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Obamacare Is Not Conservative

Ameriman
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5/13/2012 12:31:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've heard a lot of people say something like "Obamacare is conservative because conservatives supported the individual mandate in the 1990s, the Heritage Foundation endorsed an individual mandate, and Mitt Romney signed a health care reform bill with an individual mandate in Massachussetts".

That is a total misinterpretation. First, Obamacare includes numerous things that none of those previous initiatives included. It includes large tax increases. Mitt Romney nor any any Republicans ever endorsed a tax increase financed health care reform.

Second, it includes an individual mandate. Mitt Romney vetoed the part of the bill that included this (even though it was overridden) and this was always opposed by conservatives.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, Obamacare came from a group of people who supported single payer and saw this as a good first step towards that end. Romneycare came from the perspective of a free market oriented governor who wanted to fix health care with a market.

Now, as to the individual mandate, I oppose it. But, there is a lot more to Obamacare than that. And, it is also a federal bill. So, stop saying it is conservative. It isn't.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/13/2012 12:34:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Most people agree with you
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Ameriman
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5/13/2012 12:35:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:34:15 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Most people agree with you

Some do, but a lot of folks on the left do not.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
16kadams
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5/13/2012 12:35:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:35:02 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:34:15 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Most people agree with you

Some do, but a lot of folks on the left do not.

Meh
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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5/13/2012 12:37:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It conserves the idea of needing health care reform in this country. In that sense it's extremely conservative. In the near future we'll need health care reform for the health care reform. So it conserves forever that we will be needing reform for health care.
It also wasn't very liberal with the good ideas. In that sense it was very conservative with good ideas.

So it's kinda conservative...
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Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/13/2012 12:38:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:37:00 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
It conserves the idea of needing health care reform in this country. In that sense it's extremely conservative. In the near future we'll need health care reform for the health care reform. So it conserves forever that we will be needing reform for health care.
It also wasn't very liberal with the good ideas. In that sense it was very conservative with good ideas.

So it's kinda conservative...

Haha.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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5/13/2012 2:59:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Obamacare was created by a conservative think tank.
It is very similar to Romneycare.
The individual mandate is that core of the bill. And to the claim that it raises taxes, 1) Conservatives are perfectly fine with raising taxes for the poor and middle class (this was made very clear during the payroll tax debacle). 2) Obamacare does not raise taxes; it creates a few new minor ones. But I guess revenue isn't a very conservative concept either. In fact, managing budgets is something conservatives suck at, in general.
Sapere Aude!
Ameriman
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5/13/2012 3:11:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 2:59:47 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Obamacare was created by a conservative think tank.
It is very similar to Romneycare.
The individual mandate is that core of the bill. And to the claim that it raises taxes, 1) Conservatives are perfectly fine with raising taxes for the poor and middle class (this was made very clear during the payroll tax debacle). 2) Obamacare does not raise taxes; it creates a few new minor ones. But I guess revenue isn't a very conservative concept either. In fact, managing budgets is something conservatives suck at, in general.

1.) Obamacare was not created by a conservative think tank. That is just incorrect.

2.) The individual mandate is just one part of a massive 2700 page bill.

3.) Yes, they do. The payroll tax cut was meant to be temporary stimulus, it was never supposed to be permanent. It wasn't very effective. Not extending it is not a tax increase. And, before you go to the Bush tax cuts, they were not meant to be temporary. The administration was forced to make the temporary because of congressional pressures and they have been in place for 10 years... so that is different.

3.) Uh, it raises taxes by 500 Billion over the next 10 years.... So, that is just wrong. And, I don't think you should be talking about cons being bad budget managers... especially given how "well" this admin has done on that account.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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5/13/2012 3:56:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:31:13 AM, Ameriman wrote:
I've heard a lot of people say something like "Obamacare is conservative because conservatives supported the individual mandate in the 1990s, the Heritage Foundation endorsed an individual mandate, and Mitt Romney signed a health care reform bill with an individual mandate in Massachussetts".

That is a total misinterpretation. First, Obamacare includes numerous things that none of those previous initiatives included. It includes large tax increases. Mitt Romney nor any any Republicans ever endorsed a tax increase financed health care reform.

Second, it includes an individual mandate. Mitt Romney vetoed the part of the bill that included this (even though it was overridden) and this was always opposed by conservatives.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, Obamacare came from a group of people who supported single payer and saw this as a good first step towards that end. Romneycare came from the perspective of a free market oriented governor who wanted to fix health care with a market.

Now, as to the individual mandate, I oppose it. But, there is a lot more to Obamacare than that. And, it is also a federal bill. So, stop saying it is conservative. It isn't.

You left out the bit about conservatives favoring the 10th amendment; healthcare reform is a state power, not a federal power
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/13/2012 11:45:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 12:31:13 AM, Ameriman wrote:
I've heard a lot of people say something like "Obamacare is conservative because conservatives supported the individual mandate in the 1990s, the Heritage Foundation endorsed an individual mandate, and Mitt Romney signed a health care reform bill with an individual mandate in Massachussetts".

If you are talking about DDO, I'm the only guy who said that, as well as Apollo.

That is a total misinterpretation. First, Obamacare includes numerous things that none of those previous initiatives included. It includes large tax increases. Mitt Romney nor any any Republicans ever endorsed a tax increase financed health care reform.

It reduces the deficit. Something conservatives *care* about I thought.

Second, it includes an individual mandate. Mitt Romney vetoed the part of the bill that included this (even though it was overridden) and this was always opposed by conservatives.

Bs. Romneycare was designed by a network of conservative/ right-wing think tanks.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, Obamacare came from a group of people who supported single payer and saw this as a good first step towards that end. Romneycare came from the perspective of a free market oriented governor who wanted to fix health care with a market.

No. Liberals who supported Single Payer national health insurance were pretty much blocked from giving their side of the debate. We supported at the bare minimum a public option, to increase the chance of the US evolving to a Single Payer nation for health care.

I know plenty of liberals who are unsatisfied.

Now, as to the individual mandate, I oppose it. But, there is a lot more to Obamacare than that. And, it is also a federal bill. So, stop saying it is conservative. It isn't.

But it is.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/13/2012 11:51:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 11:45:45 AM, Contra wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:31:13 AM, Ameriman wrote:
I've heard a lot of people say something like "Obamacare is conservative because conservatives supported the individual mandate in the 1990s, the Heritage Foundation endorsed an individual mandate, and Mitt Romney signed a health care reform bill with an individual mandate in Massachussetts".

If you are talking about DDO, I'm the only guy who said that, as well as Apollo.

That is a total misinterpretation. First, Obamacare includes numerous things that none of those previous initiatives included. It includes large tax increases. Mitt Romney nor any any Republicans ever endorsed a tax increase financed health care reform.

It reduces the deficit. Something conservatives *care* about I thought.

Common myth. New studies are emerging that refute that statement. Also it makes no sense as it adds people to the governments plans. Makes no logical sense. "President Obama's landmark healthcare overhaul is projected to cost $1.76 trillion over a decade, reports the Congressional Budget Office, a hefty sum more than the $940 billion estimated when the healthcare legislation was signed into law."
http://news.yahoo.com...


Second, it includes an individual mandate. Mitt Romney vetoed the part of the bill that included this (even though it was overridden) and this was always opposed by conservatives.

Bs. Romneycare was designed by a network of conservative/ right-wing think tanks.

No clue on this one.


Third, and perhaps most importantly, Obamacare came from a group of people who supported single payer and saw this as a good first step towards that end. Romneycare came from the perspective of a free market oriented governor who wanted to fix health care with a market.

No. Liberals who supported Single Payer national health insurance were pretty much blocked from giving their side of the debate. We supported at the bare minimum a public option, to increase the chance of the US evolving to a Single Payer nation for health care.

Blocked?

I know plenty of liberals who are unsatisfied.

Now, as to the individual mandate, I oppose it. But, there is a lot more to Obamacare than that. And, it is also a federal bill. So, stop saying it is conservative. It isn't.

But it is.

http://mittromneycentral.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/13/2012 12:01:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.heritage.org...

http://www.buzzfeed.com...

http://www.nytimes.com...

^
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/13/2012 11:01:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 11:45:45 AM, Contra wrote:
At 5/13/2012 12:31:13 AM, Ameriman wrote:
I've heard a lot of people say something like "Obamacare is conservative because conservatives supported the individual mandate in the 1990s, the Heritage Foundation endorsed an individual mandate, and Mitt Romney signed a health care reform bill with an individual mandate in Massachussetts".

If you are talking about DDO, I'm the only guy who said that, as well as Apollo.

Okay.


That is a total misinterpretation. First, Obamacare includes numerous things that none of those previous initiatives included. It includes large tax increases. Mitt Romney nor any any Republicans ever endorsed a tax increase financed health care reform.

It reduces the deficit. Something conservatives *care* about I thought.

No. That is a common myth.


Second, it includes an individual mandate. Mitt Romney vetoed the part of the bill that included this (even though it was overridden) and this was always opposed by conservatives.

Bs. Romneycare was designed by a network of conservative/ right-wing think tanks.

Right, but Romney vetoed a bunch of sections of it. What Romney supported is very different from Obamacare.


Third, and perhaps most importantly, Obamacare came from a group of people who supported single payer and saw this as a good first step towards that end. Romneycare came from the perspective of a free market oriented governor who wanted to fix health care with a market.

No. Liberals who supported Single Payer national health insurance were pretty much blocked from giving their side of the debate. We supported at the bare minimum a public option, to increase the chance of the US evolving to a Single Payer nation for health care.

Conservatives who supported market based reforms were also blocked.


I know plenty of liberals who are unsatisfied.

Now, as to the individual mandate, I oppose it. But, there is a lot more to Obamacare than that. And, it is also a federal bill. So, stop saying it is conservative. It isn't.

But it is.

No, it just isn't.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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5/13/2012 11:08:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Did those two coordinate their avatars...?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/13/2012 11:11:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 11:08:04 PM, M.Torres wrote:
Did those two coordinate their avatars...?

No. We are just both Reagan fans.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/13/2012 11:13:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 11:08:04 PM, M.Torres wrote:
Did those two coordinate their avatars...?

I didn't try too
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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5/13/2012 11:15:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 3:11:40 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/13/2012 2:59:47 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Obamacare was created by a conservative think tank.
It is very similar to Romneycare.
The individual mandate is that core of the bill. And to the claim that it raises taxes, 1) Conservatives are perfectly fine with raising taxes for the poor and middle class (this was made very clear during the payroll tax debacle). 2) Obamacare does not raise taxes; it creates a few new minor ones. But I guess revenue isn't a very conservative concept either. In fact, managing budgets is something conservatives suck at, in general.

1.) Obamacare was not created by a conservative think tank. That is just incorrect.
Sadly for you, the entire concept behind Obamacare is the brainchild of the Heritage Foundation.

2.) The individual mandate is just one part of a massive 2700 page bill.
It is a crucial part of the bill. If you knew anything about it, you would realize that. So crucial, in fact, that there is a non-sevarability clause attached to the mandate.

3.) Yes, they do. The payroll tax cut was meant to be temporary stimulus, it was never supposed to be permanent.
Defend it all you like. This is the right-wing nuts in favor of raising taxes. And it's obvious why.
It wasn't very effective.
Debatable. But that's besides the point. Trickle-down has DONE HARM. It was COUNTER-productive. But the right-wing idiots still favor it. It's obvious why.
Not extending it is not a tax increase.
That's exactly what it is.
And, before you go to the Bush tax cuts, they were not meant to be temporary. The administration was forced to make the temporary because of congressional pressures and they have been in place for 10 years... so that is different.
Good Sir, I don't give a sh*t.

3.) Uh, it raises taxes by 500 Billion over the next 10 years.... So, that is just wrong. And, I don't think you should be talking about cons being bad budget managers... especially given how "well" this admin has done on that account.
It doesn't raise taxes at all. And 500 billion (remember, this is ignoring benefits), that is about $15.00 a year per person. Compared to the lunacy of the republican years. To them, having to pay for what you spend was a ridiculous notion.
Sapere Aude!
16kadams
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5/13/2012 11:19:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 11:15:05 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 3:11:40 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/13/2012 2:59:47 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Obamacare was created by a conservative think tank.
It is very similar to Romneycare.
The individual mandate is that core of the bill. And to the claim that it raises taxes, 1) Conservatives are perfectly fine with raising taxes for the poor and middle class (this was made very clear during the payroll tax debacle). 2) Obamacare does not raise taxes; it creates a few new minor ones. But I guess revenue isn't a very conservative concept either. In fact, managing budgets is something conservatives suck at, in general.

1.) Obamacare was not created by a conservative think tank. That is just incorrect.
Sadly for you, the entire concept behind Obamacare is the brainchild of the Heritage Foundation.

2.) The individual mandate is just one part of a massive 2700 page bill.
It is a crucial part of the bill. If you knew anything about it, you would realize that. So crucial, in fact, that there is a non-sevarability clause attached to the mandate.

3.) Yes, they do. The payroll tax cut was meant to be temporary stimulus, it was never supposed to be permanent.
Defend it all you like. This is the right-wing nuts in favor of raising taxes. And it's obvious why.
It wasn't very effective.
Debatable. But that's besides the point. Trickle-down has DONE HARM. It was COUNTER-productive. But the right-wing idiots still favor it. It's obvious why.

Lol, your arguments fail when there are full of insults. Here's this.
http://www.econlib.org...

Not extending it is not a tax increase.
That's exactly what it is.
And, before you go to the Bush tax cuts, they were not meant to be temporary. The administration was forced to make the temporary because of congressional pressures and they have been in place for 10 years... so that is different.
Good Sir, I don't give a sh*t.

3.) Uh, it raises taxes by 500 Billion over the next 10 years.... So, that is just wrong. And, I don't think you should be talking about cons being bad budget managers... especially given how "well" this admin has done on that account.
It doesn't raise taxes at all. And 500 billion (remember, this is ignoring benefits), that is about $15.00 a year per person. Compared to the lunacy of the republican years. To them, having to pay for what you spend was a ridiculous notion.

That trickle down economics thing was the only thing that bothered me.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Apollo.11
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5/13/2012 11:25:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That trickle down economics thing was the only thing that bothered me.

Want to debate it? Looking strictly at the empirical evidence?
Sapere Aude!
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/13/2012 11:34:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 11:15:05 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 3:11:40 AM, Ameriman wrote:
At 5/13/2012 2:59:47 AM, Apollo.11 wrote:
Obamacare was created by a conservative think tank.
It is very similar to Romneycare.
The individual mandate is that core of the bill. And to the claim that it raises taxes, 1) Conservatives are perfectly fine with raising taxes for the poor and middle class (this was made very clear during the payroll tax debacle). 2) Obamacare does not raise taxes; it creates a few new minor ones. But I guess revenue isn't a very conservative concept either. In fact, managing budgets is something conservatives suck at, in general.

1.) Obamacare was not created by a conservative think tank. That is just incorrect.
Sadly for you, the entire concept behind Obamacare is the brainchild of the Heritage Foundation.

Hardly.

Just because they supported the individual mandate does not mean they support all of Obamacare.


2.) The individual mandate is just one part of a massive 2700 page bill.
It is a crucial part of the bill. If you knew anything about it, you would realize that. So crucial, in fact, that there is a non-sevarability clause attached to the mandate.

Right. It is important, but there is a lot more to it.


3.) Yes, they do. The payroll tax cut was meant to be temporary stimulus, it was never supposed to be permanent.
Defend it all you like. This is the right-wing nuts in favor of raising taxes. And it's obvious why.

No, its not. It is simply opposing a tax cut... opposing a tax cut is different from raising taxes.

It wasn't very effective.
Debatable. But that's besides the point. Trickle-down has DONE HARM. It was COUNTER-productive. But the right-wing idiots still favor it. It's obvious why.

Right. Nobody is arguing for trickle down. Stop using strawmen. And, Obamanomics has done a lot of harm...

Not extending it is not a tax increase.
That's exactly what it is.

No, it is not.

And, before you go to the Bush tax cuts, they were not meant to be temporary. The administration was forced to make the temporary because of congressional pressures and they have been in place for 10 years... so that is different.
Good Sir, I don't give a sh*t.

Okay.


3.) Uh, it raises taxes by 500 Billion over the next 10 years.... So, that is just wrong. And, I don't think you should be talking about cons being bad budget managers... especially given how "well" this admin has done on that account.
It doesn't raise taxes at all. And 500 billion (remember, this is ignoring benefits), that is about $15.00 a year per person. Compared to the lunacy of the republican years. To them, having to pay for what you spend was a ridiculous notion.

Yes. It does. Please, read the bill... if you have time... it raises taxes.

And, the debt has increased far more under Obama than under any Democrat.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
lannan13
Posts: 23,078
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5/14/2012 7:31:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It isn't endo story
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