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Anarchism and Appropriability

Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 11:08:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Appropriability: (economics) the environmental factors that govern an innovator's ability to capture profits generated by an innovation.

In a society with a legal court holding power over corporations, patents, copyrights, and trademarks can be legally enforced across a general populous, including other corporations.

In short, in a society with a government, the appropriability of innovation is high because it can be captured by the innovative firms.

However, in a society without a legal court presiding over all corporations, innovations cannot be legally enforced via potents or copyrights. As a result, rivalling firms can easily steal new innovations from innovative firms. This reduces the incentive to innovate by a lot.

In short, in a society without a government, the appropriability of innovation is very low.

In conclusion, an anarcho-capitalist society might actually stagnate innovation, instead of encourage it.

Thoughts? Feedback?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/13/2012 1:35:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That is where knee breaking comes in.

Er... I mean effective marketing.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/13/2012 1:37:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
But no, truthfully, the world is already an-cap, it's only the sheer amount of disinformation and bullshyt that has people believing otherwise.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Thaddeus
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5/13/2012 1:38:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:35:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
That is where knee breaking comes in.

Er... I mean effective marketing.

Knee breaking has been shown to be 22% less effective in increasing sales than a hot poker.
Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Thaddeus
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5/13/2012 1:39:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:37:07 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But no, truthfully, the world is already an-cap, it's only the sheer amount of disinformation and bullshyt that has people believing otherwise.

This is a defencible statement, depending on ones definitions.
Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 1:40:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:37:07 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But no, truthfully, the world is already an-cap, it's only the sheer amount of disinformation and bullshyt that has people believing otherwise.

Sigged.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Thaddeus
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5/13/2012 1:40:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

That is currently the case. Each country has its own courts. As for authority - that is solely dependent on what is recognized. I won't condescend to explain a polycentric legal system to you.
Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 1:43:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:40:53 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

That is currently the case. Each country has its own courts. As for authority - that is solely dependent on what is recognized. I won't condescend to explain a polycentric legal system to you.

This currently solely regards domestic disputes only.

The point is that no court can be recognized to have power over all corporations unless they all willingly consent, which is highly unlikely.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/13/2012 1:47:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:40:14 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:37:07 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But no, truthfully, the world is already an-cap, it's only the sheer amount of disinformation and bullshyt that has people believing otherwise.

Sigged.

You're just butthurt because you've been duped by propaganda into being the government's little beotch.

The illusion is breaking down though. One day, the curtains are going to fall, and the cardboard stage props will be knocked down to reveal nothing but a cold brick wall.

The emperor isn't wearing any clothes.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Thaddeus
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5/13/2012 1:47:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:43:00 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:40:53 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

That is currently the case. Each country has its own courts. As for authority - that is solely dependent on what is recognized. I won't condescend to explain a polycentric legal system to you.

This currently solely regards domestic disputes only.

But what is the difference? If the supposed disincentives don't exist abroad, why would they suddenly exist in a domestic situation?

The point is that no court can be recognized to have power over all corporations unless they all willingly consent, which is highly unlikely.

Why would they need power of all corporations? As I said before, that doesn't exist currently (due to the anarchy between states) so why is there an inherent difference between foreign competition and an an-cap society?
OMGJustinBieber
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5/13/2012 1:48:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:39:45 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:37:07 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But no, truthfully, the world is already an-cap, it's only the sheer amount of disinformation and bullshyt that has people believing otherwise.

This is a defencible statement, depending on ones definitions.

I could say the world is truthfully fascist and defend it. Not that I believe it's a particularly meaningful claim.
Thaddeus
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5/13/2012 1:49:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:48:07 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:45 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:37:07 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But no, truthfully, the world is already an-cap, it's only the sheer amount of disinformation and bullshyt that has people believing otherwise.

This is a defencible statement, depending on ones definitions.

I could say the world is truthfully fascist and defend it. Not that I believe it's a particularly meaningful claim.

This is also a defencible statement.
However, I was politely requesting Cosmic state his definitions.
Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 1:52:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:47:59 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:43:00 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:40:53 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

That is currently the case. Each country has its own courts. As for authority - that is solely dependent on what is recognized. I won't condescend to explain a polycentric legal system to you.

This currently solely regards domestic disputes only.

But what is the difference? If the supposed disincentives don't exist abroad, why would they suddenly exist in a domestic situation?

No invention's aproppriability can equal to "1." This is just impossible as eventually rival companies will catch on and foreign companies will as well. Both domestic and foreign companies are striving for the same achievement, so when you neutralize one threat (domestic), aproppriability obviously increases. It need not reach "1" for it to be profitable to innovate.

The point is that no court can be recognized to have power over all corporations unless they all willingly consent, which is highly unlikely.

Why would they need power of all corporations?

If you cannot enforce a patent on all corporations, then it will be stolen by rivals.

As I said before, that doesn't exist currently (due to the anarchy between states) so why is there an inherent difference between foreign competition and an an-cap society?

Mentioned previously.

It's the difference between 0 and 0.5.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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5/13/2012 1:53:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The government is merely a business with a very effective marketing department.

People willingly pay them to do what they do, and even believe that they have to.

If that isn't good marketing, I don't know what is.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
socialpinko
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5/13/2012 1:53:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

No warrant as to the justification of patents and copyrights. A large portion of self-described market anarchists don't think courts should recognize them in the first place.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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5/13/2012 1:55:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
But treating the state as somehow distinct due to its economic influence.... I'd consider that to be a special pleading fallacy.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 1:56:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:53:48 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

No warrant as to the justification of patents and copyrights. A large portion of self-described market anarchists don't think courts should recognize them in the first place.

In that case, aproppriability becomes 0 and innovation highly stagnates.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 1:57:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:55:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But treating the state as somehow distinct due to its economic influence.... I'd consider that to be a special pleading fallacy.

The State is different because it has legal influence over all corporations.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Thaddeus
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5/13/2012 1:59:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:52:57 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:47:59 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:43:00 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:40:53 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

That is currently the case. Each country has its own courts. As for authority - that is solely dependent on what is recognized. I won't condescend to explain a polycentric legal system to you.

This currently solely regards domestic disputes only.

But what is the difference? If the supposed disincentives don't exist abroad, why would they suddenly exist in a domestic situation?

No invention's aproppriability can equal to "1." This is just impossible as eventually rival companies will catch on and foreign companies will as well. Both domestic and foreign companies are striving for the same achievement, so when you neutralize one threat (domestic), aproppriability obviously increases. It need not reach "1" for it to be profitable to innovate.

So (limited) force should be used to ensure certain products success? That sounds familiar. Government should not pick winners and losers. The best product should win. If anyone can produce a product - they should be able to sell it.
If innovation becomes an issue, corporations would provide incentives to individuals.

The point is that no court can be recognized to have power over all corporations unless they all willingly consent, which is highly unlikely.

Why would they need power of all corporations?

If you cannot enforce a patent on all corporations, then it will be stolen by rivals.

As I said before, that doesn't exist currently (due to the anarchy between states) so why is there an inherent difference between foreign competition and an an-cap society?

Mentioned previously.

It's the difference between 0 and 0.5.

It would not be 0. Obviously. There would just be a smaller catchment field. There are still courts. For an analogy, consider a smaller nation compared to a larger one. The smaller nations court has authority over a fewer number of people and resolves fewer disputes. Are there any less incentives for innovation in smaller nations? Of course not. Competing courts would do the same.
Thaddeus
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5/13/2012 2:00:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:57:02 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:55:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But treating the state as somehow distinct due to its economic influence.... I'd consider that to be a special pleading fallacy.

The State is different because it has legal influence over all corporations.

As said before, polycentric law courts have legal influence; definitionally of course.
As for all corporations - again false - you cannot limit something domestically.
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/13/2012 2:02:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:57:02 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:55:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
But treating the state as somehow distinct due to its economic influence.... I'd consider that to be a special pleading fallacy.

The State is different because it has legal influence over all corporations.

By what authority? The authority of those who willingly pay them to do so. If people didn't pay the government, the government's influence would not be so large that they could get people to believe that the "legality" isn't just a semantical magic trick to hide the fact that their "legal authority" is nothing more than compliance of those who are threatened.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/13/2012 2:06:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 11:08:49 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
However, in a society without a legal court presiding over all corporations, innovations cannot be legally enforced via potents or copyrights. As a result, rivalling firms can easily steal new innovations from innovative firms. This reduces the incentive to innovate by a lot.

Anarchists do not oppose courts (though most an-caps oppose intellectual property). Also there are other incentives to be innovative aside from strictly profiting as much as possible.

In short, in a society without a government, the appropriability of innovation is very low.

For the 1000th time, anarchy = anti-State, not anti-government.

In conclusion, an anarcho-capitalist society might actually stagnate innovation, instead of encourage it.

I really don't see why an an-cap society would stagnate innovation. People can and absolutely still would profit in an an-cap society, meaning the same incentive is still there. In fact you can argue that an an-cap society would foster a better environment for competition thereby forcing people to be more innovative if they really want to profit. Also courts and other legal protections would still exist. One might also argue that a leftist anarchist society (say a heavily unionized one) would provide more opportunities to more people, thereby increasing the opportunity for innovation though perhaps becoming as rich as possible might not be the motive or even desired result.
President of DDO
Lordknukle
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5/13/2012 2:08:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:59:08 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:52:57 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:47:59 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:43:00 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:40:53 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

That is currently the case. Each country has its own courts. As for authority - that is solely dependent on what is recognized. I won't condescend to explain a polycentric legal system to you.

This currently solely regards domestic disputes only.

But what is the difference? If the supposed disincentives don't exist abroad, why would they suddenly exist in a domestic situation?

No invention's aproppriability can equal to "1." This is just impossible as eventually rival companies will catch on and foreign companies will as well. Both domestic and foreign companies are striving for the same achievement, so when you neutralize one threat (domestic), aproppriability obviously increases. It need not reach "1" for it to be profitable to innovate.

So (limited) force should be used to ensure certain products success? That sounds familiar. Government should not pick winners and losers. The best product should win. If anyone can produce a product - they should be able to sell it.
If innovation becomes an issue, corporations would provide incentives to individuals.

The point is that there won't be any incentive to innovate with a lack of intellectual property rights because aproppriability will be 0.

You are completely ignoring that and simply following your ideological viewpoint of that all government intervention is bad.

Tell me, how would you provide an incentive to innovate with appropriate appropriability in a anarcho-capitalist society and no intellectual property laws enforced by a broader authority?

The point is that no court can be recognized to have power over all corporations unless they all willingly consent, which is highly unlikely.

Why would they need power of all corporations?

If you cannot enforce a patent on all corporations, then it will be stolen by rivals.

As I said before, that doesn't exist currently (due to the anarchy between states) so why is there an inherent difference between foreign competition and an an-cap society?

Mentioned previously.

It's the difference between 0 and 0.5.

It would not be 0. Obviously. There would just be a smaller catchment field. There are still courts. For an analogy, consider a smaller nation compared to a larger one. The smaller nations court has authority over a fewer number of people and resolves fewer disputes. Are there any less incentives for innovation in smaller nations? Of course not. Competing courts would do the same.

In an anarcho-capitalist society, the courts would not be able to invoke any authority without the use of force over non-consenting firms or individuals. Sound familiar?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/13/2012 2:08:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:57:02 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The State is different because it has legal influence over all corporations.

The State gives itself legal legitimacy. It's not inherent. In another society particular agencies as determined by the self-governed can have legal influence over businesses. You don't need the State.
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Danielle
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5/13/2012 2:09:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:53:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The government is merely a business with a very effective marketing department.

And army.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/13/2012 2:09:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 2:09:26 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:53:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The government is merely a business with a very effective marketing department.

And army.

And payroll.
President of DDO
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/13/2012 2:19:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 1:56:09 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:53:48 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:39:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/13/2012 1:32:24 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why are you equating lack of government with lack of courts?

With a lack of government, there will be no single court which can recognize patents and copyrights and uphold them with authority.

No warrant as to the justification of patents and copyrights. A large portion of self-described market anarchists don't think courts should recognize them in the first place.

In that case, aproppriability becomes 0 and innovation highly stagnates.

Warrant please? Why do you assume that revenue us impossible to generate without a monopoly on what others do with THEIR own property?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/13/2012 2:21:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The payroll and military are natural results of an effective marketing department, and they only make the marketing more effective.

Still, fundamentally it is belief that gives the government or state power. If the soldiers didn't believe, would they be effective? If the people didn't believe, would the government even exist?

Very effective marketing. When the marketing of the current state loses effectiveness, the state will fall, only to be replaced by n institution with a better PR and advertising department.

It's all economics. It's all the result of capitalism. Even under communist rule, in the most restrictive rule you can think of, fundamentally, the world rests on the canvas of anarchy and capitalism
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp