is pretty much in charge of everything, and any grassroots movement is stifled as a threat to their grip on power. No leadership and no members means no point.

3. No unity - the party start showing fractures, as the "Old Boys Club" starts fighting among themselves due to power struggles and/or ideological struggles. They start fighting among themselves because of historical hatred, or just because they have no one else to fight. This ultimately leads to a party splitting, and effective members of both sides join new parties, completely gutting the entire organization.

This is exactly what is happening with the Lib Dems, and I daresay to a smaller extent, the Republican party of the USA. It's also happening within my party, but we're attempting to fix the problem now that we realize what is going on.

So, I was wondering what people thought were effective remedies to these problems that will just destroy a party?

My remedy would be to use restrictive laws to eliminate the function of parties, so that even having them had little impact. Or to expose them to trust busting laws. Every party becomes nothing more than a vehicle to power over time.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/21/2009 12:31:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Volkov- I have noticed you keep saying in your posts that the GOP is a dying party. This is not true.

They lost control of Congress in 2006. The last time the Dems controlled Congress was 1994. They are not losing touch with the American people. The only reason the Dems won in 2006 and 2008 is because of one person- George W. Bush.

"The main goal of its members is to stay in power - nothing else."
-You mean almost every single politician?

You say the GOP has no leadership. The Dems didn't have any leadership before BO was in power either. I do not get why the liberal pundits keep saying this.

I'll concede that the Dems have much better grassroots than the GOP. The Dems are in bed with the minorities.

I think if the GOP stops the neocon foreign policy and their social conservative stance, they will get millions, perhaps tens of millions more voters. There are just so many people that vote Dem just because the GOP is pro-war, anti-abortion, and anti-gay marriage. Fire Michael Steele and I'll take over as chairman of the GOP.
Republican95
Posts: 111
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7/21/2009 2:20:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 11:01:02 PM, Volkov wrote:

This is exactly what is happening with the Lib Dems, and I daresay to a smaller extent, the Republican party of the USA. It's also happening within my party, but we're attempting to fix the problem now that we realize what is going on.

The Republican Party? Puhleez...

How is disorganizing? They have a strong ideology, to fight for capitalism when the Dems are pushing for socialists reforms. They might not have leadership at this point, but they don't need to as long as Obama keeps on pushing stupid ideas. The Republicans are a shoe-in for gains in 2010. They might not get the majority, but the House and Senate will be closer.

If any party is falling apart in the good ol' USA its the Dems. When you elect a radical to the White House, the moderates (Blue Dogs) are going to dissent. It is happening on Capital Hill right now, and due to that fact, the Healthcare Bill might could not pass.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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7/21/2009 2:34:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Political parties are collapsing like butter Jenga towers over here.

The main party, FF, is staying together but lacks a proper ideology. The other opposer, FG, is gaining strength. But they're both the same, it's like Buttered Bread and Bread with butter. Wording is the difference.

The other parties are the Greens, who are power corrupt and not getting voted in for the next 10 years, A radical Nationalist socialist group which is gaining strength, but no-one in their right mind should vote them in. Then there is Labour, the light at the end of the tunnel, the Holy grail.The only party I would care to call the 'left'.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/21/2009 6:37:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/21/2009 12:31:50 PM, Nags wrote:
Volkov- I have noticed you keep saying in your posts that the GOP is a dying party. This is not true.

They lost control of Congress in 2006. The last time the Dems controlled Congress was 1994. They are not losing touch with the American people. The only reason the Dems won in 2006 and 2008 is because of one person- George W. Bush.

I did say "to a smaller extent." I also believe that the Republicans won't gain control any time soon - gains, maybe, but not a majority.

"The main goal of its members is to stay in power - nothing else."
-You mean almost every single politician?

You're being very cynical about politicians. Not all of them only want to just be in power - they want to be in power to improve society the way they think they can.

A guy named Bob Rae was right when he said that, when entering politics, you need two characteristics.

The want for power, and the want for improvement. There is a lot of politicians that, yes, only have a want for power - but not all of them do. I believe most do want to make a change in the way they see fit. They have the want for improvement - and that kind of politician is what keeps parties alive.

I don't think a good majority of Republicans have that want for improvement. Their actions don't seem to indicate they do, which is why I think they're slowly dying.

You say the GOP has no leadership. The Dems didn't have any leadership before BO was in power either. I do not get why the liberal pundits keep saying this.

The Dems didn't have leadership, yes, but they had prospective leaders that were well known and well supported.

The Republicans, granted, have a couple of leaders that could qualify as that. But, the fact is that those players right now - mainly Romney, in my mind - aren't doing anything. They're there, and they're trying some sort of renewal in the party, but it isn't going anywhere. That renewal idea doesn't even seem born out of ideology - they want to seem moderate for the voters. I might be wrong, but that is just my impression of it.

My party is going through renewal as well, and God do we need it, but we do it because we need to define where we stand. We want power, yes - but we also want to know what the heck Liberals are, and help define it for Canadians, so we don't end up like Japan's Lib Dems - a party with no ideology, no purpose other than power, and no point.

Is this what the Republicans are doing as well? It doesn't seem like it to me.

I'll concede that the Dems have much better grassroots than the GOP. The Dems are in bed with the minorities.

I think if the GOP stops the neocon foreign policy and their social conservative stance, they will get millions, perhaps tens of millions more voters. There are just so many people that vote Dem just because the GOP is pro-war, anti-abortion, and anti-gay marriage. Fire Michael Steele and I'll take over as chairman of the GOP.

Are you kidding me? You're blaming this on minorities and ideology?

Grassroots movements aren't based in either, to be honest. They can complement grassroots growth, but you can't base it in them. It is all about organization.

I'll give you the Canadian example. Meet the Liberals (http://en.wikipedia.org...) and the Conservatives (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

Now, I assume you know Canada is fairly liberal. I'm guessing that you would expect the left-wing party (the Liberals) would have more members, due to kinship in ideology with the public and the demographic make-up of the party.

Wrong. The Liberals have maybe 100,000 members. The Conservatives - formerly the Reform Party of Canada and the Progressive Conservative Party, now merged - have close to 1,000,000. Maybe more.

Now, why is this?

It is because when the former Reform Party started, it organized itself around people - not companies and rich donors, like the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives.

This means that every month, all those members in the Reform Party sent maybe 20 dollars a month. This provided all their costs. When the Reformers and PCs merged, they used the Reform structure - grassroots volunteer and funding.

So, fast forward to 2008. Canada had several scandals, and corporate donations are cut off, and rich donors can't give anything over $1100 per year.

This decimated the Liberal Party in the 2008 election. We had no money, and we had poor organization of volunteers. The Conservatives, on the other hand, had enormous piles of cash and tonnes of volunteers. Brimming, basically.

We're only now realizing our mistakes. We were too elitist. We went to corporations and rich donors for money, and we didn't build our membership or volunteers like we should have. The Conservatives, aka the Reformers, did the exact opposite.
___________________________________________________________________

This is what will happen with the Republicans. You're the elite. You get money from corporations and rich donors. The Democrats do as well, but they also have better membership and better organization. Even if corporate donations are never banned in the US, the elitist status of the GOP will hurt them, as the gap between membership, funding and volunteers between you and the Dems will grow, and grow, and grow, until you have no idea how it happened.

This is the reality of the GOP's situation, and unless you turn your organization - not necessarily your ideology or your policies - into a person-based model, you're going to fall just as hard as the Liberals have.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/21/2009 8:16:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/21/2009 6:37:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/21/2009 12:31:50 PM, Nags wrote:
I'll concede that the Dems have much better grassroots than the GOP. The Dems are in bed with the minorities.

I think if the GOP stops the neocon foreign policy and their social conservative stance, they will get millions, perhaps tens of millions more voters. There are just so many people that vote Dem just because the GOP is pro-war, anti-abortion, and anti-gay marriage. Fire Michael Steele and I'll take over as chairman of the GOP.

Are you kidding me? You're blaming this on minorities and ideology?

I honestly believe that almost all of the problems lie in these two problems, yes.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/21/2009 8:21:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/21/2009 8:16:41 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/21/2009 6:37:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/21/2009 12:31:50 PM, Nags wrote:
I'll concede that the Dems have much better grassroots than the GOP. The Dems are in bed with the minorities.

I think if the GOP stops the neocon foreign policy and their social conservative stance, they will get millions, perhaps tens of millions more voters. There are just so many people that vote Dem just because the GOP is pro-war, anti-abortion, and anti-gay marriage. Fire Michael Steele and I'll take over as chairman of the GOP.

Are you kidding me? You're blaming this on minorities and ideology?

I honestly believe that almost all of the problems lie in these two problems, yes.

They don't, as exemplified by my post.

They can be issues, but they aren't overriding ones.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/21/2009 8:26:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/21/2009 8:21:29 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/21/2009 8:16:41 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/21/2009 6:37:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/21/2009 12:31:50 PM, Nags wrote:
I'll concede that the Dems have much better grassroots than the GOP. The Dems are in bed with the minorities.

I think if the GOP stops the neocon foreign policy and their social conservative stance, they will get millions, perhaps tens of millions more voters. There are just so many people that vote Dem just because the GOP is pro-war, anti-abortion, and anti-gay marriage. Fire Michael Steele and I'll take over as chairman of the GOP.

Are you kidding me? You're blaming this on minorities and ideology?

I honestly believe that almost all of the problems lie in these two problems, yes.

They don't, as exemplified by my post.

They can be issues, but they aren't overriding ones.

They are.
- The Dems get a vast majority of the minorities. Something like 80%. Although, the Republicans do have the Asians :).
- Almost all the gays and all the pro-abortionists vote Dem simply because of that single issue. That is tens of millions of people voting Dem for one reason.
- Also, Dubya played a big part in the last two elections.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/21/2009 8:40:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/21/2009 8:26:58 PM, Nags wrote:
They are.
- The Dems get a vast majority of the minorities. Something like 80%. Although, the Republicans do have the Asians :).
- Almost all the gays and all the pro-abortionists vote Dem simply because of that single issue. That is tens of millions of people voting Dem for one reason.
- Also, Dubya played a big part in the last two elections.

I'm guessing you didn't read the entirety of my post.

Demographics means nothing when you don't have the proper organization. The GOP could easily have greater grassroots representation if they put in the proper structure. The Dems have it because they do have the proper structure.