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How Capitalism is Contradictory.

CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed, but guess what - none of us have any US Dollars, because somewhere along the line they started collecting dollars from folks and handing them back "Federal Reserve Notes".

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything. The feds print as many of these papers as they need because they are seen in the eyes of the public to represent the dollar.

On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.

It's just paper with no value.

The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going. Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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4/18/2012 7:58:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed, but guess what - none of us have any US Dollars, because somewhere along the line they started collecting dollars from folks and handing them back "Federal Reserve Notes".

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything. The feds print as many of these papers as they need because they are seen in the eyes of the public to represent the dollar.

On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.

It's just paper with no value.

The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going. Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.

They have a value equal to what you can trade them for. People are willing to give good things for them, therefore, they have value. You can't say that they are equivalent to debt, they are equivalent to negative debt. The more you have, the more debt you can potentially get out of.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 8:02:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 7:58:39 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed, but guess what - none of us have any US Dollars, because somewhere along the line they started collecting dollars from folks and handing them back "Federal Reserve Notes".

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything. The feds print as many of these papers as they need because they are seen in the eyes of the public to represent the dollar.

On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.

It's just paper with no value.

The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going. Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.

They have a value equal to what you can trade them for. People are willing to give good things for them, therefore, they have value. You can't say that they are equivalent to debt, they are equivalent to negative debt. The more you have, the more debt you can potentially get out of.

There's a bigger issue here - the more the system is used the more into debt our government travels.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 8:06:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Furthermore, they DO NOT have value - the items you trade them for DO. Notes represent a promise - not any type of value. It's a credit system, it can only fail.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
johnnyboy54
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4/18/2012 8:36:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed, but guess what - none of us have any US Dollars, because somewhere along the line they started collecting dollars from folks and handing them back "Federal Reserve Notes".

Where was it ever stated that currancy backed by gold and silver were fixed value. Gold and silver prices change all the time. It follows that currencies backed by them will change in value also.

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything. The feds print as many of these papers as they need because they are seen in the eyes of the public to represent the dollar.

Value is the worth of an item as determined by the market. Just because they are not a fixed value, (in fact, nothing really is), it does not follow that they are valueless. Also, while quantitative easing is controversial, the fed knows damn well they can't keep printing money due to inflation, which could potentially destroy our economy.

On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.

The dollar is not backed by gold...

It's just paper with no value.

The dollar is backed by the faith and tender of the United States. While there is no tangible value, it has value because people will accept it when there is an economic event.

The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going. Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.

First of all, very few people hold all their assets in cash. In fact, very few of all people's assets exist as cash. Anyways, your last statement relies on the assumption that because the dollar has not tangible value, it has no value at all. This is false.

Anyways, it seems your rant was not about capitalism. Capitalism can exist with a currency backed by commodities. For nearly two-hundred years. the United States currency was backed Rather it seems you disagree with the Federal Reserve and fiat currency. If that turns out to be true, get in line ;)
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/18/2012 8:39:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -
No, capitalism, the unknown ideal, revoles around freedom, including freedom from fiat.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar.
No, they were ways of declaring the value of the dollar.

The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed
That's a meaningless declaration

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything.
You turn them in to the IRS to avoid going to jail, albeit not on a fixed basis.

On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.
Reserve notes are dollars, the dollar was simply declared nonredeemable for gold.

The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going.
Um, no, it means the more legal tender you have to dispel debts. (both real debts, and your "debt" to the IRS.)

Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.
This doesn't logically follow.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 8:49:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 8:39:27 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -
No, capitalism, the unknown ideal, revoles around freedom, including freedom from fiat.

Capitalism does NOT revolve around freedom, it revolves around power and money.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar.
No, they were ways of declaring the value of the dollar.

Declaring the measurement of the dollar to have a specific value, yes.

The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed

That's a meaningless declaration

The declaration is very meaningful, in that it existed to give value to the dollar.

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything.
You turn them in to the IRS to avoid going to jail, albeit not on a fixed basis.

This is the state we are in now, yes. They still have no fixed value, because the government can inflate prices any time they want, and they do.

On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.
Reserve notes are dollars, the dollar was simply declared nonredeemable for gold.

Right, thus removing the general principle behind the dollar because when you have no fixed measurement to base something on, it becomes meaningless within a mathematical system.

The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going.
Um, no, it means the more legal tender you have to dispel debts. (both real debts, and your "debt" to the IRS.)

The farther into the use of the reserve note, the farther into nation debt we go - is this not apparent?

Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.
This doesn't logically follow.

when you possess something which the value of is to alleviate debt, obtaining more can serve you only to alleviate more debt. having more money in turn results in more taxation - i wonder why.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 8:51:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Direct trade results in no debt. Only credit results in debt. A monetary system leads to credit, applying the monetary system on a piece of paper that can be printed at will, will inherently only serve to create exponential debt.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
thett3
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4/18/2012 8:54:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You're under the assumption that we live under a capitalistic system--we do not. That the currency the government forces its citizens to use (un-capitalistic coercion) gets devalued is a critique on the status quo, not Capitalism.
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: thett was right
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 9:01:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 8:36:14 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed, but guess what - none of us have any US Dollars, because somewhere along the line they started collecting dollars from folks and handing them back "Federal Reserve Notes".

Where was it ever stated that currancy backed by gold and silver were fixed value. Gold and silver prices change all the time. It follows that currencies backed by them will change in value also.

The statement may be incorrect but my point remains in tact - "In 1862, paper money was issued without the backing of precious metals, due to the Civil War. Silver and gold coins continued to be issued and in 1878 the link between paper money and coins was reinstated. This disconnection from gold and silver backing also occurred during the War of 1812. The use of paper money not backed by precious metals had also occurred under the Articles of Confederation from 1777 to 1788. With no solid backing and being easily counterfeited, the continentals quickly lost their value, giving rise to the phrase "not worth a continental". This was a primary reason for the "No state shall... make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts" clause in article 1, section 10 of the United States Constitution."

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything. The feds print as many of these papers as they need because they are seen in the eyes of the public to represent the dollar.

Value is the worth of an item as determined by the market. Just because they are not a fixed value, (in fact, nothing really is), it does not follow that they are valueless. Also, while quantitative easing is controversial, the fed knows damn well they can't keep printing money due to inflation, which could potentially destroy our economy.

But the government DOES this.

On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.

The dollar is not backed by gold...

It is backed by silver. We don't use dollars anymore, we use reserve notes.

It's just paper with no value.

The dollar is backed by the faith and tender of the United States. While there is no tangible value, it has value because people will accept it when there is an economic event.

Exactly - it went from a measurement of precious metal, something with value, to a promise or a credit system. That's where it went to shvt.

The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going. Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.

First of all, very few people hold all their assets in cash. In fact, very few of all people's assets exist as cash. Anyways, your last statement relies on the assumption that because the dollar has not tangible value, it has no value at all. This is false.

It has value on a personal level, but it's value to society is detrimental and because of this i render it valueless for lack of better term.

Anyways, it seems your rant was not about capitalism. Capitalism can exist with a currency backed by commodities. For nearly two-hundred years. the United States currency was backed Rather it seems you disagree with the Federal Reserve and fiat currency. If that turns out to be true, get in line ;)

We are a capitalist society and it has become what it has become, a society in serious debt.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 9:02:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It has become anti-capitalist. Thats HOW it is contradictory.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
DanT
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4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,
Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

but guess what - none of us have any US Dollars, because somewhere along the line they started collecting dollars from folks and handing them back "Federal Reserve Notes".

A Federal Reserve banknote is a dollar. A banknote represents money that exists elsewhere in a bank.

Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything. The feds print as many of these papers as they need because they are seen in the eyes of the public to represent the dollar.

that's what a bank note does.
You can turn in a banknote for coins. Just ask any bank teller.
On the contrary. The US Dollar represents a fixed value of precious metal. But.. nobody has Dollars, we in fact only handle Federal Reserve Notes.

You are like a broken record
It's just paper with no value.

It represents money elsewhere. Plus we are on fiat money right now, so it has a fixed value ($1), and the credibility of that dollar compared to other currencies around the world, depends on the number of dollars in circulation compared to the real national income.
The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going.
No it means you can pay off your debts with it.
Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.

no it means you can buy something for $100, or you can use it to pay off $100 worth of your electric bill, or hospital bill, or oil bill.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
darkkermit
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4/18/2012 9:06:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 8:51:49 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Direct trade results in no debt. Only credit results in debt. A monetary system leads to credit, applying the monetary system on a piece of paper that can be printed at will, will inherently only serve to create exponential debt.

debt is the result of trade. There can't be a debtor without a loaner. This is trade. Two people exchanging their time preference for money. The debtor has a higher time preference for money, while the loaner has a lower time preference for money. You do realize that debt is created under the gold system right? There's nothing inherently wrong with debt either. You need to go to debt to go to college, get a house, and/or start a business.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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4/18/2012 9:06:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Capitalism is not a system, it is an observation of how economics naturally works.

Capitalism is just the way things are, even when a powerful economic institution(such as the state) interferes, capitalism is present. Even in the most restricted economies, capitalism is the natural order of things, and is there.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/18/2012 9:17:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Modern industrial civilization has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilization has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits, in the classic formulation. Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist, with whatever suffering and injustice that it entails, as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an infinite garbage can."

-- Noam Chomsky
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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4/18/2012 9:17:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 9:02:34 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
It has become anti-capitalist. Thats HOW it is contradictory.

Very true. Well put.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
johnnyboy54
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4/18/2012 9:19:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 9:17:56 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:02:34 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
It has become anti-capitalist. Thats HOW it is contradictory.

Very true. Well put.

If that was the point he was trying to make, then I agree.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
DanT
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4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
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4/18/2012 10:11:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Repaying service debt, seems like a form of slavery.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/18/2012 10:14:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I mean, any college kid can go to school on loans and max out a credit card while he's at it. But now you're in debt and you can only repay it in services, so you're forced to work off the debt. That's modernized slavery. What do you think happens when this occurs on a global scale? That's not the society I wish to live in, but I suppose some really get their kicks out of it.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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4/18/2012 10:16:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.

Why do you think people keep on buying US debt (through bonds and financial instruments) then If we won't pay it back? Basic analysis shows that people tend to loan money to areas he/she believe will be profitable. Why are other nations doing that then? Do you think the US economy is just one giant bubble?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/18/2012 10:19:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:16:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.

Why do you think people keep on buying US debt (through bonds and financial instruments) then If we won't pay it back? Basic analysis shows that people tend to loan money to areas he/she believe will be profitable. Why are other nations doing that then? Do you think the US economy is just one giant bubble?

Man, what happens when debt rises exponentially? There becomes in effect no way to possibly pay it back. If that's not a problem with other countries, then i guess we can be the global superpower forever..
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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4/18/2012 10:25:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:19:55 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:16:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.

Why do you think people keep on buying US debt (through bonds and financial instruments) then If we won't pay it back? Basic analysis shows that people tend to loan money to areas he/she believe will be profitable. Why are other nations doing that then? Do you think the US economy is just one giant bubble?

Man, what happens when debt rises exponentially? There becomes in effect no way to possibly pay it back. If that's not a problem with other countries, then i guess we can be the global superpower forever..

Debt does not have to and never will be zero in the world. There's no "end point" where all debt has to be paid off. If the world were to end tomorrow, I don't think everyone is going to go "oh sh!t, I didn't pay off my debt".
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/18/2012 10:38:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:25:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:19:55 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:16:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.

Why do you think people keep on buying US debt (through bonds and financial instruments) then If we won't pay it back? Basic analysis shows that people tend to loan money to areas he/she believe will be profitable. Why are other nations doing that then? Do you think the US economy is just one giant bubble?

Man, what happens when debt rises exponentially? There becomes in effect no way to possibly pay it back. If that's not a problem with other countries, then i guess we can be the global superpower forever..

Debt does not have to and never will be zero in the world. There's no "end point" where all debt has to be paid off. If the world were to end tomorrow, I don't think everyone is going to go "oh sh!t, I didn't pay off my debt".

Yeah I'll agree with that, it's just unfortunate.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/18/2012 10:45:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.


By "credibility" I mean "the quality of being trusted". Once again banknotes are legal tender for paying off personal debts; they do not put the holder of the banknote into debt, as you assumed in your original post.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.

I'm not sure you do.

If there was £1 representing every ¤1 of the British gross national income, and $1 representing every ¤2 of the US gross national income, than the $ is worth more than the £, because it represents more real money.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/18/2012 10:49:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:16:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.

Why do you think people keep on buying US debt (through bonds and financial instruments) then If we won't pay it back? Basic analysis shows that people tend to loan money to areas he/she believe will be profitable. Why are other nations doing that then? Do you think the US economy is just one giant bubble?

Bonds add to the national debt. When you buy government bonds, the government is borrowing money from you, with the promise of paying back the loan with interest. This is why people buy bonds; the interest makes it worth more provided the value of the dollar stays the same.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/18/2012 11:03:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 10:45:41 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:07:48 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 10:01:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:10:40 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 9:05:55 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -

No it does not. One can have capitalism without a standard currency.
We're all familiar with it, in fact there's a gosh darned thread on it right now.

The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar. The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed,

Gold standard is based on the fluctuating value of gold.
Fiat money is based on a fixed value

Yes, but don't you understand that our flat rate of some magic fixed value that seems like a good ide, is not valuable in any way because while you can turn them in for coins, coins are made of zinc, which is not valuable at all. I mean, what do you think money is based on? How available the product is the the world. Thats value. What are we going to do as a country, with credit???

Our fiat Money is based on our countries goods and services. The credibility of our fiat money is determined by measuring it against our real national income.

Exactly, and our flat money consists of a credit system. We are in serious debt on a promise that we will do the work and provide the services to other countries based on numbers. That can end up being detrimental in the long run when our debts clearly outshine our ability to fulfill the promise, and war results.


By "credibility" I mean "the quality of being trusted". Once again banknotes are legal tender for paying off personal debts; they do not put the holder of the banknote into debt, as you assumed in your original post.

They do put the holder into debt. If we are in debt on a national level, then each person within our country is forced into our monetary system where they become part of the larger system of repaying debts.

The whole world runs on fiat money at the moment. So if the UK's gross national income to British pounds distributed has a ration of ¤1 income:£2 currency distributed, and the US's gross national income to US dollars distributed has a ratio of ¤1 income:$1 currency distributed, than the $ would be worth more than the £.

Yes, yes i understand.

I'm not sure you do.

If there was £1 representing every ¤1 of the British gross national income, and $1 representing every ¤2 of the US gross national income, than the $ is worth more than the £, because it represents more real money.

Yeah, I understand how this works, but this is not a bulletproof system, we will print more and our currency will become devalued.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/19/2012 3:17:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 8:49:43 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/18/2012 8:39:27 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/18/2012 7:55:51 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Capitalism revolves around THE US DOLLAR -
No, capitalism, the unknown ideal, revoles around freedom, including freedom from fiat.

Capitalism does NOT revolve around freedom, it revolves around power and money.

Meaningless, vague, and strawman.


The gold standard, the silver standard - both ways of measuring the value of the Dollar.
No, they were ways of declaring the value of the dollar.

Declaring the measurement of the dollar to have a specific value, yes.
There's no "there" there. Nothing to measure, just to declare. It's a symbolic document, always has been, even under the gold standard, only change is what it's a symbol for.


The US Dollar is a fixed measurement never to be changed

That's a meaningless declaration

The declaration is very meaningful, in that it existed to give value to the dollar.
I think you intend fixed quantity. When something is fixed you omit the process of measurement, as measurement is for variables.


Federal Reserve Notes are hilarious. They are valueless, in fact you can not turn them in for any fixed amount of anything.
You turn them in to the IRS to avoid going to jail, albeit not on a fixed basis.

This is the state we are in now, yes. They still have no fixed value, because the government can inflate prices any time they want, and they do.
And they could change the amount of gold it would be redeemable for, and often did-- they never had a binding contract, although they should have.

Right, thus removing the general principle behind the dollar because when you have no fixed measurement to base something on, it becomes meaningless within a mathematical system.
The current dollar is quite meaningful. The meaning is a conditional get-out-of-jail card.


The concept of becoming 'wealthy' in our society is defined by assets, cash.. etc. The problem is that when one reads a federal reserve note, one will find that it clearly states "legal tender for all debts..." - This essentially means that the more 'notes' you accumulate, the farther in debt you are really going.
Um, no, it means the more legal tender you have to dispel debts. (both real debts, and your "debt" to the IRS.)

The farther into the use of the reserve note, the farther into nation debt we go - is this not apparent?
There is no we. Printing money formally if dishonestly is a means to pay off the government's debts, you're confusing the cause for the effect.


Being in possession of $100 dollars technically just means that you are 100 more dollars into debt, because the reserve notes only serve to alleviate debt.
This doesn't logically follow.

when you possess something which the value of is to alleviate debt, obtaining more can serve you only to alleviate more debt.
Alleviating means reducing, just so you know.

having more money in turn results in more taxation - i wonder why.
The real value of taxation doesn't change just because more federal reserve notes are around in total. Or were you speaking of when an individual acquires more of such?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.