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Conceal carry laws: The true story

16kadams
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4/14/2012 8:03:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
One of the many looked over arguments on conceal carry is that it decreases crime, not increases it like the media leads us to believe in multiple victim shootings. The funny thing is, people claim the conceal carry holders will kill people, leading to an increase in public shootings. Now, if you look at the data, when a public shooting occurred there is a 60% chance of more then one person dying, after a CCW law was passed that decreased to 1%. [1] Also:

"If those states which did not have right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravate assaults would have been avoided yearly." [1] [2]

And not to mention deterrence, the reason why the crime rate drops.

The argument is quite simple, and has been proven among many economic studies on human nature. This simple and easy to prove theory shows humans react to increased punishments, the studies I found conclude that people are less likely to commit these acts if either punishment is more severe or more likely to occur. [3]

Now, before proceeding, we must ask why is CCW a deterrent? The argument is quite simple, it raises fear, more certain repercussions, and increases the chance punishment will occur. When looking for people to mug/murder/rape, they look for someone not armed. Now, the reason for CCW is so people don't know that you are armed. This will create fear, as they will not know who is armed and who is not. They may be looking for an easy target, a grandma, but with CCW laws it is possible a small argument will turn into an old lad whipping out a .45 and stopping you in your tracks. It raises the fear aspect. Now, it also raises the possible repercussions. With something like an open carry, they know not to attack you. They will however attack people they think are unarmed, and many polls show they would not attack a victim if armed. So with CCW you may attack some harmless looking person who then in turn kills you. It raises the possible repercussion to hitting an unarmed person into a deathly situation, hence deterring possible attackers. And it increases the chances of attack, as if you attack you have no clue who will fight back.

Now, lets look at a thing Lott calls a "hot burglary." This is when a criminal strikes when a person is already at home. In Canada and England, where gun control is very strict, almost half of the burglaries where hot. In contrast, 13% in america where hot. Now what is the reason? Because they think they may get shot, they say robbing at night when people are home is the best way to get shot, they would rather case a house. [1] This proves they fear guns. Now, lets use some examples of deterrence. Lott uses the literal example of apples and oranges. He says if the price of apples increases while the price of oranges decreases apples sales will decrease, while orange sales will stay the same or increase. This shows the human oh it has consequences effect. [1]

Other things of interest: (graphs)

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Discuss.
______________
[1] Lott, John R. "More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-control Laws." 3rd ed. Vol. 1. Chicago: University of Chicago, 2010.
[2] Lott, Jr., John R., and David B. Mustard. "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns." The Journal of Legal Studies 26.1 (1997).
[3] Gary S. Becker, "Crime and Punishment: An Economic Approach," Journal of Political Economy, Vol. 76, No. 2 (1968), pp. 169-217.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
000ike
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4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?

Concealed carry is code for vigilantism, and don't think anyone is safe in an environment like that.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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4/14/2012 10:18:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store?

That sounds fvcking awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?

Concealed carry is code for vigilantism, and don't think anyone is safe in an environment like that.

16k, why do you get so obsessive over certain issues? First the Death penalty, than SSM, now Gun rights...doesnt it get boring doing like 30 debates on the same topic?
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/14/2012 10:26:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?:

He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a [cop] just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the [cop's] aim?

How is the situation any less dangerous when you substitute citizen with police?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2012 10:29:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:26:29 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?:

He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a [cop] just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the [cop's] aim?

How is the situation any less dangerous when you substitute citizen with police?

A police officer has training and a higher likelihood of hitting his target than the layman. I'm not sure how that comparison works...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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4/14/2012 10:32:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:29:08 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:26:29 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?:

He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a [cop] just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the [cop's] aim?

How is the situation any less dangerous when you substitute citizen with police?

A police officer has training and a higher likelihood of hitting his target than the layman. I'm not sure how that comparison works...

At least in Wisconsin, citizens need training before getting their CC license.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/14/2012 10:36:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A police officer has training and a higher likelihood of hitting his target than the layman.:

If there's a shoot-out in a crowded area, no one is truly safe whether the cop or citizen is a crack shot or not.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
000ike
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4/14/2012 10:39:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:36:08 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
A police officer has training and a higher likelihood of hitting his target than the layman.:

If there's a shoot-out in a crowded area, no one is truly safe whether the cop or citizen is a crack shot or not.

Yeah that's true, but I never argued that people would be safe. I said they'd be safER. It's like putting a gun in a professional's hands versus someone who has probably never been in an emergency and nerve-racking criminal situation and only fired a gun once or twice in his life.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/14/2012 10:40:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At least in Wisconsin, citizens need training before getting their CC license.:

I'm pretty sure all states have minimum requirements. The typical standards are:

1. Can't have any violent felonies on your record (to include domestic violence).
2. Cannot have been deemed as having psychological issues by a licensed psychologist/psychiatrist
3. Have to pass a mandatory safety course.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/14/2012 10:42:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:39:14 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:36:08 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
A police officer has training and a higher likelihood of hitting his target than the layman.:

If there's a shoot-out in a crowded area, no one is truly safe whether the cop or citizen is a crack shot or not.

Yeah that's true, but I never argued that people would be safe. I said they'd be safER. It's like putting a gun in a professional's hands versus someone who has probably never been in an emergency and nerve-racking criminal situation and only fired a gun once or twice in his life.:

Most people who carry guns are people who have an affinity for them, and it would not surprise me at all if the majority shoot more often and better than the average police officer.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
16kadams
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4/15/2012 9:36:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?

Concealed carry is code for vigilantism, and don't think anyone is safe in an environment like that.

You know conceal carry permit holders are less likely to break the law, right?
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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4/15/2012 9:40:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 9:36:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?

Concealed carry is code for vigilantism, and don't think anyone is safe in an environment like that.

You know conceal carry permit holders are less likely to break the law, right?

Also, the same scenario happened in israel. The Israeli saved hundreds of lives from three jihad terrorists. Terrorists now resort to bombings, the terrorist (the one that lived) said quote "I didn't know they had guns", essentially saying if they had [if they new] the guns they would not have done it. Also, most situations like this, the conceal carry holder only needs to show his gun, no shots fired, and the criminal backs down. Also you forget, deterrence would make it less likely for a criminal to try to commit this act.

source: Lott, John R. "More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-control Laws." 3rd ed. Vol. 1. Chicago: University of Chicago, 2010.
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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4/15/2012 9:41:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:18:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store?

That sounds fvcking awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?

Concealed carry is code for vigilantism, and don't think anyone is safe in an environment like that.

16k, why do you get so obsessive over certain issues? First the Death penalty, than SSM, now Gun rights...doesnt it get boring doing like 30 debates on the same topic?

No, conceal carry was always an interest, but I sucked at debating it. I just read a book on it, and now can formulate an argument.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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4/15/2012 10:15:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:40:04 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At least in Wisconsin, citizens need training before getting their CC license.:

I'm pretty sure all states have minimum requirements. The typical standards are:

1. Can't have any violent felonies on your record (to include domestic violence).
2. Cannot have been deemed as having psychological issues by a licensed psychologist/psychiatrist
3. Have to pass a mandatory safety course.

except Alaska. they have constitutional carry I think.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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4/15/2012 10:18:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 10:29:08 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:26:29 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/14/2012 10:16:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
tl;dr.... lol no, I skimmed it.

I think you put too much faith in statistics. Let's just say a criminal walks into Costco and shoots his gun into the air to get everyone's attention. He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a citizen just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the citizen's aim?:

He begins to explain his demands and threats, while a [cop] just a few feet away pulls out his concealed weapon. The criminal sees him....now what? A gun battle in the middle of a crowded store? How much trust can actually put in the [cop's] aim?

How is the situation any less dangerous when you substitute citizen with police?

A police officer has training and a higher likelihood of hitting his target than the layman. I'm not sure how that comparison works...

People that g to CCW sources get as much shooting training as Florida police officers. Also the police cant be everywhere, people ought to be ready to fend for themselves.

Snyder, Jeffery R. "Fighting Back: Crime, Self-Defense, and the Right ToCarry a Handgun." CATO, 22 Oct. 1997
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross