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Going overseas to avoid US laws

PervRat
Posts: 963
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7/31/2009 4:26:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Should people be allowed to circumvent any law they wish by going to a country where what would be a crime here is not illegal?

I present the following examples (for each, assume the person doing this is and claims to be a U.S. citizen) -
Using slave labor to produce goods in a country that has lax slavery laws (and/or has lax enforcement of slave labor laws)
Having sex with a pre-pubescent child in a country with no anti-child rape laws (and/or lax enforcement of such laws)
Using banned, toxic materials to produce goods in a country that does not ban them
Declaring one's headquarters to be in a foreign country (like Libya) to avoid paying U.S. taxes despite doing the vast majority of one's business in the U.S. (the way cruise lines typically operate)

Should all of these be allowed? Should none of them? Should we pick and choose which to or which not to allow?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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7/31/2009 4:33:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 4:26:05 PM, PervRat wrote:
Should people be allowed to circumvent any law they wish by going to a country where what would be a crime here is not illegal?

Are you suggesting that the USFG should take over the world?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
PervRat
Posts: 963
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7/31/2009 4:39:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 4:33:02 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 7/31/2009 4:26:05 PM, PervRat wrote:
Should people be allowed to circumvent any law they wish by going to a country where what would be a crime here is not illegal?

Are you suggesting that the USFG should take over the world?

I'm asking questions. What U.S. laws are acceptable for U.S. citizens to violate by going to a foreign country? Do federal laws against, say, child rape or murder magically not apply when you hop on a plane/boat/car and cross a magical international boundary? Is raping an 8 year old girl okay for a U.S. citizen to do?
LB628
Posts: 176
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7/31/2009 5:58:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 4:39:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 7/31/2009 4:33:02 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 7/31/2009 4:26:05 PM, PervRat wrote:
Should people be allowed to circumvent any law they wish by going to a country where what would be a crime here is not illegal?

Are you suggesting that the USFG should take over the world?

I'm asking questions. What U.S. laws are acceptable for U.S. citizens to violate by going to a foreign country? Do federal laws against, say, child rape or murder magically not apply when you hop on a plane/boat/car and cross a magical international boundary? Is raping an 8 year old girl okay for a U.S. citizen to do?

No, it is not ok. It is legal, but not morally acceptable. Federal laws do not apply outside of the jurisdiction of the United States, but that has nothing to do with moral acceptability.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/31/2009 6:02:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
lol @ Rezz.

I don't see a way to address this without asserting tyranny.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/31/2009 8:43:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It isn't legal nor acceptable for domestic laws to apply to those that go overseas and commit their deeds. It would be akin to saying that 19 year olds who cross the border into Ontario to drink, since the legal age is 19 here, would have to be arrested upon their return to the US. It makes no sense - if the law was not committed in your territory, you cannot prosecute someone for it (unless it was a war crime against US soldiers, or something along those lines.)

But, that being said, there is nothing stopping the government from making a deal with the other country in order to prosecute criminals under their laws. Like rape, for instance; the government could make a deal with the country to make sure that their citizen that violated the law there was prosecuted there, but returned to their country to serve out their sentence, or part of their sentence, etc. That would usually only apply though if the prosecuting country was known to have poor human rights in their prisons, or sentenced their citizen to the death penalty, etc.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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7/31/2009 9:29:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
What stops us from passing laws along the lines of, say, a U.S. citizen who commits child rape will be prosecuted for it regardless of where they went to commit the crime?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/31/2009 9:36:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The free rider problem, the fact that it gives these countries incentives to take this stuff out of the open (i.e. to provide the service of secrecy to US citizens who do it) and thus reduce the odds of changing the law (if it's a crime you think should be a crime, and you think likely that popular pressure could be on your side about)... for starters...
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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7/31/2009 9:38:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 9:29:49 PM, PervRat wrote:
What stops us from passing laws along the lines of, say, a U.S. citizen who commits child rape will be prosecuted for it regardless of where they went to commit the crime?

Other governments.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/31/2009 9:58:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 9:29:49 PM, PervRat wrote:
What stops us from passing laws along the lines of, say, a U.S. citizen who commits child rape will be prosecuted for it regardless of where they went to commit the crime?

Mainly, like mongoose said, other countries, along with what R_R said as well.

If laws were put in place like that, then it would violate the sovereignty of other countries, causing judicial and foreign relations problems, as well as increase the chance of these crimes going even deeper underground.

The best thing to do is let citizens do what they want within other countries, so long as it is within their laws. If citizens break the laws in those countries, make sure they're prosecuted for it and maybe sent back to their country depending on the crime or punishment - let them know that their government will allow other countries prosecute them for broken laws, and that even if you are deported back to your own country, you're still doing the time. It gives them incentive not to do too much.

Otherwise, let them be.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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7/31/2009 10:19:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
How would it violate the sovereignty of other nations if we prosecuted U.S. citizens in U.S. courts for committing serious violations of U.S. law (such as child rape) even if the crime was committed in another country?
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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8/1/2009 7:01:01 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
How would you prove that a crime was committed in another country? You can't send the police to investigate, that's for sure.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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8/1/2009 7:21:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 7:01:01 AM, mongeese wrote:
How would you prove that a crime was committed in another country? You can't send the police to investigate, that's for sure.

Sure you can, record them on video, etc. The same way we gather other foreign intelligence. One of the ways we know for a fact that U.S. executives have done this is from video from investigative journalists shadowing them.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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8/1/2009 7:22:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
And how often does a criminal decide to perform his crime on video, without some way of protecting his identity so that the video is not sufficient evidence?
PervRat
Posts: 963
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8/1/2009 11:36:33 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 7:22:59 AM, mongeese wrote:
And how often does a criminal decide to perform his crime on video, without some way of protecting his identity so that the video is not sufficient evidence?

You didn't get what I wrote. Investigative journalists shadowed corporate executives from the U.S. without their knowledge and secretly recorded them going into these child brothels.

Similar techniques could be used. While its not as effective as the tools available on "home soil" to detect and investigate things like child rape ... really, isn't even catching one child rape in a thousand worth it?
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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8/1/2009 2:08:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Having sex with a pre-pubescent child in a country with no anti-child rape laws (and/or lax enforcement of such laws)

Brb, Philippines.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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8/1/2009 3:29:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 11:36:33 AM, PervRat wrote:
At 8/1/2009 7:22:59 AM, mongeese wrote:
And how often does a criminal decide to perform his crime on video, without some way of protecting his identity so that the video is not sufficient evidence?

You didn't get what I wrote. Investigative journalists shadowed corporate executives from the U.S. without their knowledge and secretly recorded them going into these child brothels.

Similar techniques could be used. While its not as effective as the tools available on "home soil" to detect and investigate things like child rape ... really, isn't even catching one child rape in a thousand worth it?

While I understand that child brothels might be abhorrent to you, (I say this because I don't know exactly why you are appalled by them; there's a number of different possible reasons) to say that we should prosecute people in the US for what they do in other countries simply does not follow. If you think that other countries should have the same laws as the US, cool, then go move to that other country and become a politician and make the law there. Or become a UN representative and make a law there.

If you aren't going to do that, then you're suggesting that the USFG should take over the world.

Are the actions taken by theses CEOs morally proscribed? Perhaps.
But that's not how laws work.

If you don't like how the laws work, that's fine, there are plenty of other actions you can take - stop supporting that company. Start a facebook group. Write articles. Become a politician. Make youtube videos. Or like I said earlier, go to that country and change the laws there.

But that's not how laws work. You can't prosecute people for actions they do in other countries.

Well.....

Theoretically you could become a US politician and suggest that a requisite for US citizenship is to sign a contract agreeing that one would be subject to US law even when not on US soil... but you'd never succed with that, and if you did, there'd be an exodus greater than any we've ever seen in history.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Chuckles
Posts: 274
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8/1/2009 3:44:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
well, this doesn't solve the child rape part, but if you are worried enough to change this, you could disallow those companies from selling anything in the US until they prove they are slave-labor free, yadayadayada.
Bad idea, but if you're that committed, i guess...
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/1/2009 5:31:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The problem, PervRat, is that it would be seen as disrespect and a violation of sovereignty if the United States officially, or unofficially, sent agents everywhere to watch every US citizen, not to mention the skyrocketing costs for doing such a thing.

I mean, do you really think a country would appreciate it if the United States claimed de jure judicial power in territories it didn't control? Domestic law is called 'domestic' for a reason. And the government can't extend its authority past territory it owns - and a US citizen is not "territory."
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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8/5/2009 7:53:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 2:08:58 PM, s0m31john wrote:
Having sex with a pre-pubescent child in a country with no anti-child rape laws (and/or lax enforcement of such laws)

Brb, Philippines.

If this is serious, I don't like you and I hope you die before you get to rape a child, which certainly appears to be on the cards.

If it's a joke, I still don't like you but don't particularly wish death upon you. Maybe a beating.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/5/2009 11:09:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It's a joke, on grounds of "3D pig disgusting."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.