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French Elect a Socialist

Contra
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5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 4:49:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
France's relations with the CDR coalition will start to weaken, and the Euro may get worse. Devastating news for the euro, because Hollande has to make grounds with Merkel (as she needs to form a Krosse Koalition with the social democrats next year to stay in office). Hollande has already made solemn judgement on removing eurobonds, and will probably go further later on.

Does not affect NATO.

The European Economy, I'll take that to mean the French economy, as any well versed euro-focused economist slash politician will know that the European economy is basically each nation's economy plus a little extra based on the EU bureaucrats.

The French economy will become anti-austerity, and try to go for some long term Economics, whilst taxing more heavily on the rich to secure political voters (and anyone who goes "boo, the rich people are good" at this doesn't understand French economics and politics the majority of the time). I'm worried that his economy-boosting measures through injection will not be enough, because he is not helping with removing the bureaucracy of France, but from what I've heard his plan may still work very successfully due to innovative funding (I'm getting this info from other economists I know, I focus on the political aspect).

I'd like to point out he is anti-Keynesian for a solution due to Sapin's advice (who wrote the economic aspect of his manifesto), but he is strangely following (albeit gingerly) a Keynesian solution.

I could go in more depth if you want, but after this would be riddled in speculation.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
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5/6/2012 4:54:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the Greek election is something far more significant. They just kicked out their two major parties in favor of a ton of small anti-bailout parties.

Imagine if Americans kicked out Republicans and Democrats. That's the significance.

Also, Socialism is not by any stretch a radical notion in Europe. They elect openly Socialist candidates all the time. We've even elected one in America: Bernie Sanders.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 4:55:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 4:54:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I think the Greek election is something far more significant. They just kicked out their two major parties in favor of a ton of small anti-bailout parties.

Imagine if Americans kicked out Republicans and Democrats. That's the significance.

Also, Socialism is not by any stretch a radical notion in Europe. They elect openly Socialist candidates all the time. We've even elected one in America: Bernie Sanders.

^this to an extent. French elections are still very important.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Contra
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5/6/2012 5:01:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

But still... 75%? The Laffer Curve would show that this is too high, and reduces effort by the wealthiest in earning income.

Paul Krugman said that to get the average measure of the Laffer Curve requires some basic calculus.

To determine the increase of proportion of the taxes collected, would be (100*15/60), or a 25% increase in the proportion of taxes increased, assuming 60% was the former rate having a 15 point increase.

To prevent a fall in revenue would require a reduction of effort less than 25% (because the proportion taxed is 25% higher). That equation would be (100*15/40), or 37.5%, the 15 representing the 15 points of increase in taxation, and 40 being the former amount of the money after taxes (percentage of 100, assuming the former rate was 60%).

Since the revenue increase at the top rate would be 25%, and the decrease would be 37.5% in effort, there would be a reduction in revenue. However, this does not take into count the increase in demand that would likely result from a more generous welfare state, which would counteract the decrease in effort, so the revenue loss would be less extreme.

So, as Krugman says the Laffer Curve is somewhat wonkish.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com...

^
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
ConservativePolitico
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5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 5:08:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:01:55 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

I'd respond to what you said, but:

French economics is different than the rest of the world due to the culture and especially the culture of the rich.

There is no reference to the political impact: the real reason (i would say) that it was done in the first place.

I realise this sounds harsh, but I'm really not in the mood to discuss French Politics due to the fact that it's 11 at night here, after a game of football where my arm is near bloody broken. I AM NOT HAPPY. Seriously and on topic though, French Politics overlaps with Economics to the extent that you cannot discuss one without the other, and "when you have to explain your decisions in politics, you've failed".
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 5:09:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?

For God's sake.... If you want me to explain how utterly utterly idiotic this statement is, message me tomorrow when I am not half-asleep. But this is utterly blind to the culture of France.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 5:10:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:09:42 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?

For God's sake.... If you want me to explain how utterly utterly idiotic this statement is, message me tomorrow when I am not half-asleep. But this is utterly blind to the culture of France.

This sounds a lot more rude than I meant. I meant more like: "This would be true, but you're ignoring all of French culture, especially the French response to the rich".
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
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5/6/2012 5:11:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
75% is supposed to technically be the highest amount of revenue that can be collected. Any higher results in tax-fraud that outweighs the rate.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 5:12:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
75% is supposed to technically be the highest amount of revenue that can be collected. Any higher results in tax-fraud that outweighs the rate.

Is this true? Can you expand on that slightly: that's something I didn't know...
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
ConservativePolitico
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5/6/2012 5:14:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:10:44 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:09:42 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?

For God's sake.... If you want me to explain how utterly utterly idiotic this statement is, message me tomorrow when I am not half-asleep. But this is utterly blind to the culture of France.

This sounds a lot more rude than I meant. I meant more like: "This would be true, but you're ignoring all of French culture, especially the French response to the rich".

Well sorry I'm not an expert on French culture.
Thaddeus
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5/6/2012 5:16:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:12:21 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
75% is supposed to technically be the highest amount of revenue that can be collected. Any higher results in tax-fraud that outweighs the rate.

Is this true? Can you expand on that slightly: that's something I didn't know...

Sorry, utterly false. Not that it couldn't be the value, but because the Laffer curve can not be predicted accurately, let alone universally
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 5:17:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:14:08 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:10:44 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:09:42 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?

For God's sake.... If you want me to explain how utterly utterly idiotic this statement is, message me tomorrow when I am not half-asleep. But this is utterly blind to the culture of France.

This sounds a lot more rude than I meant. I meant more like: "This would be true, but you're ignoring all of French culture, especially the French response to the rich".

Well sorry I'm not an expert on French culture.

Most aren't. It's an intricate web of culture, politics and economics. You have to keep an eye on all three issues. Sorry again if that sounded rude before: I'm not in a good mood.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 5:17:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:16:27 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:12:21 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
75% is supposed to technically be the highest amount of revenue that can be collected. Any higher results in tax-fraud that outweighs the rate.

Is this true? Can you expand on that slightly: that's something I didn't know...

Sorry, utterly false. Not that it couldn't be the value, but because the Laffer curve can not be predicted accurately, let alone universally

Oh Laffer Curve... I was thinking Constitution... lol.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Contra
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5/6/2012 5:18:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:17:43 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:16:27 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:12:21 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
75% is supposed to technically be the highest amount of revenue that can be collected. Any higher results in tax-fraud that outweighs the rate.

Is this true? Can you expand on that slightly: that's something I didn't know...

Sorry, utterly false. Not that it couldn't be the value, but because the Laffer curve can not be predicted accurately, let alone universally

Oh Laffer Curve... I was thinking Constitution... lol.

Dude you must be sleep deprived if you were thinking that
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/6/2012 5:19:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:18:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:17:43 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:16:27 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:12:21 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
75% is supposed to technically be the highest amount of revenue that can be collected. Any higher results in tax-fraud that outweighs the rate.

Is this true? Can you expand on that slightly: that's something I didn't know...

Sorry, utterly false. Not that it couldn't be the value, but because the Laffer curve can not be predicted accurately, let alone universally

Oh Laffer Curve... I was thinking Constitution... lol.

Dude you must be sleep deprived if you were thinking that

Yeah... I'm just gonna get off the computer and sleep. Cya.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
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5/6/2012 5:23:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:12:21 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
75% is supposed to technically be the highest amount of revenue that can be collected. Any higher results in tax-fraud that outweighs the rate.

Is this true? Can you expand on that slightly: that's something I didn't know...

I'm looking for the video. An Economist. Could obviously be wrong. Sounds like it makes sense though.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
darkkermit
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5/6/2012 5:24:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:14:08 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:10:44 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:09:42 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?

For God's sake.... If you want me to explain how utterly utterly idiotic this statement is, message me tomorrow when I am not half-asleep. But this is utterly blind to the culture of France.

This sounds a lot more rude than I meant. I meant more like: "This would be true, but you're ignoring all of French culture, especially the French response to the rich".

Well sorry I'm not an expert on French culture.

Wait your telling me that in French culture individual agents don't want to increase their wealth? Your also telling me that individual agents are also willing to work more hours for less pay?

That's amazing! How about if the french citizens are so selfless, why don't they just get rid of the state and the people will just work "to each according to their ability, to each according to their need".
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DanT
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5/6/2012 7:19:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 4:37:38 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The French have elected Hollande the hard left socialist candidate.

How does this affect the Euro?

NATO?

The European Economy?

Discuss.

Why would it effect NATO?
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
ConservativePolitico
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5/6/2012 7:49:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 7:19:12 PM, DanT wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:37:38 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The French have elected Hollande the hard left socialist candidate.

How does this affect the Euro?

NATO?

The European Economy?

Discuss.

Why would it effect NATO?

The way the French President operates in NATO? I don't know, I was trying to facilitate discussion.
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/7/2012 6:00:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 7:49:34 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 7:19:12 PM, DanT wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:37:38 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The French have elected Hollande the hard left socialist candidate.

How does this affect the Euro?

NATO?

The European Economy?

Discuss.

Why would it effect NATO?

The way the French President operates in NATO? I don't know, I was trying to facilitate discussion.

In Europe, we have a lot more of a "unity" in the sense that new presidents don't massively change military unions and treaties. That said, the euro will receive a change, surprisingly. I mean, look at the changes under Gauck Regarding the EU....
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/7/2012 6:05:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:24:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:14:08 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:10:44 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:09:42 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?

For God's sake.... If you want me to explain how utterly utterly idiotic this statement is, message me tomorrow when I am not half-asleep. But this is utterly blind to the culture of France.

This sounds a lot more rude than I meant. I meant more like: "This would be true, but you're ignoring all of French culture, especially the French response to the rich".

Well sorry I'm not an expert on French culture.

Wait your telling me that in French culture individual agents don't want to increase their wealth? Your also telling me that individual agents are also willing to work more hours for less pay?

That's amazing! How about if the french citizens are so selfless, why don't they just get rid of the state and the people will just work "to each according to their ability, to each according to their need".

I'm really not in the mood to explain all of French politics, Gaullism and Socialist party. But long story short "from each according to their ability, to each according to their contribution" was the slogan of the Socialist party.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Aaronroy
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5/7/2012 2:38:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 5:04:49 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:50:51 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 5/6/2012 4:45:02 PM, Contra wrote:
I think a 75% top tax rate is too high. At worst make it 60%.

Can I refer this to my "boo high tax rate" point? The 75% tax rate idea is something that is just genius by Hollande to begin with that near-all candidates then adopted due to the safety of the idea.

You don't think the rich won't leave or hide their money elsewhere?

They already do.
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lewis20
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5/8/2012 11:57:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think it's proof positive that democracy doesn't work, also the election in Greece. The people reject austerity by electing a socialist and in Greece's case I heard they elected Communists, neo-nazis and nihilists. It falls right in line with Alexander Tytler's quote about the majority voting themselves the treasury. Despite the fact that Austerity is the only option left to these countries, the majority reject it in favor of promises that can't be kept.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." Alexander Tytler
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RoyLatham
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5/8/2012 2:55:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My understanding is that the current marginal tax rate in France is 50%, and that even that rate is causing significant numbers of rich people to relocate to London. We would expect that increase.

the effect of high tax rates depends upon the number of loopholes. High tax rates in the U.S. after WWII had little effect because there were so many ways to avoid them. If there are no loopholes, money flees.
Ameriman
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5/8/2012 3:50:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is very disheartening.

Sarkozy was a weak president, but Hollande is even weaker.

And, even worse, Hollande is proposing disasterous economic policies like massive tax hikes, a turn away from stable fiscal and monetary policy, and even further expansion of the already bloated French welfare state.

I guess France can say hello to another 30 years of being the joke of the first world.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
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ConservativePolitico
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5/8/2012 4:38:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/8/2012 3:50:13 PM, Ameriman wrote:
This is very disheartening.

Sarkozy was a weak president, but Hollande is even weaker.

And, even worse, Hollande is proposing disasterous economic policies like massive tax hikes, a turn away from stable fiscal and monetary policy, and even further expansion of the already bloated French welfare state.

I guess France can say hello to another 30 years of being the joke of the first world.

Hollande never held public office. He was in league with the anti-austerity group there. He has a mistress. Wants to increase spending. Germany already is ticked with him and he hasn't even taken office.

Good luck to him...