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Governments - Left vs Right

DanT
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4/30/2012 11:06:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Left wing and right wing

Left Wing means Reformism
Right Wig means Traditionalism

Rule of Law

Rule of Law means the government must follow existing laws, such as regulations of the government, and constitutional restrictions.

By it's definition, rule of law is right wing, because it restricts the government's ability to act. Rule of law is a minarchist ideal.

Monarchy - rule of one

A monarchy is a monarchy which is legitimized by, and limited to traditions, and/or a monarchy that is restricted by rule of law.

A tyranny is an illegitimate monarchy that is not bound by tradition, and/or an a a government where the monarch/tyrant holds absolute power, and is not restricted by rule of law. Tyrannies are left wing.

Oligarchy - rule of a few

An oligarchy is an oligarchy that is not bound by rule of law, and/or chosen based on set of traditional standards, but rather an oligarchy is chosen based on influence, and has absolute authority. An oligarchy is left wing.

An aristocracy is an oligarchy that is restricted by rule of law, and/or is selected based on their qualifications, as determined by a traditional standard. An aristocracy is right wing.

Democracy - rule of the common people

A democracy is an democracy that is not limited by rule of law, and/or is subject to the will of the majority. A democracy is left wing.

A republic is a democracy that is limited by rule of law, and/or is subject to both the majority and the minority simultaneously. A republic is right wing.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
imabench
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4/30/2012 11:11:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So whats the point of this?
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16kadams
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4/30/2012 11:12:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The real left vs right.

A classical left v right is fascists and Nazis on the far right, communists on the far left, and political moderates in the middle. But those who use this model fail to define their terms on fascism and Nazism. This makes confusion amongst people. So the real spectrum should be:

100% government power on the far left
~50% in the middle
and 0% in the far right

On the far left we have communists, fascists, Nazis, and any totalitarian nation, as based on minor governmental left right scales this makes sense.

Around the left, but not 100% is oligarchy, 75% power.

In the middle we have america, constitutional centrists.

And on the far right we have classical anarchists (no government).

So the left and right scale we hear often is flawed and should be replaced by the above.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DanT
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4/30/2012 11:51:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 11:12:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
The real left vs right.

A classical left v right is fascists and Nazis on the far right, communists on the far left, and political moderates in the middle. But those who use this model fail to define their terms on fascism and Nazism. This makes confusion amongst people. So the real spectrum should be:

100% government power on the far left
~50% in the middle
and 0% in the far right

On the far left we have communists, fascists, Nazis, and any totalitarian nation, as based on minor governmental left right scales this makes sense.

Around the left, but not 100% is oligarchy, 75% power.

In the middle we have america, constitutional centrists.

And on the far right we have classical anarchists (no government).

So the left and right scale we hear often is flawed and should be replaced by the above.

No Left and Right is a socio-cultural scale. You are defining Left as Fascist and Right as Libertarian, which is a Socio-political scale.
History has shown that Left-right politics is sociocultural.

There re 4 axises on the political spectrum, only 2 of which are relevant for determining where one stands politically, and the other 2 axises are byproducts of one's position in regards to the first 2.

The 2 relevant axises are socio-cultural and socio-political;
Left/progressive vs Right/Conservative = socio-cultural
Collectivist/fascist vs Individualist/libertarian = socio-political

http://www.debate.org...

The 2 irrelevant axises are socio-economic and socio-demographic
Socialism vs Classic Liberalism/capitalism = socio-economic
Nationalism vs Anarchism = socio-demographic
http://www.debate.org...

If you plot axises along the irrelevant axises you split the 4 main ideologies (Socialism, Nationalism, Classic Liberalism, and Anarchism) into 6 ideologies.
Socialism; Socialism and Populism
Nationalism; Nationalism and Traditional Conservatism
Classic Liberalism; Classic Liberalism and Liberal Conservatism (modern conservatism)
Anarchism; Anarchism and Social Liberalism (modern liberalism)

Socialism and Nationalism is Fascist
Anarchism and Classic Liberalism is Libertarian
Traditional Conservatism and Liberal Conservatism is Conservative
Populism and Social Liberalism is Progressive
http://www.debate.org...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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4/30/2012 11:51:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 11:11:49 AM, imabench wrote:
So whats the point of this?

It's interesting.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
16kadams
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4/30/2012 4:57:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 11:51:15 AM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 11:12:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
The real left vs right.

A classical left v right is fascists and Nazis on the far right, communists on the far left, and political moderates in the middle. But those who use this model fail to define their terms on fascism and Nazism. This makes confusion amongst people. So the real spectrum should be:

100% government power on the far left
~50% in the middle
and 0% in the far right

On the far left we have communists, fascists, Nazis, and any totalitarian nation, as based on minor governmental left right scales this makes sense.

Around the left, but not 100% is oligarchy, 75% power.

In the middle we have america, constitutional centrists.

And on the far right we have classical anarchists (no government).

So the left and right scale we hear often is flawed and should be replaced by the above.

No Left and Right is a socio-cultural scale. You are defining Left as Fascist and Right as Libertarian, which is a Socio-political scale.
History has shown that Left-right politics is sociocultural.

There re 4 axises on the political spectrum, only 2 of which are relevant for determining where one stands politically, and the other 2 axises are byproducts of one's position in regards to the first 2.

The 2 relevant axises are socio-cultural and socio-political;
Left/progressive vs Right/Conservative = socio-cultural
Collectivist/fascist vs Individualist/libertarian = socio-political

http://www.debate.org...

The 2 irrelevant axises are socio-economic and socio-demographic
Socialism vs Classic Liberalism/capitalism = socio-economic
Nationalism vs Anarchism = socio-demographic
http://www.debate.org...

If you plot axises along the irrelevant axises you split the 4 main ideologies (Socialism, Nationalism, Classic Liberalism, and Anarchism) into 6 ideologies.
Socialism; Socialism and Populism
Nationalism; Nationalism and Traditional Conservatism
Classic Liberalism; Classic Liberalism and Liberal Conservatism (modern conservatism)
Anarchism; Anarchism and Social Liberalism (modern liberalism)

Socialism and Nationalism is Fascist
Anarchism and Classic Liberalism is Libertarian
Traditional Conservatism and Liberal Conservatism is Conservative
Populism and Social Liberalism is Progressive
http://www.debate.org...

ok...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.
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DanT
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4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.

monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.

monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

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OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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4/30/2012 6:36:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.

monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.

It's not.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/30/2012 6:43:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 6:36:57 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.

monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.

It's not.

assertion
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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4/30/2012 6:47:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 6:43:32 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:36:57 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.

monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.

It's not.

assertion

Definition of TYRANNY

1
oppressive power <every form of tyranny over the mind of man — Thomas Jefferson>; especially : oppressive power exerted by government <the tyranny of a police state>
2
a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state
b : the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
3
a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force <living under the tyranny of the clock — Dixon Wecter>
4
an oppressive, harsh, or unjust act : a tyrannical act <workers who had suffered tyrannies>

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

If by "right wing" you simply mean capitalist economics then you can easily have capitalist tyrants (Pinochet.)
DanT
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4/30/2012 7:07:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 6:47:30 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:43:32 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:36:57 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.

monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.

It's not.

assertion

Definition of TYRANNY

1
oppressive power <every form of tyranny over the mind of man — Thomas Jefferson>; especially : oppressive power exerted by government <the tyranny of a police state>
2
a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state
b : the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
3
a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force <living under the tyranny of the clock — Dixon Wecter>
4
an oppressive, harsh, or unjust act : a tyrannical act <workers who had suffered tyrannies>

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

If by "right wing" you simply mean capitalist economics then you can easily have capitalist tyrants (Pinochet.)

I already defined right wing in my original post. But you don't read, you just skim.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/30/2012 7:08:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 7:07:54 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:47:30 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:43:32 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:36:57 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:23:39 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Sorry, but there's so much wrong there that I can't go into each catastrophic mistake. The blunder to top all blunders is that a monarchy is left wing.

monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.

It's not.

assertion

Definition of TYRANNY

1
oppressive power <every form of tyranny over the mind of man — Thomas Jefferson>; especially : oppressive power exerted by government <the tyranny of a police state>
2
a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state
b : the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
3
a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force <living under the tyranny of the clock — Dixon Wecter>
4
an oppressive, harsh, or unjust act : a tyrannical act <workers who had suffered tyrannies>

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

If by "right wing" you simply mean capitalist economics then you can easily have capitalist tyrants (Pinochet.)

I already defined right wing in my original post. But you don't read, you just skim.

nothing you said proves that a tyranny can be right wing
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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4/30/2012 7:11:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 11:06:45 AM, DanT wrote:
Left wing and right wing

Left Wing means Reformism
Right Wig means Traditionalism

(n) right, right wing (those who support political or social or economic conservatism; those who believe that things are better left unchanged)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(n) left, left wing (those who support varying degrees of social or political or economic change designed to promote the public welfare)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Viper-King
Posts: 4,822
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4/30/2012 7:13:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 11:12:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
The real left vs right.

A classical left v right is fascists and Nazis on the far right, communists on the far left, and political moderates in the middle. But those who use this model fail to define their terms on fascism and Nazism. This makes confusion amongst people. So the real spectrum should be:
Not really. I was labeled a fascist for being about big government and communism is stateless so basically anarcy.

100% government power on the far left
Contradictory. Communisms believe in 0% government power.
~50% in the middle
You could say that.
and 0% in the far right
Total bias. The far right believes in small government. That's still a government though. rite?

On the far left we have communists, fascists, Nazis, and any totalitarian nation, as based on minor governmental left right scales this makes sense.
Bias.

Around the left, but not 100% is oligarchy, 75% power.
not reallly.

In the middle we have america, constitutional centrists.
bias

And on the far right we have classical anarchists (no government).
bias

So the left and right scale we hear often is flawed and should be replaced by the above.

BIAS.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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4/30/2012 7:17:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 7:11:02 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 11:06:45 AM, DanT wrote:
Left wing and right wing

Left Wing means Reformism
Right Wig means Traditionalism

(n) right, right wing (those who support political or social or economic conservatism; those who believe that things are better left unchanged)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(n) left, left wing (those who support varying degrees of social or political or economic change designed to promote the public welfare)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

There's any number of definitions that can be used for right-wing. Regardless, even using "traditionalism" a tyrant that takes over for another tyrant and conserves the original order - like Kim Jung Un, can be right-wing. I guess it depends what you mean by "traditionalism" but if it's making few changes to previous orders then it seems like right-wing tyranny has been pretty common throughout history.
DanT
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4/30/2012 8:44:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 7:17:24 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 4/30/2012 7:11:02 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 11:06:45 AM, DanT wrote:
Left wing and right wing

Left Wing means Reformism
Right Wig means Traditionalism

(n) right, right wing (those who support political or social or economic conservatism; those who believe that things are better left unchanged)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(n) left, left wing (those who support varying degrees of social or political or economic change designed to promote the public welfare)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

There's any number of definitions that can be used for right-wing. Regardless, even using "traditionalism" a tyrant that takes over for another tyrant and conserves the original order - like Kim Jung Un, can be right-wing. I guess it depends what you mean by "traditionalism" but if it's making few changes to previous orders then it seems like right-wing tyranny has been pretty common throughout history.

That's ideological conservatism, I'm talking about the government's constitution not the politicians in government
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/30/2012 8:47:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.

It's not. DanT is just trapped in the false Left/Right paradigm.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DanT
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4/30/2012 8:55:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 8:47:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/30/2012 6:15:13 PM, Contra wrote:
At 4/30/2012 5:28:06 PM, DanT wrote:
monarchy is right wing tyranny is left wing

I thought tyranny wasn't limited to left or right.

It's not. DanT is just trapped in the false Left/Right paradigm.

Assertion
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/30/2012 9:42:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 8:55:37 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 8:47:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
It's not. DanT is just trapped in the false Left/Right paradigm.

Assertion

Lol. Look at every thread you've posted in the Politics forum. All criticism of the Left, nothing but praise for the Right.

I'm a critic of both the Left and the Right.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DanT
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5/1/2012 9:35:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/30/2012 9:42:37 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/30/2012 8:55:37 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 8:47:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
It's not. DanT is just trapped in the false Left/Right paradigm.

Assertion

Lol. Look at every thread you've posted in the Politics forum. All criticism of the Left, nothing but praise for the Right.

I'm a critic of both the Left and the Right.

But if you look at my posts, you see that I'm not fond of many on the right either. I'm a classic liberal, so naturally I would find myself more aligned with the right than with the left.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/1/2012 11:32:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/1/2012 9:35:06 AM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 9:42:37 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/30/2012 8:55:37 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/30/2012 8:47:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
It's not. DanT is just trapped in the false Left/Right paradigm.

Assertion

Lol. Look at every thread you've posted in the Politics forum. All criticism of the Left, nothing but praise for the Right.

I'm a critic of both the Left and the Right.

But if you look at my posts, you see that I'm not fond of many on the right either. I'm a classic liberal, so naturally I would find myself more aligned with the right than with the left.

I'm a libertarian, and while I agree with many things on the left (gay marriage, legalization of drugs, etc.) those issues really aren't that important to me. The only thing that might be important to me is prostitution. Even if drugs were legalized, the kind of job I do (nuclear engineering) will likely require me to be drug-free anyway.

What's most important to me is good economic policy so I'm more likely to favor republican then democrtats.
Open borders debate:
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GeoLaureate8
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5/1/2012 1:09:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/1/2012 11:32:12 AM, darkkermit wrote:

I'm a libertarian, and while I agree with many things on the left (gay marriage, legalization of drugs, etc.) those issues really aren't that important to me. The only thing that might be important to me is prostitution. Even if drugs were legalized, the kind of job I do (nuclear engineering) will likely require me to be drug-free anyway.

Doubtful. Employers don't care if youre drug free, they just don't want you on illegal drugs. They don't test for alcohol, nitrous oxide, spice, and salvia. Just the illegal ones.

What's most important to me is good economic policy so I'm more likely to favor republican then democrtats.

Oh, so just because you won't benefit from certain freedoms you don't care about freedom for all. I can't believe you'd be so willing to give up civil liberties like that.

Republicans want to control your social life. They want to put cameras in your bedroom to stop you from doing anything other than traditional missionary position, they want to ban videogames, censor the media, control your religious life, and they want to send you to war.

.
.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DanT
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5/1/2012 7:13:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/1/2012 4:51:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I made this awhile ago. A bit more complicated than the usual political compass.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...

This one is a government constitution political spectrum chart
http://www.debate.org...

This one is a politician ideology political spectrum chart
http://www.debate.org...
Here is the simplified version
http://www.debate.org...
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle