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Question to everyone

imabench
Posts: 21,219
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5/12/2012 11:54:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What is the actual time limit that people feel needs to pass for someone to NOT flip flop about an opinion? I think we can assume that any change in opinion in 73 seconds could be a flip flop, but where is the line drawn? Peoples opinions change over time through new experiences and new information being gathered, but what really is an acceptable amount of time for a person or a politician to change their mind on an issue without being called a "flip flopper"?

http://poll.pollcode.com...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/12/2012 11:57:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There's a minor error in the question. I think you mean when is it okay to change one's opinion back-and-forth. I'd say hardly ever. Just shows one is intellectually dishonest.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/13/2012 12:03:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 11:57:09 PM, Mirza wrote:
There's a minor error in the question. I think you mean when is it okay to change one's opinion back-and-forth. I'd say hardly ever. Just shows one is intellectually dishonest.

Have you ever heard the phrase consistency is the sign of a small mind?

Depends on why you flip flop too.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/13/2012 12:06:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:03:45 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/12/2012 11:57:09 PM, Mirza wrote:
There's a minor error in the question. I think you mean when is it okay to change one's opinion back-and-forth. I'd say hardly ever. Just shows one is intellectually dishonest.

Have you ever heard the phrase consistency is the sign of a small mind?
There's nothing wrong with changing one's mind, but flip-flopping is a clear indication of intellectual dishonesty. For example, if I say I am for death penalty, a month after I'm against, then I'm for, etc., then that isn't mere inconsistency - it's nonsensical flip-flopping. It indicates that I might be changing my views to suit my environment, reach a political goal, etc. That's improper.
16kadams
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5/13/2012 12:09:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:06:42 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:03:45 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/12/2012 11:57:09 PM, Mirza wrote:
There's a minor error in the question. I think you mean when is it okay to change one's opinion back-and-forth. I'd say hardly ever. Just shows one is intellectually dishonest.

Have you ever heard the phrase consistency is the sign of a small mind?
There's nothing wrong with changing one's mind, but flip-flopping is a clear indication of intellectual dishonesty. For example, if I say I am for death penalty, a month after I'm against, then I'm for, etc., then that isn't mere inconsistency - it's nonsensical flip-flopping. It indicates that I might be changing my views to suit my environment, reach a political goal, etc. That's improper.

Yes, I agree, but if you truly believe the change it is ok, do you agree?
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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5/13/2012 12:12:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:09:51 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:06:42 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:03:45 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/12/2012 11:57:09 PM, Mirza wrote:
There's a minor error in the question. I think you mean when is it okay to change one's opinion back-and-forth. I'd say hardly ever. Just shows one is intellectually dishonest.

Have you ever heard the phrase consistency is the sign of a small mind?
There's nothing wrong with changing one's mind, but flip-flopping is a clear indication of intellectual dishonesty. For example, if I say I am for death penalty, a month after I'm against, then I'm for, etc., then that isn't mere inconsistency - it's nonsensical flip-flopping. It indicates that I might be changing my views to suit my environment, reach a political goal, etc. That's improper.

Yes, I agree, but if you truly believe the change it is ok, do you agree?

you would need a damn good reason depending on how much time has passed.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/13/2012 12:13:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't think there is a time limit; its just that you better stick to what you announce publicly. It isn't really a problem on informal websites like these, but it really matters in the Congressional Office. If you change your mind about a policy mid-term, thats not good for the people who elected you.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/13/2012 12:13:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:12:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:09:51 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:06:42 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:03:45 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/12/2012 11:57:09 PM, Mirza wrote:
There's a minor error in the question. I think you mean when is it okay to change one's opinion back-and-forth. I'd say hardly ever. Just shows one is intellectually dishonest.

Have you ever heard the phrase consistency is the sign of a small mind?
There's nothing wrong with changing one's mind, but flip-flopping is a clear indication of intellectual dishonesty. For example, if I say I am for death penalty, a month after I'm against, then I'm for, etc., then that isn't mere inconsistency - it's nonsensical flip-flopping. It indicates that I might be changing my views to suit my environment, reach a political goal, etc. That's improper.

Yes, I agree, but if you truly believe the change it is ok, do you agree?

you would need a damn good reason depending on how much time has passed.

That was aimed at me XD
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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5/13/2012 12:14:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:13:26 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
I don't think there is a time limit; its just that you better stick to what you announce publicly. It isn't really a problem on informal websites like these, but it really matters in the Congressional Office. If you change your mind about a policy mid-term, thats not good for the people who elected you.

Even if they had a good reason?
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/13/2012 12:14:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
But then again, if you were some crazy OWS guy in your college years and you get caught on camera spewing rubbish, and later run as a Republican, I don't think that would count as flip-flopping.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/13/2012 12:14:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:09:51 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Yes, I agree, but if you truly believe the change it is ok, do you agree?
That doesn't really deal with the underlying reasons for believing that one honestly changes his mind. It's possible to actually do so, but that can still be a result of intellectual dishonesty (or fear), instinct to adapt to one's environment, reach a political goal, etc.

Though I think if one changes his opinion commonly on one issue or two almost identical issues, then that's more excusable. For instance, supporting no War on Drugs, then supporting the legalization of all drugs, then going back to support marijuana only - could be acceptable as long as one doesn't have a history of doing a similar drift with all kinds of issues.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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5/13/2012 12:15:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:14:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:13:26 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
I don't think there is a time limit; its just that you better stick to what you announce publicly. It isn't really a problem on informal websites like these, but it really matters in the Congressional Office. If you change your mind about a policy mid-term, thats not good for the people who elected you.

Even if they had a good reason?

Yes.
President of DDO
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/13/2012 12:15:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:14:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:13:26 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
I don't think there is a time limit; its just that you better stick to what you announce publicly. It isn't really a problem on informal websites like these, but it really matters in the Congressional Office. If you change your mind about a policy mid-term, thats not good for the people who elected you.

Even if they had a good reason?

It's unlikely the voters will all have the same sudden realization that their position on that policy is incorrect.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/13/2012 12:17:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:13:35 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Lol, I flip all the time.

I follow the evidence, nothing else.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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5/13/2012 12:18:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:15:56 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:14:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:13:26 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
I don't think there is a time limit; its just that you better stick to what you announce publicly. It isn't really a problem on informal websites like these, but it really matters in the Congressional Office. If you change your mind about a policy mid-term, thats not good for the people who elected you.

Even if they had a good reason?

It's unlikely the voters will all have the same sudden realization that their position on that policy is incorrect.

thats very true but this concerns the politician and whether or not he is a flip flopper, not whether or not he is accurately representing his voters
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/13/2012 12:19:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:14:42 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:09:51 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Yes, I agree, but if you truly believe the change it is ok, do you agree?
That doesn't really deal with the underlying reasons for believing that one honestly changes his mind. It's possible to actually do so, but that can still be a result of intellectual dishonesty (or fear), instinct to adapt to one's environment, reach a political goal, etc.

Though I think if one changes his opinion commonly on one issue or two almost identical issues, then that's more excusable. For instance, supporting no War on Drugs, then supporting the legalization of all drugs, then going back to support marijuana only - could be acceptable as long as one doesn't have a history of doing a similar drift with all kinds of issues.

So you say one time flip flops are ok as long as they have a stellar reason?
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/13/2012 12:22:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:18:16 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:15:56 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:14:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:13:26 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
I don't think there is a time limit; its just that you better stick to what you announce publicly. It isn't really a problem on informal websites like these, but it really matters in the Congressional Office. If you change your mind about a policy mid-term, thats not good for the people who elected you.

Even if they had a good reason?

It's unlikely the voters will all have the same sudden realization that their position on that policy is incorrect.

thats very true but this concerns the politician and whether or not he is a flip flopper, not whether or not he is accurately representing his voters

I for one don't elect people based on their moral principles. The thought of a moonbase almost drove me to Gingrich, to be honest. (I want one so badly)

Some might evaluate this as bad moral character, but it just shows me that this man/woman might not accurately represent my views during his/her time in office.

(Again) For instance, I doubt Romney will do anything about abortion during his presidency.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/13/2012 12:24:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:18:16 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:15:56 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:14:22 AM, imabench wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:13:26 AM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
I don't think there is a time limit; its just that you better stick to what you announce publicly. It isn't really a problem on informal websites like these, but it really matters in the Congressional Office. If you change your mind about a policy mid-term, thats not good for the people who elected you.

Even if they had a good reason?

It's unlikely the voters will all have the same sudden realization that their position on that policy is incorrect.

thats very true but this concerns the politician and whether or not he is a flip flopper, not whether or not he is accurately representing his voters

I don't think I even responded to your question lol.

Yeah, flip-flopping shows bad moral character to some and to others it shows that the guy/gal might not represent your views well in office. Think of a man who has had 20 divorces. His next wife may be a bit skeptical.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/13/2012 12:26:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:19:49 AM, 16kadams wrote:
So you say one time flip flops are ok as long as they have a stellar reason?
I can't tell for every individual, because that would require me to know the underlying reasons behind their flip-flops. However, taking a hypothetical situation in consideration, I'd say that if a person is not changing his mind for nonsensical reasons, then there's little wrong with it.
16kadams
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5/13/2012 12:27:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:26:08 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:19:49 AM, 16kadams wrote:
So you say one time flip flops are ok as long as they have a stellar reason?
I can't tell for every individual, because that would require me to know the underlying reasons behind their flip-flops. However, taking a hypothetical situation in consideration, I'd say that if a person is not changing his mind for nonsensical reasons, then there's little wrong with it.

Ok we agree.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/13/2012 12:36:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 11:54:55 PM, imabench wrote:
What is the actual time limit that people feel needs to pass for someone to NOT flip flop about an opinion? I think we can assume that any change in opinion in 73 seconds could be a flip flop, but where is the line drawn? Peoples opinions change over time through new experiences and new information being gathered, but what really is an acceptable amount of time for a person or a politician to change their mind on an issue without being called a "flip flopper"?

http://poll.pollcode.com...

As people have mentioned, its not the "time" its "why". When politicians are accused of flip flopping what is being insinuated is that they have no conviction, and there change of opinions is for electoral advantage.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/13/2012 2:28:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's not about time.
A flip-flop is when someone changes their mind arbitrarily. In order for it not to be a flip flop, it must have a logical reason behind it.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle